Ask the BLACK WOMAN!!!!! nothing is too ignorant......i hope.......

[Jodi]

RSA –

Whoa there Jodi. Since I was the person who brought up the question, I feel it’s my duty to defend vivian on this point.

As IMO you should. It was your stupid question (and I mean no offense to you personally, but I think the question was and is surpassingly dumb) that invited an answer that indicates racism.

Are you saying that there are no perceptual differences between individuals whether based on race or not?

Although I’m not sure what you mean by “perceptual difference,” unless you are attempting to draw some artificial line between, say, someone who is perceived to smell bad, and someone who really does smell bad.

You don’t believe that some individuals are more sensitive to certain flavors or odors than some other people?

I didn’t say that, did I?

I accept what vivian said. That doesn’t mean that I think all black people would perceive the same smell that she does.

I emphatically do not accept what she said. If her perception is that all or most white people smell like raw meat, then either all or most white people do in fact smell like raw meat, or her perception, whether genuine or not – and I have not said it is not – is tied to race and is, therefore, racist.

I don’t understand how responding to a direct question honestly can be described as racist.

Really? If a Ku Klux Klansman is asked whether he thinks blacks are mentally defective and he honestly answers “yes,” he is not being racist? Racism may be honestly come by and honestly felt; that doesn’t mean it is not still racist.

Yes, if she just walked up to me and told me that without my asking, that would be rude. But I asked, so send your overally PC barbs my way, not hers.

I frankly don’t care whether you find my position “overly PC” or not, though frankly the idea that it might be amuses me. Just ask yourself if the positions were reversed – if a white person was saying such things about black people and someone objected – whether you would then accuse the objecter of being “overly PC.” I seriously doubt it. There is nothing “overly PC” about objecting to racism and about being made uncomfortable by racist statements. To the extent that you invited the answer by asking the question, you may certainly consider my comments to be also addressed to you – though I do think it’s rather a stretch to call them “barbs.”

Or are you calling vivian a liar? That’s pretty darn rude too.

I am not calling her a liar. I am saying that she has made a racist statement. If a person told me that all black people smell like watermelon I wouldn’t call them a liar, but I would consider him or her to be a person with at least some racist opinions.

And let me remind you before you again take me to task for saying that I find some of her statements to be indicative of racism – she has not denied it.

[andygirl]

Originally posted by Biggirl *
**
I am black. Any way I act is the way a black person would act. If I wear clogs and put my finger in a leaky dyke (and I don’t mean andygirl!) this is the way a black person would act.*

:eek: Oh my. Biggirl, 1) I menstruated last week, and 2) I think you’re trying to start a trend. Expect an email from quietgirl…

My question: Have you seen Bamboozled? Any thoughts on it?

[snermy]

The “acting black”, I understand. That is, I understand there are certain sets of behaviors that go with “acting black”. Only associating with those who share those behaviors would be an effective way to exclude people who don’t have the background that goes with “acting black”.

I at least couldn’t fake it if I tried. I’m lousy with accents, and have a fairly idiosyncratic speech pattern period. (In that I speak way too fast and tend to make up entirely new words in the heat of the moment) ;). Plus I’m noticeably not black.

Isn’t this just the “people like us” syndrome? It may seem like white people are this giant homogenous mass, but just about everyone has lots of american subcultures they wouldn’t fit into. At all. There’s lots of places I would feel truly out of place in without race being an issue at all. (Unless I just went there a lot anyway. Familiarity breeds contempt, or something :))

But I have to admit, the act black/act white thing feels like a sneaky way to exclude people based on an EVEN NARROWER definition of race than we already have. In that you have to be
1)the correct race (unless you’re willing to embrace those white people who act black?)AND
2)avoid behaviors that are “white”.

Serious questions.

1)Why is it so wrong for a black person to use different sets of behaviors (“act white”)? Do blacks from foreign cultures get exemption for not acting in an “american black” fashion?

If someone black really got into buddhism, and learned to speak hindu and wore saris a lot would that be okay? Or would it still be negative since it’s “not acting black?”
2)If that’s simplistic, what would be “acting white”?

'Cause I have real trouble defining exactly what “acting white” is. Just how you speak? Or is it just generally being an uptight person? Or hanging around with/dating white people? 1 of the above? all of the above? none of the above?

Just seems limiting to exclude from your self-definition every cultural viewpoint in the world but one (and to judge from what Biggirl’s been saying, a not universally accepted def at that.)

[seawitch]

vivian, I’d also like to comment about the women who wanted to touch your hair. I have wavy red hair myself, and I’ve had people ask to touch it. Particularly in foreign countries where redheads were less common.

Did I think they were racist? No. Curious, sure. My hair was different, that’s all. I think perhaps you’re a little quick on the trigger to label people as racist. As in the Pit thread about your locker room experiences, there are reasons for people to look at you besides racism. What makes you assume that specific cause?

[Guinastasia]

I’d also like to point out that those who do not understand why some of us are miffed might want to check out Jonathan Chance’s thread on Jewish stereotypes in the Pit.

[amarinth]

There is also the problem that these stereotypes equate the phrases “Most people who do X, Y, or Z are members of this minority group” and “Most members of this minority group do X, Y, and Z.” It’s a logical error that has been made many times in this thread. Whether or not none, one, or both of the statements are true - they aren’t equivalent statements.

[TeaElle]

*Originally posted by Jodi *
**CELESTINA –

But why should you think that Vivian represents all black folks or even one particular class of black people? I’m confused.

Because she started a thread purporting to give answers about black women and their perspective, not just herself, and obviously inviting questions about black women generally, not herself personally – which in fact are largely the type of questions she has received. If she was just posting as herself, and not as a black woman, representative of that class, she should have started an “Ask Vivian” thread. As she herself said, “i’m on here to answer genuine and sincere questions from people who’ve always wondered whatever about black people.” Wondered not about her, but about black people. Certainly it is reasonable then to extrapolate her opinions as revealing something about black people, since that’s what she purports to do. Before you take issue with this, note that it is something that I myself am refusing to do, since I do not believe her apparantly racist opinons are representative of all or most black people. **

I am likewise refusing to accept Vivian’s answers as anything but her own opinions and experiences because I, as a black woman, cannot agree with more than one or two of the things that she’s said throughout this entire thread. She does not speak to me, my experience or my knowledge, nor that of any black people that I know.

Moreover, her generalities are driving me mad. We get hair extensions so that we can fling our hair like white people? Leave it to white people to stick it to OJ financially? We come from a warm climate so we don’t like the cold. (Hmm, I was born in Duluth.) We don’t eat rare meat, we all have troubles finding a hairstylist, so on and so on.

Methinks Vivian doesn’t know many people.

These answers aren’t about black people, they’re about Vivian. I don’t think that it can be stated strongly or often enough that this thread is strictly her perspective.

[Biggirl]

*Originally posted by §weeTüth *
**Ahem…Biggirl.
Sure, I could go look at your links and come to a frustrated conclusion like any other human being could. Where you (and others) seem so “faux” is actually uttering out statements similar to what is “acting black/white”. I have enough common sense to know that going into a reggae jam & going to a rock bar that there are some distinct differences I’m going to be privy to (INCLUDING race).

**

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. The reggae clubs you frequent are predominatly black. The people there act a certain way, so therefore this is the way black people act. The same with the rock club only reverse the colors.

I’ve got news for you. People in clubs act like people in clubs. Please explain to me the black way and the white way.

*Originally posted by §weeTüth *
**
Other than that I am agreeing with you that it is still on the individual. But you’ve got to see that there are two sides to this book. That’s the reason why I say it’s the way you, I, everyone living on this planet decide to treat the stereotypes.

**

I say treat them like the worthless things they are. You can treat them as you wish.

*Originally posted by §weeTüth *
**
Vivian has told me about the raw meat smelling previously and after giggling I let it go. An italian aquaintance of mine once gave me some black one-liners…I laughed & then let it go. Stereotypes don’t only affect me because I’m black–I’m also a man, a Canadian, an actor, a Quebec anglophone, Carribean-background, my skin tone is “light”, big tall dude, etc… It never stops.

**
Stereotypes do affect you, even when you don’t want them to. Read the links.

*Originally posted by §weeTüth *
**
Really Biggirl, instead of taking offence to Vivian’s comments–start by being bewildered at some of the questions Vivian received. That alone can perpetuate some white-related sterotypes that WHITE PEOPLE are probably tired of… **

Why would I be bewildered by the questions she received. You most likely don’t know this but I was an ask the black person person, as was celestina. There aren’t many of us black people here. You and vivian should stick around. You learn very quickly not to be bewildered by anything anyone would ask.

[theendisnear]

*Originally posted by Jodi *

**I emphatically do not accept what she said. If her perception is that all or most white people smell like raw meat, then either all or most white people do in fact smell like raw meat, or her perception, whether genuine or not – and I have not said it is not – is tied to race and is, therefore, racist.

**

So anything that is tied to race is racism? I’m sorry but thats bs. There is such a thing as acting black/white because they are two completely different cultures, there is NOTHING wrong with this. That doesn’t mean that every single white/black person acts a certain way or that it is in any way wrong for one to act like the other.

[mangeorge]

Biggirl said;

There aren’t many of us black people here.

How do you know that, Biggirl?
Peace,
mangeorge

[Biggirl]

Hey, mangeorge I guess your right. I don’t really know who is black or not. For all I know vivian and §weeTüth could be white as the driven snow.
I remember one or two threads about the lack of black people here. FWIW, all of the Dopers I ever met IRL were white.

[Sophie]

vivian, you are going to have to get over the hair-touching thing. It happens to me all of the time, too, and by all different kinds of people. Take it as a freaking compliment. Look at it like this: they could be stomping on your feet and poking you in the eye with a sharp stick. Instead, they want to touch your hair. They want to appreciate something that is strange and probably beautiful to them.

When my very white sister got hair braids down to her waist, she was approached in the same manner and she loved the attention. I wish you knew how many white people told her that they had always wanted to have it done themselves…

basically, we want to fling our hair like white people. **

Hmmm. Is it just the texture, or is it the raw meat smell in particular that first attracted you to white hair?

[rsa]

Jodi
I’m too tired to respond to all of your points and I don’t agree with everything vivian has said, but I respect her opinions. I’m sorry for snipping some of your comments.

*Originally posted by Jodi *
I emphatically do not accept what she said. If her perception is that all or most white people smell like raw meat, then either all or most white people do in fact smell like raw meat, or her perception, whether genuine or not – and I have not said it is not – is tied to race and is, therefore, racist.

I guess I’m a racist. I would say that most African-Americans are generally darker than Anglo-Saxons. That’s an observation tied to race, so based on your criteria I’m a racist pig.

I don’t understand how responding to a direct question honestly can be described as racist.

Really? If a Ku Klux Klansman is asked whether he thinks blacks are mentally defective and he honestly answers “yes,” he is not being racist? Racism may be honestly come by and honestly felt; that doesn’t mean it is not still racist.

Please, how is an opinion about “mental defectiveness” equivalent to what someone objectively smells?

There is nothing “overly PC” about objecting to racism and about being made uncomfortable by racist statements

I totally agree. I just disagree that someone telling me I smell one way or another is racist. If vivian had said white people smelled like roses, would that be racist?

Or are you calling vivian a liar? That’s pretty darn rude too.

I am not calling her a liar. I am saying that she has made a racist statement. If a person told me that all black people smell like watermelon I wouldn’t call them a liar, but I would consider him or her to be a person with at least some racist opinions.

Well, if I thought all black people smelled like watermelons I would probably assume that I had a problem with my sense of smell. If I didn’t really smell that and just said that then I would be a racist.

[celestina]

Welcome to the boards, Sweetuth and tlw. tlw, thank you for echoing my concern that vivian be seen as only speaking for herself and no one else.

---

Jodi said:
"Um, no. Racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability – including such patently ridiculous statements such as “white people smell like raw meat,” which become neither less ridiculous nor less racist when recast as “I only said that white people smell like raw meat to me.”

---

Well, I define a belief in X thing as PREJUDICE. Taking the step of acting on said belief to hold someone else back socially, politically, or economically is RACISM. But you may define racism however you want to. In this thread, I find vivian’s statements to be ignorant and, as has been demonstrated by the responses of folks in this thread, offensive. While I am offended by vivian’s ignorance, I hesitate to call her a racist because she hasn’t acted on these beliefs. She didn’t of her own volition go up to a Doper and offend them, she’s responding to questions–some of which are arguably designed to elicit controversial responses–that Dopers have asked her. If she wants to call herself a racist, fine. I won’t argue with her assessment, but from where I’m sitting, racism is a little more complex. YMMV

---

Jodi said:
"And I do wonder, idly, if a white racist posting generalities about blacks and how they smell and how they dress and how sexually easy they are, would be met with such tolerance. Somehow I doubt it.

Ignorant generalizations based on race are definitionally racism. Racism is wrong. It doesn’t become less wrong just because it’s a black person spouting it."

---

No, neither a racist nor an ignorant person, white or otherwise, would be met with tolerance if they posted offensive generalizations about any cultural group on this board. vivian is posting some ignorant generalizations, and folks are questioning her about them.

IMHO “ignorant generalizations based on race” are PREJUDICE. ACTING on those “ignorant generalizations” to hinder someone from getting a job, voting, or mixing socially with other groups is RACISM.

---

Jodi said:
"It is not naivete to assume that such threads are started to shed some general knowledge – not merely personal knowledge. . . It is not ridiculous to reject them as a spokesperson for much of the class, however – that’s the whole point of such threads. I do reject VIVIAN as such a spokesperson, for reasons already given. "

---

I’m glad you don’t see vivian as a “spokesperson” for black people. What I take issue with in this thread and others like it is the fact that anyone would see ONE individual as “a spokesperson for much of the class.” The only thing folks should take away from these “Ask the ____” threads is that they have talked with and learned of one person’s perspective on the topic of X. That is unless the person provides some cites to other texts or provides some reference to a historical event/person you can research. vivian represents herself, and that is it.

---

quote:

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Blackness is not monolithic; it is as rich and varied in nuances of experience as there are people who call themselves black. . . .

Blah, blah, blah. I have said nothing even addressing any of this, let alone something you could take issue with.

---

Well, wait a minute now. You just said that you look at the people who start these “Ask the ____” threads as “a spokesperson for much of the class.” I’m starting to get confused, but okay. Whatever. Whether or not you addressed my concerns about folks seeing vivian as the “spokesperson” for any class of black people, the fact remains that folks are posting questions to vivian in the hopes that she can provide insight into black culture. That indicates that they probably do not know many black folks IRL and/or are ignorant of black culture and history. What I take issue with–and I think rightly so–is folks tendency to take as a given the word of ONE black person as the “spokesperson” for the majority if not all of the group. It has been MY experience as a black person to see this phenomena occur again and again. I see it in folks asking questions about who is the best black leader? Who speaks for black people? What I take issue with is the fact that non-black folks think that black folks CAN’T SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES AS INDIVIDUALS. No one speaks for ME, but ME. Does that make sense to you? Do you see why I’ve raised the concerns that I have in this thread?

Look, Jodi, I’m not looking to attack you. I too can respect the fact that vivian is making an effort to communicate with non-black folks, and even though I don’t agree with a lot of what she’s saying, I will defend her right to voice her opinion, but I’m going to voice my opinion too. You can believe what you want to. You can define racism however you want to, just as I will define racism and prejudice as I see fit, but don’t you dare dismiss some very real concerns that I’ve raised in this thread about the dynamics of who is speaking for whom because even if you’ve come to the conclusion that vivian is not a “spokesperson” for black folks or black culture, I can well imagine there are plenty of folks who’ve posted or not posted to this thread who may be tempted to see her otherwise.

[DarrenS]

vivian - thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions. Fighting ignorance is what this board is all about.

Regarding “African” blacks vs “American” blacks: one of my friends is from Camaroon (sp) - he once made the comment that “American blacks are lazy.” He seems to have no respect for American blacks at all. I also remember at school that the “West Indian” blacks used to mock the “African” blacks mercilessly.

My question is, is it true that there is a lot of animosity between African blacks and American blacks? I’ve heard from a couple of friends that there is more “tension” between those groups than there is between black and white (kinda subjective and hard to quantify, I realize).

[Eternal]

Semantics, semantics, and stubbornness. You can’t say even say the word “race” without getting pounced on by some people.

I’m going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and say they most share a somewhat uniform idea of what they’re talking about but haven’t been able to phrase it as they understand it.

As for who the racists are here, I’ll leave that to the Porjombellis, God of the Underdwellings. No mortal is ever going to sort it our because of the constraints of language, so I suggest you all stop trying.

Or develop telepathy. That would be cool.

[irishgirl]

ok doki.

my mother’s family is white zimbabwean (my grandmother and great grandparents were born there)of german, irish, portuguese, jewish and ??? origin.

and i don’t look white. basically i could be anything else BUT white. but there you go.genetics are funny like that.

and here’s the problem.

my grandmother is racist, but in the sort of way you would be if you were born in zambia in 1916. kind of colonial patronisation.

my mother is not racist. we have black, chinese, asian, indian, etc etc friends.
i am not racist. ditto.

however…
i have never been comfortable talking to the malawian and botswanan students in my class at college (in dublin, ireland) as i think that THEY would perceive my family as colonial bastards. which is irrational, i know.

anything i can do to get around this?

side note
best lovers i have had were blond, blue-eyed irishfella
and a native american/mexican guy from san jose.
which screws up the statistics.

[coffeecat]

[sub]Quick, Crackergirl! I’ll stun them with my wet-dog smell, while you run in and steal all their men.[/sub]

How prevalent do you think is black racism against white people? This question is more for Biggirl than Vivian; sorry Viv, but I don’t think you and I even agree on what racism is.

[pennylane]

I can understand the objection to using terms such as “acting black” or “acting white”. I think it’s pretty mean when black people are ostracised for “acting white” or white people are mocked for “acting black”, when they are just acting as themselves. But evidently many people who read this thread understood what vivian meant by those terms, so anyone who pretended that they didn’t is being a bit idealistic.

In my travels around the world, I’ve found most stereotypes to be somewhat true. None of them are true of everyone, and some of them are true of no-one. Most have some basis in history, geographic location, religion or cultural practice. In my opinion, learning about other cultures involves a kind of stereotyping. For example, before living in America, I had heard that Americans were very P.C. None of my American friends are P.C. at all. But in general that information helped me avoid getting branded as a racist for the kind of joking comment that would be commonplace where I come from.

I live for the day when stereotypes will have no meaning, and I think that day will come. But there are many people who do not think for themselves, or are afraid to act differently from the people around them, and these are the people who conform to the stereotypes. As things like travel and interracial marriage become more common, I am confident that stereotypes will eventually disappear.

In the meantime, I’m happy to read about a black girl’s opinion, based on her knowledge of herself and her friends/acquaintances, on how black people feel about certain things. For instance, it had never occurred to me before that people with very curly hair can’t “fling” their hair like that irritating Lucy Liu. And as for the wet-dog smell, it is a common belief that people of different races smell different. It doesn’t seem like an unreasonable belief to me.

[vivian]

maaaaan…i’ve just about given up. really people. this all started with a rant about people staring at me while i was naked. why i decided to complain about it, because it seemed to me that the very same people did not stop all they were doing to look at the other females in the change room. i did not bring this up to yell about them being racist. i had just come to the conclusion that, as far as i can tell, i happen to be the only black female at the gym, and maybe these women have literallynever seen a black woman naked before. then someone suggested i start a ‘Ask the____’ thread. i was game. i know in MY 24 yrs of experience, white people generally have questions about black people. as you know, this is a place where people state their opinions on whatever questions asked. like i said before, it’s called ‘Ask the black woman’. i said i would try my best to answer genuine questions. i’m NOT here to talk for ALL black people just as one jew/fatguy/drug addict/muslim cannot speak for all of the groups they happen to be a part of.
i am only human. thank you to all the people who asked questions without attacking me and defended me when under attack. not that i’m afraid of people doing so, i just wish people would realize that i do not intend to be a spokesperson for a whole race of people. what i had intended to do what was respond to any curiosities one may have had in regards to black people.
people need to stop being soooo pc and live in whatever reality we live in now. i am as real as one can get, so if i offend you or irk you ar whatever…GET OVER IT. i never once said white people were stupid, uncivilized, unhuman etc, but i have been told that about my people. when you have the chance to grow up as i and many black people have, then please feel free to confront me on my views as many have. who am i to question a rape victim if i have never been raped? who am i to question a victim of war about the atrocities (sp?) they’ve been through when i’ve never been through war myself? i can only ask questions and listen to their answers. if they choose to say that rape is great and that war is the best thing since sliced bread, i can only beleive it’s becuase of THEIR experience.

so with that said, jodiyes, i am admittedly biased. but the difference is i do not actively act out these feelings. one would be stupid to do so in 2001. if i am a racist in stating that some white people smelled like roses at the peak of their bloom, i should hope that you would be offended by that as well.

if anyone still wants to ask me questions, go ahead. i am still willing to answer as Vivian, the Black woman…if you don’t mind…