That’s ‘doubt’ not ‘don’t’ :smack:
I believe (and could be wrong) that the positive stage has passed, and that we are in the negative stage.
Every part of us is a product of uncertiainty. Every physical element exists because the universe is inherently unpredictable and random. (That’s just high-school physics.) So it seems ludicrous to suggest that our minds can only behave in unpredictable or unprecedented ways with some outside intervention.
I do not believe we’re in an agnostic or atheist society (apathetic, sure, but that’s nothing to do with religion). However, nobody in Britain asks other people about their beliefs. To do so would be very very rude. Not until you’re very close friends. And often not even then. It’s seen as a much more private and personal matter than seems to be the case in the States.
P.S. I don’t mean any disrespect by this, it’s just that you get a lot of people saying “We live in strange times” on the media, and the general impression that this is true and it’s religion’s fault.
So maybe the media is just giving me a bad impression of things, or maybe it’s not. Do we live in a ‘climate of fear’ or don’t we? It could be that religion remains mostly harmless ( 
)
[QUOTE=JohnBckWLD]
[ul][li]Why do you spell it the way you do?[]Is it to drive home a point or is it just a force of habit?[]Do you use the word Og in leiu of God on a regular basis?[/ul][/li][/quote]
[ul]
[li]Just because I have an attitude, I guess. ;)[/li][li]I may’ve started doing it to make a point. I’ll explain below.[/li][li]No. Og smash, not take place of deities in conversation.[/li][/ul]
No. In most written work, I see the “gods” and “goddesses” spelled with lower-case gs. I see no reason not to spell the singular the same way, since the capital-g god is usually reserved specifically for the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity and I don’t see what makes that one different.
What’s the first thing you think when you hear the word “soul”? Do you have you’re own definition for this word?
Absolutely, but randomness is not the same as free will. That just explains how people could be non-deterministic, there is more to free will than random choices.
I don’t worry much about the free will question myself. As far as I’m concerned having the illusion of free will is indistinguishable from actually having it, but it’s a good way to get atheists thinking about beliefs, and helped me understand theists a bit better.
That’s a good one. And difficult. It’s a battle between my logical mind and my ‘feeling’ mind.
My logical says ‘no’, my ‘feeling’ mind says there is a ‘me’. There is something experiencing the world through this physical body. I guess I’ll have to think hard about this one. What do other atheists think?
Atheist here. I don’t think faith itself is either positive or negative. It really depends on what you have faith in. For example, I find spirituality (faith that there are higher states of being) to be positive, while I find religious dogma (faith that a specific set of rules and events are the exact will of God) to be negative.
I can respect a belief in god(s) and/or higher states of being, even if I don’t share it. However, I think people who claim to know the mind of their god(s) to the point that they feel comfortable telling others what is or isn’t the will of said god(s) are missing the point of “higher power”.
I’m not sure I understand how the “do we have free will?” or “did life just happen?” questions relate to atheism. Obviously the idea that our actions and decisions have been pre-ordained by god(s) or humans being created from clay requires a theist belief, but the opposite is not true. Our evolution from single-celled organisms into free-willed humans doesn’t preclude the existence of gods or higher states of being.
Aretha.
Seriously, it depends on the context. Often it means little different than other terms such as ‘humanity’, ‘mankind’, and yes, ‘free will’. All are purely human perceptions, and are not natural states.
Basically, once I get a clear and specific definition of ‘soul’ from religion, I’ll feel compelled to offer a clear and specific alternative.
What a great discussion! Here’s my two cents as a 47 year white female living in the bible belt…
I was borned and raised Catholic. Not fanatical, but it was a major part of my life. I left the church at age 12. It offered nothing. It demanded everything. So the church part of believing went first. Then went the…well, believing part.
I’m an atheist because nothing else makes any sense. The myth of a divine Jesus, God, the resurrection and the rest sounds to me worth exactly the same level of belief as any other ancient religious system. Everyone always talked about pagan religions—the Egyptians, the Druids, the Greeks and the rest. I was left wondering what the heck determined that THOSE religions were wrong, but THIS religion was right. Did it come with some kind of seal of approval? What did I miss? Then I read the bible. Three times. Were people kidding? This thing didn’t make any kind to foundation for belief. There was massive cruelty, betrayals, random murders, petty revenge and, most important, contradictions without number.
So I’m an atheist. What if I’m wrong? Who cares? I’ll be dead. What if I’m right? Who cares, I’ll still be dead.
I believe in morality, I believe in love, I believe in compassion, I believe in acting everyday as though you’re writing your own epitath and you want it to be something you’d be proud to read if you DO survive in an afterlife.
For what it’s worth, I’m going on almost 25 years of marriage to my first and only husband. We’ve never been unfaithful to each (of course, I really only know about me…) I have two fine sons, who are moral, upright and decent human beings. I took them to church when they were little so that they would have a basis for their own judgements. I don’t know which way they’ll go, but I think they’re leaning towards atheism.
I don’t share my lack of theological belief willy-nilly, but I make no great secret of it, either. I spell God with a capital out of inertia more than anything else. I sometimes envy people their faith, simply because life is easier if you can just pawn everything off onto someone or something else. But I would never try to argue someone out of something that gave them comfort and strength. That would be mean, and more importantly, pointless. Atheism is a state that has to be reached through real thought. Belief is just draped over your shoulders.
Another atheist jumping in.
Neither, or both, depending on your interpretation of my view. I believe that religion in general is a corollary to and an artifact of civilization. See Pascal Boyer’s book Religion Explained for a more detailed analysis, but in short, the set of cognitive and cultural tools that allows us to live and function together in social groups is intimately tied to the behavioral programming and psychological foundation that taken altogether give rise to religious beliefs as either a side effect or a central prerequisite.
And when you get right down to it, whether somebody is religious or not has very little to do with whether they’re an asshole or not. Some religious people are wonderful; some are jerks. Some atheists are wonderful; some are jerks. Some of the trappings and effects of religion are good; some not so. But then, the trappings and effects of civilization itself can be viewed the same way. So to me, you can’t say religion is a net positive or a net negative; it is what it is.
And re Pascal’s Wager, what Sampiro said.
A ghost. The being that’s looking out through my eyeballs. Consciousness. Self-awareness, if not intelligence.
For all practical purposes; the mind within a brain. If a “spirit” really exists, the brain is where it “lives.”
I don’t know if “souls” really exist in the mystical sense. It’d be nice, but I doubt it. I’m not getting my hopes up.
I don’t worry about free will. Every action is the result of tons of others, but does that mean it’s not real? I don’t know. It’s just a phrase anyway. Even if it doesn’t exist, we all live with the illusion that it does, so we have to act accordingly.
As far as soul goes, I mostly hear it in the context of music these days, but I always leave it out when I’m reviewing concerts. I think the notion that some people have it and some don’t is just absurd, it’s a question of what kind of music and playing touches you. Never seems to have anything to do with the musicians. I understand what “soul” means to most people, I think- usually ‘essence,’ or ‘that which makes a person who he/she is,’ or ‘consciousness,’ or ideas along that line. I do understand that people want something of themselves and the people they love to survive after they die. For a while after I gave up on the religion thing - maybe another two years - I tried to keep believing in souls and the afterlife, because I don’t think anybody could deny the idea has some very appealing aspects. In time, I realized that I didn’t think any of these things were true, I was just telling myself what I wanted to hear, and that wasn’t what I set out to do when I decided to find my own way on these kinds of matters.
I’m 49, married 21 years, have one son and was in the United Church rather than Catholic. other than that, exactly what wonder9 said.
I would normally use “a” or “your” god, so I never capitalise. Free will? Within biological imperatives, yes. Soul? An aspect of the brain.
What wonder9 said, and so well.
While I am not an atheist. I am a mix between an Agnostic and what would probably be considered the New Age Spirituality stuff, man.
Being Raised Catholic ( TM) I always had my doubts about The Whole Enchilada.
I was fascinated by the saints. Believing in God so much that you would give it all up to worship him or die/be martyred for your beleifs. These saints were my idols when I was younger. (That and the fact I was allowed to read one book in church, The Book of Saints, so that beat the mass any time.) I wanted to be a saint.
But one saint bothered me. St. Rose of Lima (Peru, not Ohio.) Apparently the daughter of a wealthy man, she was not only a great catch but very, very beautiful. All she wanted to do was serve God. That’s fine and dandy. Well, the guys kept coming around and she felt that this and the probable marriage that her father was looking to hook her up with would detract her ability to serve God.
So, she decided to make herself less appealing. She rubbed her face with something like pepper or shards of glass or something equally scary and creepy to marr her beauty on a permanent basis. It left her free to worship God as she wanted .
As a kid, this disturbed me greatly but I didn’t rightly know why.
When I got older, was flipping through the Book of Saints, it opened automatically to St. Rose of Lima. With an adult eye I was able to discern that if Rose did this in this age she would be declared mentally ill and put away until she could not harm herself anymore.
Which is why don’t see Saints being declared on such a rapid basis anymore because I think a combination of a larger veiw of the world ( not just the village), greater education overall and medical science saying that hermitry/self infliction/ hearing Gods Voice ( like my patron saint Joan of Arc)/hypochondria or whatever is a little odd.
That and the fact that in Christianity there are over 25,000 different variations.
Everyone fighting against each other for the most part over the same thing. How to celebrate God.
It.is.insane.
It’s like football, people. A whole bunch of teams, but on the same sport. All working towards the Superbowl.
Philosophical / Political Queries
1." Religion is the opiate of the masses":
A. True
B. True with regards to organized religions, False with regard to individual beliefs
C. False (With a couple of exceptions)
-
Abortion is:
A. A medical procedure. I disagree with any type of regulation put upon it.
B. OK in the 1st trimester but in some cases should be regulated or restricted
C. Akin to murder -
Capital Punishment for 1st Degree Murderers is:
A. Never acceptable
B. Sometimes necessary
C. Fine with me. An eye for an eye / tooth for a tooth. -
As a general rule, athiests tend to be:
A. More intelligent than theists
B. I can not discern much difference between the intelligence of atheists & theists
C. Not as intelligent than theists -
As a general rule, theists tend to be:
A. Less independent thinkers than atheists.
B. I can not discern much difference between the independent thought processes of atheists & theists
C. More inderpendent thinkers than athiests -
If I were to come across an elderly nun standing at an intersection:
A. I probably wouldn’t ask her if she needed assistance. Let a religious person or her ‘God’ help her.
B. This is a stupid question. What’s next?
C. I’d be more likely to help her. Even though I don’t share her faith, I do note the good she tries to do for others. -
If a huge scientific discovery was made that literally shook the faith of the world’s theists, I forsee:
A. A massive conversion of people’s faith away from their religious beliefs
B. Very little conversion or change in theist’s faith. -
I consider my politics:
A. Far-Left Progressive
B. Close to the US Democrat Party
C. Close to the US GOP
D. Hard-Right Conservative -
As a general rule, athiests tend to respect other living things more theists:
A. True. Because athiets don’t believe in an afterlife and cherish it more on Earth.
B. False. The theists I’ve come across tend to respect life as much atheists -
I see my atheism as:
A. A system of beliefs and tenets that I share with fellow atheists.
B. An individual belief that I rarely discuss with others
Sorry Lob–it was a joke. A very small one.
True, when the phrase is returned to its original context:
“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
A medical procedure. The only restrictions should come into force once we can regard the foetus as a sentient concious being - and yes, I don’t know enough about the topic to say when this is. But there should be no other grounds for any regulation.
Murder.
Define intelligence, and I’ll tell you 
Some theists are deeply independent thinkers - often they’re the ones who have questioned their faith and returned to it (or changed it). There’s deeply profound atheists, and moronically apathetic ones.
This is a stupid question. What’s next?
There’s been plenty such discoveries already. Religion has a more powerful hold than that.
Hard-left on a European basis (ie way off the US scale).
Impossible to make such a generalisation one way or the other.
I don’t see it as a belief or belief-system. I see it as an acknowledgment that religious beliefs are a human contruct. (See Marx…)
I have had a fairly extraordinary opportunity in this regard that I’d like to share here, if I may.
I have a webpage on my site that explains why I’m an atheist. I get the very occassional “You worship SATAN and you will BURN IN HELL!!!1!,” e-mail and much more frequently I get complimentary e-mails both from fellow atheists and also from believers.
But I also once got an e-mail from someone who said that he was thinking of becoming an atheist, and he wanted to talk about it. We had quite a long correspondence. This person was a veteran, and a paramedic. He had seen a lot of terrible things. (One day in the course of our correspondance he sent me a message saying that the night before, he had treated a little girl whose father had stabbed her with a kitchen knife.) He was having a hard time believing in a God that would let such terrible things happen, and was feeling a lot of anger toward God, but yet, he was also afraid that he would simply be overwhelmed with horror if he did not beleive that ultimately, a loving God has some kind of plan for the world.
Wow.
I definitely did not make an attempt to convince him to become an atheist. I am much younger than him. I have had a very comfortable life. I have never had to suffer through a personal tragedy. I felt like I was in no position to try to sway him one way or another.
Mainly, I just asked him a lot of questions. When he saw something terrible happen, what were his thoughts about the meaning of that event in the grand scheme of things? Did he believe in good and evil? How much influence did he believe that God has over the world? If nobody believed in God, how did he think the world would be different? When he helps someone, did he feel like he was making a difference in the world? Did he feel that he was an instrument of God’s will whenever he did something good? Did he feel like he was an instrument of God’s will when he did something bad, as well?
Ultimately, the conversation to this: Did believing in God make the world make more sense to him, or less?
I don’t think that we can choose our beliefs (á la the assumptions of Pascal’s Wager.) I think that ultimately we have to believe in what makes sense to us. I got the impression in talking to this guy that he was constantly struggling to cram a square peg (his observations of the world around him) into a round hole (his belief in a loving God.) If this were not the case, if he was telling me that when he looked at a person who was suffering, and he thought, ‘This is God’s plan,’ and that gave him some sense of relief and comfort, then I would have told him, “You believe in God, my friend. Go forth and have a long and happy life.” But that’s not what he told me. So I just kept asking questions.
I urged him to talk to the pastor of the church his family attends, or any other spiritual leader he felt comfortable speaking too. I asked if he had any friends who drew comfort from their faith, and suggested that talk to them about what he was going through. Also, I recommended that he talk to a counselor at work (I assume that paramedics probably have access to such services) and see if just talking through things, without necessarily making reference to God would be helpful.
I sometimes felt like I was being too wishy-washy, but ultimately, I didn’t want to convince him that God doesn’t exist. I mean, that’s what I truly believe, but what do I actually gain by convincing him? All I really wanted was for him to come around to a view of the world that made him feel like he was doing right by his fellow man, day by day. If that worldview included God, then I admit I would have been slightly disappointed, but the last thing I wanted was to browbeat him into the sort of angry, unhappy atheist who decides not to believe in God in order to spite Him.
He never did say what he decided in the end. Every once in a while he e-mails me a poem that he has written or read, all of them about soldiers and war, and I ask him how he’s doing, but he doesn’t reply.
I hope that I had some kind of a positive impact on his life.