i’ve heard the same thing. you know it seems to me that it’s human nature to find something about basically ‘your own’ that you do not like. i believe that the reason that some Africans feel that black americans are lazy is because, in Africa, when you’re poor, you’re poor. there’s no government to help you out when you’re down on your luck as is the case in North America. In Africa, you either have to work hard to get what you have or suffer. This is not to say that American blacks do not have the same work ethics as Africans etc, but in Africa, more than likely as far as **i know **in MY country (Ghana/Togo) there aren’t any food stamps or welfare cheques. Yes there are Agencies there to do whatever it is they set out to do whether it be to spread Christianity by building wells or what have you.
I guess because of this, the West Indians may see us as primitive or lacking whatever they perceive themeslves to have.
Growing up i had to deal with many stereotypes. Being black and African is a pretty interesting experience. Teachers asking me if i had ever used a toilet before…if i had ever found maggots in my hair because of all the flies that were always on my face…all kinds of shit.
as for animosity…it’s probably because the tensions felt with white people is almost second nature.
I think that a lot of people understood what Vivian meant, and it’s not that we didn’t get her generalizations, we disapprove of them, because they are based on highly constrained, highly inappropriate and wildly inaccurate stereotypes.
Moreover, having someone pandering to those stereotypes while purporting to be representative of an entire group of people – my people – is, to me at least, wildly offensive.
We know what Vivian meant by “acting” black/white, just like we knew what the poster was getting at when he talked about “acting black” to him meant smoking blunts and drinking 40s. It’s all a load of hooey.
But in this case, the stereotypes are not somewhat true. They are only marginally true, marginally enough to make them meaningless. They are caricature stereotypes. All of the behaviors which are “stereotypically” black or “stereotypically” white only apply to a distinct, minority subset of either group, and to suggest that there is enough cohesion to those stereotypes within either race is self-serving (and self-revealing) ignorance at best, racist baiting at worst.
That there are people who act in what is considered “stereotypical” fashion is not the issue – the issue is the people who continue to volley those stereotypes around as representative of the whole. How people act is their business and is irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is how people choose to characterize an entire group of people based upon their knowledge of a very small segment of that group.
I could say that women who work in English hotels tend to be chatty brunettes, because that’s all I’ve seen when I’ve visited England. Perhaps chatty brunettes are drawn to hotel work in the UK. Perhaps working in a hotel causes one to become gregarious and chatty. Perhaps they’re all brunette because it’s coincidentally the predominant hair color in the areas that I’ve visited, or because the hotel chains encourage brown hair as a uniformity thing.
But I would be wrong, because I don’t have nearly enough information upon which to base that conclusion. I have stereotyped English desk clerks based upon my narrow knowledge. I could go around describing English hotel workers with my stereotype, and some people would visit London this fall and find a hotel full of chatty brunette desk clerks and they’d buy into my stereotype, and promote it. And so on and so on, and the stereotype would be built and the quiet redheaded desk clerks and the sarcastic blonde desk clerks would be left on the sidelines saying “Well, I know that there are some chatty brunettes, but what about me?”
That’s where the stereotype falls down, and that’s why the stereotyping needs to be called as false when it is so clearly based on limited and anecdotal knowledge, or generalities so vague or broad as to be meaningless.
There are roughtly 35 million black people in the U.S. alone. Tell me what pattern of behaviour is common enough amongst all of us to qualify an imitation thereof as “acting black?” There are about 168 million white people in the U.S. What is it that they all do that can be pointed to as “acting white?”
If those questions cannot be answered without relying upon massive generalizations which cannot be supported by any data of any kind, then those stereotypes should not be considered acceptable social discourse. They are hurtful, ignorant, maligning and unnecessary.
Now, if you wanted to qualify that, as “acting like you’re from the ghetto” (smoking blunts, drinking 40s) or “acting like a racist redneck” (driving a pickup with a gun rack, confederate flag bumper stickers, chewing tobacco and talking about your hatred for n*ggers) then maybe the concepts would be more accurate.
Until then, the stereotypes do nothing but a disservice to those who are trying desperately to foster real understanding of people of different races, to help bridge the gaps between us.
**
As I’ve stated repeatedly, I do not understand what is meant by “acting black” and “acting white”. The responses I’ve gotten so far include: Like the black people on T.V., like the different way blacks and whites act in clubs, baggie clothes and backwards baseball caps.
As one poster pointed out, just because the majority of gangsta rappers are black it does not follow that the majority of blacks are gangsta rappers. If you are into the gangsta culture you will then “act” like a gangsta. This has nothing to do with color.
Let me repeat: If a white person wants to act like a gangsta rapper he is not acting like a black person. He is acting like a gansta rapper.
I’ve got to get back to work.
Biggirl said in five sentences what I required five paragraphs to say. Ooph.
Thanks.
there are some things that just cannot be explained in a posts.But for example, yesterday at the gym, i was wearing a bandana that was white. i was standing there with my personal trainer who was also wearing a bandana. one of the employees says to me ‘hey, no gang colours allowed’. i said ‘who are you talking to?’ he said ‘you’ and throws up a ‘gang side’. i said to my personal trainer ‘has he ever said that to you?’ he looks at me apologetically and says ‘no. sorry about that’.
i realize it has really nothing to do with ‘acting blac/white’, but there is unfortunately such as thing. believe it or not.
Apart from this, tlw, I understand your point, and I agree that the stereotype is not very accurate. There are enough “black-acting” white people and “white-acting” black people in America to make the phrases a bit redundant. I still feel that the remark was innocently made and that one should not characterise all stereotypes as mere figments of the imagination.
I would venture to guess:
Speaking Ebonics, for the most part. And dressing like Rappers. That’s pretty much what I think people mean when they say “acting black.”
And I think it’s crap. I mean, I’d say about half of the students I know on campus are black-most of them are exchange students from Africa. Most are extremely nice, polite, friendly. The ONLY thing I noticed is that a few students from the mid east and Africa tend to smell like curry sometimes, and that’s just diet-and I HATE even mentioning it.
I also get the feeling that sometimes when people say, “They act white”, I hear it a lot of times in context with students of color who study, get good grades, etc etc. And THAT, my friends, pisses me off to no end-as if only “white” people get good grades.
:rolleyes:
The whole black/white acting thing is a reference to black American culture, though. Current dispute aside, “acting black” (at least in America) usually means “acting African-American”. I’m sure there are other stereotypes regarding Africans, although I don’t know what they are.
You quoted me and addressed tlw. You say the stereotype is not accurate but believe they are not figments of the imagination. Stereotypes are not figments of anyone’s imagination. Stereotypes are very real. People believe them with a steadfastness that is dismaying and downright scary. No one can even describe what they are, the just know what they are.
Vivian is accused of wearing gang colors at her gym. Because everyone knows what a bandana on a black person means. Well, goddamnit, everybody doesn’t know. A whole lot of people assume and a whole lot of people are convinced that these assumptions are correct.
Do I seem to be getting a little angry here? It may be me beating my head against this brick wall. Tell me exactly what stereotypes of black people and white people should we believe? Tell me what in the hell acting white is. Tell me what behaviors that I exhibit that will cause me to give in my membership to the blackness club.
For the last time ***WHAT IN FUCK’S SAKE IS ACTING IN COLOR?
We are just going in circles now. As I stated above, I don’t believe nor imply that every black person’s behaviors can be summed up into a phrase like “acing black”. And when I use the phrase “acting black”, that’s not my intent.
But when I see white boys ripping off a style or mannerisms that were made popular by blacks (ebonics, or gangsta style, whatever) I will think they are wishing they were black, or “acting black”. YMMV, as may your usage or non-usage of the phrase.
To put it another way, pretend I have a cat who for whatever reason likes to chase cars. Am I way off the mark to say “He’s acting like a dog?” Most dogs don’t chase cars…
I just think Americans (North America) in general make too much of a big deal out of everyting concerning color issues, racism… etc. and that is a big part of the problem.
This entire 3 pages threat is the proof of it!
vivian, dear, you can’t have it both ways.
Either:
Or:
But not both. You either intended to speak only for yourself or you intended to speak for (all or most) black people.
Uhm, no. If you offend or irk around these here parts, you get called on it. And rightfully so. We don’t abide jerks here, and while you may not have crossed the line completely towards being a jerk up to now, you’re on a slippery slope towards it if you continue spouting ridiculous stereotypes and, in some cases, downright insulting garbage (the whites/OJ comment, for example). If you aren’t sure how someone who’s simply stating their own opinion can be considered a jerk for doing so even though they’re just “being honest” about their feelings, I invite you to search for any of Wildest Bill’s posts.
You don’t have to state it outright for that inference to be drawn by the words you have posted here. Again, I invite you to come take a peek at how Wildest Bill insists he’s complimenting Jews by saying we’re superior business people, and refuses to accept it when people tell him that is not only not complimentary, it’s a frightening stereotype that has led to great harm in our community. Here’s the link. My point is, insults can be veiled in all sorts of flowery words. That doesn’t make them any less insulting to those of us on the receiving end of them. If people here have told you (and they have) that they found your comments to be insulting, instead of getting all defensive, perhaps it would do your spirit well to stop for a moment, consider why it’s so offensive and actually learn something about us non-blacks.
Not here you haven’t. Nor should you be. And if you ever are, I would encourage you to call them on it and point it out to a moderator or administrator and let nature take its course.
Please do not try to tell me that I cannot challenge your views - or even so much as discuss your views - unless or until I’ve walked a mile in your shoes. No, I can never fully understand your experiences in life. I will never know what it’s like to be black and face the challenges you do. Nor will you ever know what it’s like to be a Jew and face the prejudices I face. But that doesn’t disqualify either of us from chiming in where we see ignorance being perpetrated. Just because we haven’t lived it, doesn’t mean we can’t recognize it for exactly what it is.
Shalom,
Shayna
I really appreciate your consideration in avoiding stepping on my penis - Spiny Norman
Jeg elsker dig, Thomas
Well, I’m about ready to give up here. What I find disturbing about this is that in reading what vivian has to say, I get the distinct impression that she assumes that all white people are racist, and that very few of us have seen black people before.
Hmph. I have friends of all shades, heritages, and religions. One of my friends is black; she and I have been close friends since before vivian was born. I’ve dated men with various ethnicities. My husband is Mexican-American. My uncle is a tribal magistrate for a group of Native American reservations in the southwest. Some of the people I’ve mentioned above were assholes, some are wonderful. I’ve never seen any correlation between skin color and assholish tendancies.
And yet… if I show undue interest, it will be assumed I am racist. Even better, that I am an ignorant racist who has never seen any skin except my own. Guilty until proven innocent. That sucks.
Those kind of assumptions do not promote understanding and tolerance. They undermine it. For a lasting solution, everyone has to work together. And that means not making assumptions about any person based upon color, race, or religion.
I give up now. If you don’t already know all this, you won’t even hear what I’m saying.
sheeesh…i’m a hypocrite, i’m a racist, i’m thisclose to being a jerk. and thisprettydamnclose to being compared to wildestbill.
so…
PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING SAID BY ME.
all i want to do is answer questions. nothing is too ignorant. no questions are stupid. but if i can’t find a cite to prove my response, your outta luck.
if there are none, i will just quietly exsist over here in the corner of the world where everything is hunky-dory. where there is no such thing as ‘my experience’ or even entitled to my opinion based on ’ my personal experience’.
thank you and have a good day…
RSA –
By this I assume that you see no difference between a characteristic that is objectively provable and value-neutral (black people are generally darker than white people) and one that is totally subjective, probably objectively disprovable, and reflects that color alone accounts for differences between people – ie, white people smell like raw meat but black people do not. I can’t imagine why you would not appreciate the difference between these two, though it appears you do not. You, of course, would know better than I if you are a racist pig.
“Objectively smells”? There is no “objectively smells” here, unless you wish to argue that white people do, in fact and by objective standards, smell like raw meat. As for the other – the subjective perception that black people are mentally defective obviously directly parallels the subjective perception that white people smell like raw meat. Both are indefensible and insulting generalizations based on race alone.
Under any reasonable definition of racism, yes. It would be. Obviously.
Wow, you’ll really bend over backwards to defend what is really an indefensible statement, won’t you? There is obviously no real “problem with your sense of smell” that would cause you to think that all people of a particular racial group – regardless of societal background – smell a particular way. That is because your nose is apparently smarter than you, and does not “smell” non-existent differences based on race. So if you were, in fact, to detect race-based differences in smell, as VIVIAN apparently does, I would suggest that your first suspicion should be that something is wrong with your ideas, not with your nose.
CELESTINA, I will not quibble with you over what constitutes “racism” versus what constitutes “prejudice.” I would merely point out, however, that none of the three dictionaries I have at hand reflect your position that racism must always include overt action. In any event, if you wish to go back and replace the word “prejudiced” for the word “racist” in my posts, feel free to do so – it does not change my position in the least. I am equally as down on unthinking racial prejudice as I am on racism. You have said that you find some of VIVIAN’s statements both ignorant and offensive, so I really don’t think we are disagreeing with each other. You just don’t like my terminology, in which case, feel free to substitute terms you find preferable.
This seems to me to be self-evidently wrong. Such threads are started to provide some wider perspective on the group the OP’er belongs to – gays, muslims, fat people, whatever. They are very obviously not intended to provide only one person’s “perspective,” of no use in regarding the rest of the group. This is most evident by the tone of the questions that such threads garner, which include “Do black girls find it hard to find a good hairstylist?” “Do fat people have trouble having sex?” “Do Mulims embrace violence?” They are more than one person’s persective; if they were not, they wouldn’t be “ask the member of this class,” they would be “ask the individual.”
I trust you see that these two statements are, to some extent, contradictory. On the one hand, you “take issue” with people perceiving VIVIAN to be a “spokesperson” for the majority of her group – something that, again, I do not do – but on the other hand you admit that people ask her questions “in the hopes that she can provide insight into black culture” – i.e., tell them things about the larger black culture, not just herself as an individual.
Look, I have never said, and do not believe, that any of these “Ask The Group Representative” threads means that the person hosting the thread speaks for every single person in that group. But it is clear they are intended to shed some light on the thoughts and feelings of a lot of that group – as you yourself admit by noting that poeple are seeking insight not into one individual’s beliefs, but rather into black culture. There is a lot of room between “I only speak for myself alone” and “I am the Last Word on what is believed by every single person in my group.” These “Ask The Group Representative” threads are obviously in that middle ground – they say, in effect, “I am a member of this group and so I know how a lot of us think/feel, and so I will tell you that.” I am refusing to grant VIVIVAN status as a person who can reasonably tell me what a lot of her group (think/feel) regarding white people, because I think she is racist (prejudiced) and I devoutly hope that most black people are not. If I am deluded in this hope, I choose to remain deluded.
I don’t believe I’ve “dismissed” a single concern of yours. I simply disagree with you. If you find that disagreement “dismissive” – well, I fail to see what I can do about that. Certainly I can’t change my mind over it. As for the fact that some people might consider her to be a “spokesperson” for black culture – you’re right. They might. I think that’s the risk that is always run in these “I speak for a class” type of threads.
VIVIAN –
I hope you can see that this remains to a certain extent contradictory, for the same reasons as CELESTINA’s statement was. You are not the spokesperson for a whole race, but you are willing to generalize about the entire race (answer “curiosities one may have in regards to black people”). I fail to see how you and CELESTINA and others can in one breath argue that your opinions should be considered only your own, and not reflect on black people in general, but in the next breath argue that you should be allowed to generalize about what black people think and feel. Either you speak for only yourself, or you don’t. I wish you’d make up your mind.
Ah. I see. Well, the next time you are subjected to real prejudice as opposed to perceived prejudice – meaning, “we won’t hire you, VIV, because we don’t hire black people,” as opposed to “that person wants to touch my hair; must be because I’m black” – that some good-hearted soul stops by to tell you that racism is the reality we live it, and if it irks you or offends you or whatever – GET OVER IT.
No, you just said we’re easy, we like to stick it to the black man, and we smell like raw meat. And racism directed at you about “your people” does not excuse racism practiced by you about another “people,” as surely you must realize.
Yeah, well, when you’ve grown up a white boy in rural Texas please feel free to confront those who dragged a black man to death behind a truck. Since you haven’t, you obviously can’t confront them on their views, so you’d better sit back down.
I’m try to make this as clear as possible: If a person comes here and starts an “Ask The Rape Victim” thread and says “Being raped is great! Rape victims love forcible sex!” then I will say “No. You do not speak for the class you purport to represent. This is not a perspective that is indicative of the views of this class of people.” I do not have to have been raped myself to draw that conclusion.
Well, I half-heartedly give you credit for being honest. But as I have said, I find your views both depressing and unsettling. Maybe the fact that you have black friends but the whites you know are only “acquaintences” is attributable to the fact that white people know you are racist or prejudiced or biased or whatever you want to call your views. Because as a white girl, I can guarantee we would never be friends – I don’t need friends who judge me based on the color of my skin
Yes, you are, and yes, I would be.
It has been MY experience as a black person to see this phenomena occur again and again. I see it in folks asking questions about who is the best black leader? Who speaks for black people? What I take issue with is the fact that non-black folks think that black folks CAN’T SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES AS INDIVIDUALS. No one speaks for ME, but ME. Does that make sense to you? Do you see why I’ve raised the concerns that I have in this thread?
From Dictionary.com:
RACISM: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
PREJUDICE: The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. An irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
BIAS: A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.
I have just one thing to say:
Get off your cross. Somebody needs the wood.
:rolleyes:
Whoops! Forgot to edit that last part. Ignore it.
VIVIAN, I for one truly hope you don’t leave. You seem like a nice, intelligent person. But it is only fair that you realize that if you post things around here that are percieved to be racist (prejudiced, biased, insert word of choice here) you will be called on it.
I hope you can appreciate that this is a good thing and not a bad thing, if you think about the welcome people would receive (and have received in the past) for posting racist stuff about black people. Because that welcome has been anything but warm, believe me.
No one is attacking you personally. But we have every right to question your opinions and positions if we find them offensive or unsettling – just as you have the right to question ours.
hey, how about you get of my ass? if you’ve got more insults for me, why not start a thread in the Pit. knock yourself out.
Jody
i do not intend on leaving. i’m just tired of being attacked because of the way i answered a few questions. i’m not even sure why my name and wildestbills’ are in the same sentence…this is something that can obviously cannot be resolved otherwise there would be no such thing as racism, prejudice or discrimination. AGAIN, i am here to answer general questions people can’t find the answer to. if i wanted to know how to comb my hair (if i was white) while it was wet or how to use a self-tanner, i could go to ivillage.com. why? because mostly, it’s common knowledge. it seems to me, that alot of the questions that have been asked are not common knowledge. hate to tell you this…it doesn’t end here. the only way to resolve this is if we, as the human race, were to start over again.
VIVIAN –
Well, if you answer “a few questions” in an offensive or prejudiced way, you open yourself up to attack. That’s just the way it is around here, and I think it’s a good thing, though I know from person experience it isn’t comfortable to be the recipient of a pile-on of criticism.
I’m not sure it can’t be resolved. I firmly believe we need to try to resolve it, regardless of whether we are ever entirely successful or not. You’re the one in the group with the short end of the stick here – it’s you’re people who have historically been oppressed and short-changed because of color, not whiteys like me. Are you sure you want to just decide prejudice is okay because it “obviously can’t be resolved”? Because that almost certainly will not result in any good for you.
You only get into trouble when you stop furnishing information and start posting indefensible, like we smell like meat, or stupid observations, like how shocked shocked! you were to find that white women have veins in their butts. Both are offensive, and frankly you strike me as plenty intelligent enough to see why.
I think this is bullshit. The way to resolve racism is to judge people based on their character, not the color of their skin (to quote a wise and revered man). I’m amazed you don’t see the danger of a black girl telling a bunch of white people to in effect just get used to racism. Who do you think is going to get knocked on her ass if we all take that advice? You? Or me?
Vivan
Probably the best thing that you can do right now is continue answering questions and providing insight into the way a 24 year old black Canadian woman thinks. This is all good. The only bad was where a few leading questions lowered the tone of the whole thread. Any answer that requires you to suggest something about white people is best avoided - so the OJ question could have had the same answer, minus offensiveness, if you’d said “I can’t believe he got away with killing two people, but the victim’s families sure stuck it to him financially”.
What I’d like to know is - have you travelled to many foreign countries? You’ve mentioned that you find the US to treat black people in a more cautious manner than Canada - have you been to other countries, and if so, did you find you were treated differently there?