I think it was out of genuine curiousity, not meant to make me feel bad. BUT, this does happen alot. It has all to do with the fact that they are not black. I mean, if you like a hairstlye on someone do you want to touch it? do you gawk like you’ve never, ever seen curly red hair on anyone before? Even if i had a big ol’ afro, long straight hair, dreadlocks or braids, I am always asked ‘can i touch it?’.
Black people do bathe as any other average person would in North America. I think this has alot to do with diet. For example, i don’t know a single black person that would eat a steak rare or even medium rare. yet i know tons of white people who order that on the regular. the hygiene thing i also think is cultural. i remeber for the longest time,when i was younger, everytime i saw a soap commercial and all the white people were bathing with just soap and water…i thought it was the grossest thing. Where i’m from (Ghana, West Africa) We’ve always used a variation on what is called a loofah in North America…so i’d say more cultural than anything
i think the reason why Black people feel more free to say what they think is because most of us were never at liberty to do so before. i personally don’t think in terms of ‘s/he is racist because s/he said all black people are good dancers’ or ‘all asians are good at math’. To me, the racist are those who want their race to be more superior than others, those that want to hold others back because of their skin colour. Anything other than that is either 1. an actual fact that people are afraid to admit. 2. a stereotype, which is really a generalization. it has to come from somewhere. someone out there is helping to perpetuate it on both sides. 3. ignorance. because you don’t know or don’t want to know can skew a persons’ view.
When I say, you haven’t ever seen a white person trying to act black, here’s my meaning – Have you never seen a white person who you thought "Wow, that white boy is really trying to act like [subset behavior of black population (hip-hop, reggae, gangsta, etc.)] Yes, while I realize that these subsets are not at all indicative of the whole group and that there is a very good chance that average black person joe schmoe may not fit into any of those subsets, the fact remains that the characteristics of those subsets were created and made popular by black folks. And white people imitate them.
Kind of a mouthful, huh?
Also, while mentioning this thread to the lady, she asked me ask you if there is no such thing as “acting black”, then how come she got picked on in a predominantly black school for “acting white”?
So, vivian, I’m still interested in knowing the answer to my question about Black women being hypersensitive to the male gaze, more so than other kinds of women. If you can corroborate my perception or if it’s just my imagination (it may not be just my imagination as I’ve been observing this consistently for years). I’ve never had the chance to ask a Black woman about it until now.
**OK, I’ve gotta call ya on this one. Because I put up with this shit every frigging day, too.
I’m as white as you can get short of albino and I’ve got copper-colored hair down to my butt (total recessive, that’s me ;)). Many people - black, white, brown, pink, yellow, and green - are fascinated with my hair and will treat me much as you’ve described here. Hell, strangers walk up to me and start playing with it - they don’t even bother to ask. For that matter, small children (almost all of em, as far as I can tell) are apparently petrified by my hair.
Are all of these people racist because they feel they have the right to muck with my hair? Nuh-uh. They’re just rude assholes. Were those women racist? My bet is no. YMMV.
My question is about the role ‘black community leader’. People shown on the news often have this title captioned under them when speaking about racial issues.
Are these elected positions? Do you vote for community leaders? Or is it just someone who is opinionated and speaking loudly on any particular subject? Do black people meet as a community and discuss such issues, to the point where it would make sense to have a community leader? Where/when is this done? The only thing I could think of would be at church, but then it really isn’t a community gathering, it is a religious one and therefore not representative of the community as a whole?
Biggirl, I have no idea what you are objecting to.
I’ve given a couple real world examples of what black people do without ascribing it to individual blacks.
As I said, television viewing habits differ vastly between blacks as a group and whites as a group. I do not think that all blacks are the same or that all whites are the same and that no whites watch a black show and no blacks whatch white shows.
Take the top 15 shows among whites. Take the top 15 shows among blacks. Except for Monday Night Football, there is historically no overlap. (The last report I saw had ER as the most watched show among whites, while it was only the 20th most watched show among blacks.) Now, if a white person watches none of the shows in the top 15 for whites but watches all of the top 15 shows among blacks, I think it is fair and honest to say that the person is behaving in a way most commonly associated with blacks; or, in a single aspect of life, “acting black” and vice versa (it helps if you use the “behavior” definition of act than if you use the “pretending” definition). I don’t think there is any value statement in that sentence. I don’t think it is wrong to behave either way. I don’t think there is any genetic reason for the different behavioral patterns. It just is.
Yes, the variation on an individual level is so great as to overwhelm the group differences. However, if I told you I have a person in the next room who watches/watched Moesha regularly, and threatened to shoot you unless you could guess that persons race, then I’m guessing you would go with the most likely answer of “black”. If you would honestly say “I have no reason to expect one race over another, we’re all individuals” then we’ll just have to disagree.
My point was that just because you believe stereotypes should not exist does not mean they don’t. You can thank myself, along with the rest of the world for their continued popularity. I am sorry if you are offended by them, but that’s just how it is. I have no problem with employing stereotypes, even if you wish to label me a bigot.
My point was that just because you believe stereotypes should not exist does not mean they don’t. You can thank myself, along with the rest of the world for their continued popularity. I am sorry if you are offended by them, but that’s just how it is. I have no problem with employing stereotypes, even if you wish to label me a bigot. Please feel free to quote only parts of my post so that it can be taken out of context. Thank you.
Okay, I’m finding it really disturbing in this thread how folks are equating “acting black or white” with trends they see presented in the media. [sigh] Since when did a television show or gangsta rappers become experts on black culture? As far as these ratings that list shows that more blacks watch as opposed to whites and vice versa, if they are accurate, why do you think a black person is more inclined toward a show like “Moesha”? I think that perhaps it’s because there are not that many shows out there that feature black people and that would be a compelling reason to watch the few shows that do. However, I don’t think that there’s anything particularly specific about black culture in a show like “Moesha” besides the fact that it features a predominantly black cast. Mind you, I could be wrong because I’ve not seen any episodes of this show.
But I’m just having a really difficult time wrapping my mind around the concept of media representations of blacks and tv show ratings (!) determining a person’s blackness or whiteness. Come on people. So I’m not black if I’ve never watched “Moesha,” or if I don’t smoke blunts, drink 40s, wear gangsta rapper clothes and listen to rap music, and I’m white if I watch “ER,” prefer single malt Scotch to 40s, and have no particular preference for gangsta rap or the gangsta rap look. I see now. Thank you for clarifying that for me.
I don’t understand you people, just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean its not true or that you should look down on someone because they believe it. I’m a minority myself and i understand perfectly what vivian is trying to say. If im playing a basketball game and i got a black guy and a white guy to choose from for my team, same height, weight and athletic build and without knowing either of them 9 times out of 10 i would pick the black guy. Actually make that ten out of ten, does that make me a racist? a bigot? well i’m sorry you feel that way, im just playing the numbers. Chances are the black guy is better at basketball than the white guy, chances are an asian guy will be better than someone of another race at math. There are some things i like as a person, and there are some things i like because im hispanic. We are all different, but we are all deeply influenced by our culture, and ignoring or “disliking” the fact that some of this differences are part of a bigger cultural or racial difference rather than the individual person is pretty ignorant in itself.
Where have I said that media representations of blacks determine a persons “blackness” or “whiteness”. I am simply saying that taken as a group, black and white respond differently to television shows.
Whites, as a very large group, respond in one way. Blacks, as a very large group, respond in another. The individuals in either group are spread all across the spectrum.
I would say that it is possible to say that a person in Group A who consistently behaves in the manner of group B is “acting” B. I think it is possible to say that without passing judgment in any way.
TV viewing habits is just one example. Biggirl asked for an example of black behavior.
There is a whole section of hair cair products in my grocery store that seem to be targeted to blacks. I’m sure there are whites and others who use the products but their use is a predominantly black behavior. Membership in the NAACP is a predominantly black behavior. Membership in the Klu Klux Klan is a predominantly white behavior. Wearing platform flip-flops is a predominantly Japanese behavior (or it was at one time). Speaking with a British accent is a predominantly British behavior. Playing video games is a predominantly male behavior.
There are countless examples of things that are predominantly done by some sub-group of society. If a person consistently engages in behaviors more commonly associated with a sub-group to which they do not belong, then why is it so wrong to say that they are “acting like that group”.
It is wrong to place a judgment or value on that statement, but I don’t think the statement itself is inherently wrong.
I mean can you really deny that for any particular aspect of culture, there is an average behavior? Can you deny that any sub-group will have an average behavior and that it may vary from the overall average? If someone, intentionally or otherwise, skews from the averages of their sub-group towards that of another, aren’t they “acting” like the other.
How about instead of saying “acting black” or “acting white”, we say a person “tends to behave in way more commonly associated with the overall group behaviors of American Sub-Group G”? Is that better or more acceptable?
You’ve told us that you’re 24 years old and have lived in Canada for 21 years. When were you repressed? You don’t have parents or grandparents who would remember segregation because they lived in Africa, and in the last 24 years society has moved towards acceptance. You’ve told us that Canadians on the whole aren’t as rude as Americans towards black people. How badly have you been discriminated against that it makes you leap upon an opportunity to insult white people? And would you ignore or forgive a white person for doing the same to you?
On occasion, white people face discrimination for whatever reason - their religion, their looks, their sex, their intelligence, even their skin colour. Everyone is different, and for each difference, there is some small minded bigot to discriminate.
Hi guys!
I’m not going to put out anything here particularly constructive–I don’t want to thwart the fact that it’s my baby’s opinions you guys are curious/angry at. (For obvious reasons) I should be over at the Ask The Black Dude thread–I’ll try to be as honest (controversal?) as I can to help increase the lack of replies there. I just came on here because since Viv sent me the link, I’ve had a big, stupid grin on my face seeing how people respond to her. But that doesn’t mean I agree with everything she says…I don’t like the Wayans Bros. buffoonery–but Chris Tucker is damn funny! I’ve never dated a white woman simply because she was ‘easy’ (what good is easy if you’ll just bore me sooner or later?). But when I was younger, I had to deal with white girls exclusively simply because I grew up in a low-income, white neighbourhood. But that was then–ANY kind of woman can capture my heart, mind, body & soul…if she’s the right one. And Vivian regardless of her skin color (and her pinchable buns) did. Anyway, I’ll leave it at that and I was just wondering…anyone notice there’s no “Ask the White Woman/Man”?
P.S. The reason there’s a lot of naive people with faux concerns about race relations is because there’s a lot of "biggirl"s in this world (not “big” on being realistic, are ya? Stereotypes will always exist and it’s the way we deal with them…)
Because she started a thread purporting to give answers about black women and their perspective, not just herself, and obviously inviting questions about black women generally, not herself personally – which in fact are largely the type of questions she has received. If she was just posting as herself, and not as a black woman, representative of that class, she should have started an “Ask Vivian” thread. As she herself said, “i’m on here to answer genuine and sincere questions from people who’ve always wondered whatever about black people.” Wondered not about her, but about black people. Certainly it is reasonable then to extrapolate her opinions as revealing something about black people, since that’s what she purports to do. Before you take issue with this, note that it is something that I myself am refusing to do, since I do not believe her apparantly racist opinons are representative of all or most black people.
It is not naivete to assume that such threads are started to shed some general knowledge – not merely personal knowledge – on the group the person represents. That’s why you ask a gay guy questions about homosexuality, a Muslim guy questions about Islam, and a black guy questions about being black. To extrapolate from that the assumption that such people must speak for every single individual in the class is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous to reject them as a spokesperson for much of the class, however – that’s the whole point of such threads. I do reject VIVIAN as such a spokesperson, for reasons already given.
Blah, blah, blah. I have said nothing even addressing any of this, let alone something you could take issue with.
I did not say she was a racist; I said she sounded like one. In fact, I directly asked her if she considered herself to be racist – a question she hasn’t answered (perhaps it’s not “interesting” enough), but certainly has not denied. Frankly, I fail to see how anyone could read her posts here and maintain that she does not sound racist in at least some of her ideas – particularly in how she views white people, solely based on race.
Um, no. Racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability – including such patently ridiculous statements such as “white people smell like raw meat,” which become neither less ridiculous nor less racist when recast as “I only said that white people smell like raw meat to me.”
I asked her to clarify her viewpoint. I asked her if she thought she was racist. To the extent she has replied at all, she said “if i am a racist, fine.” Frankly, this answer unsettles me. As I have also said before, I think that if a white person came in here and said the sort of racist things VIVIAN has said – speaking only for themselves, of course, and based only upon their own experience, and if you don’t like it or you disagree just try being white for a while – they would be tarred and feathered, and IMO rightly so. To me, it highlights the belief that reverse racism is somehow okay – that you can’t be racist if you’re “the oppressor” but you can be if you’re “the oppressed.” I think that is a very dangerous and wrong-headed position.
Actually, as I clearly said in my last post, I come away with this thread thinking that VIVIAN sounds like she has some pretty racist ideas, and by association she cannot be said to give information about black people generally, because AFAIK most black people do not hold similar ignorant racist views.
Don’t get me wrong. I admire VIVIAN’s courage in not being PC and in answering honestly. That does not stop me from concluding, based upon her answers, that some of her positions are in fact racist – and very clearly so. And I do wonder, idly, if a white racist posting generalities about blacks and how they smell and how they dress and how sexually easy they are, would be met with such tolerance. Somehow I doubt it.
Ignorant generalizations based on race are definitionally racism. Racism is wrong. It doesn’t become less wrong just because it’s a black person spouting it.
Ah Mr. Tuth, you believe my concerns are “faux”? Take a look at the sites I linked and come back to me. I sure hope there are a lot of “biggirls” in the world. We could use less biogtry.
And where did I say stereotypes don’t exist? They absolutely do exist. They are dangerous and they are a lazy person’s shortcut to understanding people who look different.
And allow me to also clarify that I am not angry at VIVIAN nor do I think less of her for anything she has said – it is, after all, her honest opinion.
Whoa there Jodi. Since I was the person who brought up the question, I feel it’s my duty to defend vivian on this point. Are you saying that there are no perceptual differences between individuals whether based on race or not? You don’t believe that some individuals are more sensitive to certain flavors or odors than some other people? I accept what vivian said. That doesn’t mean that I think all black people would perceive the same smell that she does. I don’t understand how responding to a direct question honestly can be described as racist. Yes, if she just walked up to me and told me that without my asking, that would be rude. But I asked, so send your overally PC barbs my way, not hers.
Or are you calling vivian a liar? That’s pretty darn rude too.
Ahem…Biggirl.
Sure, I could go look at your links and come to a frustrated conclusion like any other human being could. Where you (and others) seem so “faux” is actually uttering out statements similar to what is “acting black/white”. I have enough common sense to know that going into a reggae jam & going to a rock bar that there are some distinct differences I’m going to be privy to (INCLUDING race). Other than that I am agreeing with you that it is still on the individual. But you’ve got to see that there are two sides to this book. That’s the reason why I say it’s the way you, I, everyone living on this planet decide to treat the stereotypes. Vivian has told me about the raw meat smelling previously and after giggling I let it go. An italian aquaintance of mine once gave me some black one-liners…I laughed & then let it go. Stereotypes don’t only affect me because I’m black–I’m also a man, a Canadian, an actor, a Quebec anglophone, Carribean-background, my skin tone is “light”, big tall dude, etc… It never stops. Really Biggirl, instead of taking offence to Vivian’s comments–start by being bewildered at some of the questions Vivian received. That alone can perpetuate some white-related sterotypes that WHITE PEOPLE are probably tired of…
I’ve read enough William Faulkner, Sherwood Anderson, and the like to know that for a very long time - white Americans believed that blacks smelled a certain way. Whether this is true or not, I won’t go there - but it’s an old belief.
Now conversely, if black Americans, Canadians, Brazilians, and Ghanaians have been told for decades that they smell a certain way - wouldn’t they begin to think the same way?
I mean if you think about it - all of the stereotypes we see about white people are just the inverse of older stereotypes about blacks. Whites have no rythym, whites have no “soul”, white men have smaller tallywhackers and so on…all are responses to the image of black people in culture.
Ok enough about odors…
In the same fashion, acting “black” and acting “white” are 2 sides of a coin. Some black children grow up thinking that the opposite of mainstream “white” behavior is what they should aspire to. I didn’t say ALL but SOME…
Likewise some white kids see these certain black kids and imitate them - because in North America from ragtime and jazz, to rock n’ roll and rap - blackness = rebellion.
And the fact that people feel the need to post “ask the black/Asian Muslim/Jewish gay/bisexual man/woman” threads indicates to me that some people think the rest of us are sort of clueless about certain segments of society.
whew