Ask the Atheist.

[Cliffy]

Interesting thread.

@Chastain86

But I’m curious – are there specific reasons you don’t believe in a higher power?

I never really have, although I used to say I did when I was a kid and hadn’t really thought about it. I wasn’t raised in a religious household; Dad is Jewish and my mom is Protestant, neither of them devout, so for me religion was primarily the context for holidays.

But in hindsight, I think that the absence of a god is obvious. (There’s presumably some possibility that a superior being exists and created the universe, although I doubt it, but this being couldn’t be much like the God that the monotheisms worship, and doesn’t deserve any worship himself.) It seems plain to me that the traditional Christian concept of God cannot exist because of the Problem of Suffering (what most refer to as the Problem of Evil), and, were an omniscient and omnipotent being to exist, then he’s an asshole.

Second part to that question – what if you’re wrong?

I’m not – see above.

@badomen

Do you as an actively atheistic person try to convert other people to atheism?

I don’t spend a lot of time on this, but yes, I do proselytize, for similar reasons as others do – I think theists are wasting time, money and tears on a fiction, and I think they’ll be better off if they realize the truth.

@Aagramn

As an atheist, do you believe in free will?

No, but my understanding of free will didn’t come until rather later than my atheism. I don’t believe in free will because either causality rules the universe, in which case all our actions are simply the result of the physical processes that led up to them, or causality doesn’t rule the universe, in which case there’s no reason for our choices.

As to JohnBckWLD’s first question, I’ve got one of those Darwin fish on my car. I’m frequently frustrated by how many theists (Chistians, primarily) assume that everyone believes as they do and that there’s nothing wrong with imposing their religious views on secular institutions, so I’ve got the fish to remind people that not everyone believes as they do. Also to piss people off.

–Cliffy

[Cliffy]

@Chastain86

In the whole Pascal’s Theory way of thinking, there will be no tangible penalty for believing in God if God does NOT exist.

One more thing – Pascal is painly wrong about this. There are many tangible, temporal consequences to faith which I’m happy not to have to deal with, from the relatively trivial (sleeping in on Sundays, eating shellfish) to the more significant (tithing, refusing medical treatment, etc.).

–Cliffy

[wonder9]

@JohnBckWLD

Philosophical / Political Queries

1." Religion is the opiate of the masses":

True.
You betcha and who am I to deny solace of any kind to someone who is suffering? That’s why I do not attempt to convince the faithful of the folly of faith.

2. Abortion is:
   A. A medical procedure. I disagree with any type of regulation put upon it.

It is a medical procedure albeit one fraught with far more emotional potholes than others. (As an aside…if abortion is murder, why aren’t all miscarriages investigated as murders as well? And why is this ‘murder’ okay in the case of rape or incest? I like my fanatics to be constitent.)

3. Capital Punishment for 1st Degree Murderers is:
   B. Sometimes necessary

I’m a hardheaded person. Life in prison is too expensive an option for those who view other human beings as prey.

4. As a general rule, athiests tend to be:
   [INDENT]A. More intelligent than theists

Of course, I only know a few personally. Maybe I just run with a particularly gifted crowd . On the other hand, the list of famous atheists certainly seems heavy with spectacularly brilliant people, from Stephan J. Gould—my personal hero—to George Bernard Shaw.

5. As a general rule, theists tend to be:
   C. More inderpendent thinkers than athiests

It seems to me that if the only reason you make moral choices is because somebody is looking over your shoulder waiting to smite thee, you’re not making these decisions independently.

6. If I were to come across an elderly nun standing at an intersection:

None of the above. As an elderly person, she is entitled to my care and respect whether she is wearing a habit or a clown suit.

7. If a huge scientific discovery was made that literally shook the faith of the world’s theists, I forsee:
   B. Very little conversion or change in theist’s faith.

Faith wouldn’t be faith if it responded to rational arguements or scientific discoveries.

8. I consider my politics:

sadly, infrequently and with little hope of the future.

9. As a general rule, athiests tend to respect other living things more theists:

I don’t see a huge amount of respect in general. There are those who value humans over all other living things. There are those who value all OTHER living things above humans. There are few who seem to see things as a balance.

10. I see my atheism as:

It isn’t a belief, or system of beliefs. I don’t BELIEVE there is no God. God just doesn’t make any rational sense to me.

[wonder9]

@wonder9

constitent.

conSIStent. Drat. And here I was feeling smug because a previous poster (who shall remain nameless) misspelled the word atheist through out an entire, long post. How the worm can turn…

[B.Serum]

1." Religion is the opiate of the masses"

A. Almost true. I think a great many people use it as others do a drug – to get a high or to help them cope with the pain of that life can deliver – but I don’t know if opium is the necessarily the best metaphor.

2. Abortion is:

B. OK in the 1st trimester but I get increasingly uncomfortable with the procedure as the delivery date approaches

3. Capital Punishment for 1st Degree Murderers is:

B. Sometimes necessary. I would recommend it for recidivists.

4. As a general rule, athiests tend to be:

B. I can not discern much difference between the intelligence of atheists & theists. Both can be pretty boneheaded.

5. As a general rule, theists tend to be:

C. More independent thinkers than athiests, in America anyway. Most people are raised in an environment where even if religion is not practiced, the concept of God is generally accepted. Only independent thought can lead you out of such a state of indoctrinated theism.

6. If I were to come across an elderly nun standing at an intersection:

B. This is a stupid question. What’s next?

7. If a huge scientific discovery was made that literally shook the faith of the world’s theists, I forsee:

B. Very little conversion or change in theist’s faith. Faith exists independently from evidence.

8. I consider my politics:

B. Close to the US Democrat Party

9. As a general rule, athiests tend to respect other living things more theists:

B. False. The theists I’ve come across tend to respect life as much atheists.

10. I see my atheism as:

B. An individual belief that I rarely discuss with others. I don’t much care for proselytizing in any direction.

[Shirley_Ujest]

FTR, I would help the nun across the street, but not the clown.

[JohnBckWLD]

@Cliffy

…I’ve got one of those Darwin fish on my car. I’m frequently frustrated by how many theists (Chistians, primarily) assume that everyone believes as they do and that there’s nothing wrong with imposing their religious views on secular institutions, so I’ve got the fish to remind people that not everyone believes as they do. Also to piss people off.

Disclaimer: In my opinion, you can’t debate faith - or lack thereof. I completely respect the rights of individuals to express themselves in any non-violent way they see fit. I’m not even a religious person, but…

Seeing that you’re the first person I’ve come across (in an electronic sense) that proudly displays their Darwin Fish, I’m not going to let pass the opportunity to ask you a few things:

Knowing that your Darwin fish has the ability to “piss people off” why bother? I’m not towing the PC-line, I just don’t see any benefit to displaying one on a vehicle. Perhaps if I was still a 20-something art-student playing the role of angry young man, I might see the message more clearly.

Do you see any difference between a ‘Darwin is Still Right’ bumper sticker and a Darwin Fish? From my perspective, I don’t give the former a moments thought and ccan’t figure out why people see a need to put pro- or non. But, an emblem that bastardizes an Ichthus (symbol of Christ that so many hold dear) falls somewhere between obnoxious and repugnant (Quite similar in fact to Axl’s t-shirt: “AIDS Kills Fags Dead”)

Aren’t there any other symbols available to those who wish to wear their atheism on their proverbial sleeve? Maybe something like a Crucifix, Star of David & Crescent in a red circle with a line through it.

[Voyager]

I’m Jewish by birth. My father grew up in a devout family, but my mother didn’t. In fact I suspect my grandfather was a closet atheist. We didn’t do much religion until I got sent to Hebrew School when I was 9 so I could get bar mitzvahed, which in my neighborhool was a cultural thing. I did that, and even went to temple sometimes when I didn’t have to. But in high school I read the introduction to the Bible in our English book storage room, which I volunteered in, and discovered the scholarly work on who wrote the Bible. I has always assumed that all the stories I read were true. When I actually read it all the way through, in grad school, I was convinced that the traditional religious view of God was wrong (cap G means Judeo-Christian god, small g means generic god). I never believed in Jesus, which made life easier. BTW, I enjoyed my religious education, and am quite proud of my heritage. I still light Hanukah candles. I’m an atheist purely for intellectual reasons, not emotional ones.

I have two kids, youngest 18, both atheists. We got married in the Ethical Cultural Society (more because of the Jewish - Christian marriage problem) without God being mentioned, and since we’ve been married 26 years it obviously hasn’t hurt.

My rabbi never said God would burn anyone, so that wasn’t an issue, and if Christianity was right I’d be toast anyway. Pascal’s Wager has been well addressed. I don’t have a Darwin symbol, but I’ve never seen one directly for sale, and might get one. There are enough obnoxious Christian bumper stickers so I’d feel no remorse about displaying it.

A soul is just the artifact of an old belief, like humors or phlogiston. No such thing. I kind of believe in free will, because our brains are complex enough to be non-deterministic. But the seat of free will might be deeper than our consciousness, and we are not totally free, our behavior being genetically determined in some part. (But not totally.) Chaos theory implies free will.

Personal faith is fine. I have a problem with faith being translated into requirements for others. If you don’t want to take the name of the Lord in vain, fine. Just don’t try to stick me in jail because I do. (Non-controversial example chosen deliberately.)

But the biggest difference between atheists and theists I can see is that atheists end at how, and theists want to know why. I don’t think there has to be an answer to why, and it doesn’t bother me. From the appearance of mail to a car accident, I think that things just happen. Those who can’t accept this must invent a prime mover to explain it (though not very well).

[panache45]

@JoeSki

What’s the first thing you think when you hear the word “soul”? Do you have you’re own definition for this word?

As an atheist, I usually avoid the word “soul” (as well as “sin”), since it conjurs up so many religious connotations.

For a while, I equated soul with consciousness, since it’s my consciousness that is the bridge between external reality and the thing I experience as “me.” But what happens when we’re unconscious, as asleep or in a coma? Does our soul no longer exist, only to return when we awake?

So I now think the closest word I have to soul is our personality. It clearly defines us as a unique individual, and it’s still within us when we’re unconscious. But I do **not **believe it continues after death (or existed pre-birth), except metaphorically, in the memories of people still alive.

But in practice, I rarely use the word “soul,” because it would be very misleading. Although recently, I encountered a woman who believed that all classical music was “crap,” and I accused her of not having a soul.

[JohnBckWLD]

@panache45

Although recently, I encountered a woman who believed that all classical music was “crap,” and I accused her of not having a soul.

What would you have accused her of if she said the same thing about Sam Cooke? (Even though he did get his start singing gospel)

[duality72]

@JoeSki

What’s the first thing you think when you hear the word “soul”?

“It has no eyes.” But I listen to too much Roger Waters.

[duality72]

@JohnBckWLD

(Quite similar in fact to Axl’s t-shirt: “AIDS Kills Fags Dead”)

That was Sebastian Bach of Skid Row. I do seem to recall Axl once wearing a shirt that said “Eat Your Idols” with a picture of Jesus on it.

[Lobsang]

Philosophical / Political Queries

1." Religion is the opiate of the masses":
A. True
B. True with regards to organized religions, False with regard to individual beliefs
C. False (With a couple of exceptions)

Don’t understand the question.

2. Abortion is:
A. A medical procedure. I disagree with any type of regulation put upon it.
B. OK in the 1st trimester but in some cases should be regulated or restricted
C. Akin to murder

B, I think. I sympathise with those who feel it is Akin to murder but I am moderately pro-choice.

3. Capital Punishment for 1st Degree Murderers is:
A. Never acceptable
B. Sometimes necessary
C. Fine with me. An eye for an eye / tooth for a tooth.

B
4. As a general rule, athiests tend to be:
A. More intelligent than theists
B. I can not discern much difference between the intelligence of atheists & theists
C. Not as intelligent than theists

The evidence of my experience leads to A. Sorry. You could argue that intelligence is not a factor. I am only saying I’ve seen more intelligent atheists and ignorant theists than ignorant atheists and intelligent theists. Blame the media.

5. As a general rule, theists tend to be:
A. Less independent thinkers than atheists.
B. I can not discern much difference between the independent thought processes of atheists & theists
C. More inderpendent thinkers than athiests

Logic tells me to say A (Others have given good reasons) but I haven’t experienced any direct examples of limited thought in theists so B.

6. If I were to come across an elderly nun standing at an intersection:
A. I probably wouldn’t ask her if she needed assistance. Let a religious person or her ‘God’ help her.
B. This is a stupid question. What’s next?
C. I’d be more likely to help her. Even though I don’t share her faith, I do note the good she tries to do for others.

I’d be as likely to help her as any other elderly lady.

7. If a huge scientific discovery was made that literally shook the faith of the world’s theists, I forsee:
A. A massive conversion of people’s faith away from their religious beliefs
B. Very little conversion or change in theist’s faith.

B. Sorry, but science has already come up with discoveries that you’d think would have shook the faith of the world’s theists but hasn’t. As someone else said - faith and fact are independent.
8. I consider my politics:
A. Far-Left Progressive
B. Close to the US Democrat Party
C. Close to the US GOP
D. Hard-Right Conservative

What’s progressive? My politics are far-left.

9. As a general rule, athiests tend to respect other living things more theists:
A. True. Because athiets don’t believe in an afterlife and cherish it more on Earth.
B. False. The theists I’ve come across tend to respect life as much atheists

I for one respect all living things. I have no idea what the general rule is.

10. I see my atheism as:
A. A system of beliefs and tenets that I share with fellow atheists.
B. An individual belief that I rarely discuss with others

B.

[Lobsang]

I was thinking about this thread last night on the walk home from work, specifically about when theists say they just ‘know’ God exists, or they’ve experienced god, and I eventually started pondering something…

(Fellow) Atheists: How would you describe the visual world to a person born blind?

Theists: Is this a good analogy for describing your faith if you replace ‘blind’ with ‘Atheist’ and ‘Visual world’ with ‘Spiritual world’?

[panache45]

@JohnBckWLD

What would you have accused her of if she said the same thing about Sam Cooke? (Even though he did get his start singing gospel)

Why Sam Cooke? I don’t understand what you’re getting at.

My answer to her would have been the same if her comment had been about any other genre of music that has evolved over many centuries and expressed every conceivable human emotion, from the depth of hopeless despair to the pinnacle of ecstatic joy.

If that also applies to Sam Cooke, then so be it.

[Ranchoth]

@JohnBckWLD

Philosophical / Political Queries

1." Religion is the opiate of the masses":

A., Often enough.

2. Abortion is:

A.

3. Capital Punishment for 1st Degree Murderers is:

C.

4. As a general rule, athiests tend to be:
   A. More intelligent than theists
   B. I can not discern much difference between the intelligence of atheists & theists
   C. Not as intelligent than theists

I don’t know—I haven’t seen a formal study.

5. As a general rule, theists tend to be:
   A. Less independent thinkers than atheists.
   B. I can not discern much difference between the independent thought processes of atheists & theists
   C. More inderpendent thinkers than athiests

Again, I don’t know.

6. If I were to come across an elderly nun standing at an intersection:

I’d probably just leave her alone, unless she was bleeding or something. (Or, surprise surprise, if she asked for help.)

7. If a huge scientific discovery was made that literally shook the faith of the world’s theists, I forsee:
   A. A massive conversion of people’s faith away from their religious beliefs
   B. Very little conversion or change in theist’s faith.

B.

8. I consider my politics:
   A. Far-Left Progressive
   B. Close to the US Democrat Party
   C. Close to the US GOP
   D. Hard-Right Conservative

B-1/2: I’m an extreme centrist.

9. As a general rule, athiests tend to respect other living things more theists:
   A. True. Because athiets don’t believe in an afterlife and cherish it more on Earth.
   B. False. The theists I’ve come across tend to respect life as much atheists

I don’t know—I’ve never checked.

10. I see my atheism as:
    A. A system of beliefs and tenets that I share with fellow atheists.
    B. An individual belief that I rarely discuss with others

I’d say B—I’m a pretty private person, and not much of a “joiner.”

[Marley23]

@JohnBckWLD

1." Religion is the opiate of the masses":

I’ll say true, especially having finally seen the original context. Yes, it can be a way to deal with people’s problems, yes, it can also dull their minds. It’s like a lot of other things in that regard.

2. Abortion is:

A. A medical procedure. I disagree with any type of regulation put upon it.

3. Capital Punishment for 1st Degree Murderers is:

A. Never acceptable

4. As a general rule, athiests tend to be:

*I’m not very comfortable with this question. I’ve never met a stupid atheist, and for most people, becoming an atheist involves considering your ideas in a way continuing the values of your parents does not. (This is not how it always goes, of course.) So perhaps they’ve thought about these matters more, but not always, and that only tangentially relates to intelligence.

5. As a general rule, theists tend to be:

Same as above. I don’t think these characteristics break down across atheist/theist lines. Some people like to be in a community. Many of them use religion for this purpose (my mother is one), but one of my best friends is an atheist who is a lifelong member of a Humanist group. I’m not really into the whole community thing. Perhaps atheists are a bit more independent, but I don’t think I could make a strong categorical statement about it.

6. If I were to come across an elderly nun standing at an intersection:

I’d help her if she needs it and if I wouldn’t feel too awkward about it.

7. If a huge scientific discovery was made that literally shook the faith of the world’s theists, I forsee:

Most faith seems to be immune to science. People who don’t automatically disregard science tend to incorporate it into their explanations of the world. I can’t think of any discovery offhand that would really count as a strike against the idea of god itself.

8. I consider my politics:

I’m not sure if it’s A or B. Probably depends on the issue or who you ask, so I’ll say somewhere in between. I’ve tried to cultivate a bit of a Libertarian streak in there.

9. As a general rule, athiests tend to respect other living things more theists:

I guess you wouldn’t see as many radical atheists as theists in terms of crazy disregard for human life, but I think the average for both is probably the same.

10. I see my atheism as:

*My own ideas (I strictly avoid the term ‘belief’). As I said above, I don’t really feel the need to be part of a spiritual community. However I very much enjoy talking to other atheists, more about issues related to atheism, politics in particular. I remain very concerned about issues like science in school and the separation of church and state in America, because I don’t think our rights are given as much respect as they should be. These aren’t matters of concern only to atheists, but I think they concern all atheists.

[JohnBckWLD]

@panache45

Why Sam Cooke? I don’t understand what you’re getting at…

Sorry. Bad pun. Only mentioned him cause he was the first “soul” singer that came to mind (other than Aretha who was already mentioned).

[Marley23]

Not only do I not pray, I don’t code properly. :smack:

[Zap_Rowsdower]

@Chastain86

There seems to be an almost unspoken belief among all that practice theism that their faith is just innate – they simply “know” that their God exists, and they live their life according to the principles of that God and that belief.

But I’m curious – are there specific reasons you don’t believe in a higher power?

I haven’t read all the posts yet, but I’ll add my bit, even though it has probable been said better by someone already.

I don’t know why I don’t believe in a higher power. I was raised in the Catholic, then Episcopal church, joined church youth groups, choir, alter boy, and tried to fit in with the others. I never recall a time where I feel that deep down I believed. I recall always equating God, Santa, the Loch Ness Monster, etc. as made up stories adults told children. Actually, that may not be true because when I was in grade school I did believe in the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot because there was “evidence” that pointed to them being real. There was never any similar “evidence” that indicated God or Santa was real.

Various things over the years have reinforced my lack of belief in a god.

1. Why would it care if I fall on my knees and say that I am a bad person or not.
2. The concept of god is huge, for want of a better word, why would I be punished for not being able to comprehend it.
3. It seems rather obvious to me that religion is the “opiate” of the masses. Life can be cruel and painful, but religion gives you the promise of an afterlife in paradise. Atheism does not offer a positive message, life on Earth is it, so people find belief more satisfying.

Second part to that question – what if you’re wrong?

If I am wrong, surely any supreme being would know that I was honest with myself and did the best I could and wouldn’t punish me for using the mind it gave me. I know plenty of church going people who either have no more belief in god than I do or who are rather bad people. In spite of going to church every Sunday, I can’t believe any diety would say, Monday thru Saturday you were a lying, deceitful jerk, but since you went through the motions, you get into heaven.