Ask the comic guy..

I can see someone’s not read the “Origin” mini-series, which in addition to showing Logan able to use his bone claws long before the Weapon-X project got a hold of him, also explained why he has such a thing for redheads.

Even if you totally ignore the “Origin” story-arc, let me run this by you: Wolverine was able to use his bone claws after Magneto ripped out his adamantium, so they obviously could punch through his skin at that point. With his healing factor, the wounds from the claws punching through his skin should heal back perfectly, right? Logan doesn’t get scar tissue, he gets entirely new flesh, just as good as the old flesh.

So if his bone claws can punch through “healed to the point of being like new” skin, wouldn’t they also have been able to punch through the skin the first time?
:slight_smile:

I was thinking the adamantium ones were sharp enough to punch through accidentally and that was how he discovered he had them and that the bone ones were only sharp enough to punch through if he made a deliberate effort.

I may be wrong on this, but during his time in the Weapon X project, didn’t Wolverine “discover” his claws because he extended them reflexively in response to the pain of the adamantium lacing process?

Well, actually, it’s because he didn’t have claws until the Weapon-X folks created and implanted them, complete with bionic housings, in his forearms. Anything written on the subject that contradicts this will force me to stick my fingers in my ears and chant, “La la la la I can’t hear you la la la la…” for about an hour. :smiley:

[sub]Really, was the original origin story so boring that it needed this much alteration over the years? Logan was a lot more fun when no one knew for sure just what happened to him, or who he was before “the gummint” got ahold of him.[/sub]

I seem to recall reading something like this… well, similar, anyway. When (in a flashback sequence) Guardian and his wife (whose names both completely escape me now) found Logan wandering in the wilderness, he was mostly feral and out of his skull. They cornered him, trying to get him into their cabin, out of the elements. When cornered, he popped his claws, stared at them in shock and pain, and passed out.

I’m thinking Alpha Flight… #13? 17? Way back, anyway.

[sub]'Course, I mostly gave up on reading the X-Books when Magneto ripped the metal out of Logan’s skeleton. I had the urge to send a dictionary with the entry for “fused” highlighted to the writers. His bones weren’t metal plated, they were metal, you dipshits![/sub]

Fenris:

Sorry, I disagree. Lee without Ditko yielded the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, and the X-Men. Ditko without Lee yielded Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, the Question, the Creeper, Shade the Changing Man, Hawk and Dove…definitely characters with some potential, but never top stars, always second-stringers.

Lee was playing with the “ordinary man, flawed” hero thing in a number of other books before and after getting Ditko in on Spider-Man. And that’s too much a part of Spider-Man’s appeal to ignore.

I say Spidey owes the majority of his to Stan Lee, not to Steve Ditko.

Chaim Mattis Keller

What was the explaination for all the animal themed heroes?

Oh, they covered that, like last year in a Spider-man issue written by Strazinki, the guy who wrote Babylon 5.

It asked why Spidey fought Animal type villains, Captain America was messing around with soldier-bad guys, and the X-Men always had to fight evil mutants. I was a pretty vague explanation that had to do with like-forces seeking each other out to exert dominance of their kind.

I’d never really thought about it before that. I was a cool point.

Who or what are “Marvel Knights”? I don’t read many current comic books outside of collections, but I’ve noticed that many (all? most?) Marvel titles these days feature a Marvel Knights logo.

Are the Knights a certain subset of Marvel heroes? All Marvel heroes? Something else? What does it mean?

The Marvel Knights was a comic line by Marvel that focused on Characters set in a more mature style.

The books released under the Knights imprint were/are “Black Panther” “Daredevil” “Punisher” “Captain America” “Black Widow” and “Marvel Knights” There may have been more, but these are the big ones.

Current EiC Joe Quesada was the editor for the Marvel Knights line, which did so well, he got the nod to move up to take over the whole she-bang.

What is the full, COMPLETE Wolverine origin?

origin spoilers please!

BUT (and I LOVE this kind of discussion!!! :slight_smile: ) Your “Lee without Ditko” was actually “Lee With Kirby” so what you’ve done is compare Ditko with Kirby (if you subtract Lee from both sides of the equation).

Think of it this way:

Ditko alone:
Captain Atom
Blue Beetle
The Question
The Creeper
Shade
Hawk and Dove

All characters who are used with some regularity by DC.

Kirby alone
The entire New Gods pantheon
(Orion
Lightray
Darkseid
Black Racer
The Forever People
Metron
etc)
Mr. Miracle
Captain Victory
Paranax, the Fighting Fetus*
Goody Rickles*
Giant Green Jimmy Olsen*

DC is STILL mining most of the these concepts for all they’re worth. (At least the ones that belong to DC)

Lee without Ditko and Kirby
She-Hulk (maybe.)
Captain Mar-Vell
um…
That’s about it.

I’d concede that Lee created the “Hero with problems” thing in comics, and he was FAR better at dialogue than either Ditko (who was competent) or Kirby (who wasn’t. I refer you to the issue of New Gods where Dan Turpin compares UFOs to his hat and the reader wonders what Dan’s been smoking), but most of the important characters were the artist’s.

Hell, the Marvel Method (writer gives vague plot, artist draws it, writer fills in dialogue) kind of forces the artist to do more. According to Lee, his plot for FF 48-50 was something like “What if the F.F. met and fought God?” and from that, we got Galactus and the Silver Surfer.

Fenris

*Well, not these guys, so much. :stuck_out_tongue:

Fenris:

I had a feeling that this would enter the discussion. And quite frankly, I think this proves my point rather than refutes it. The New Gods have a cult following, but have never been able to sustain a comic series for three years running. The only Kirby-wthout-Lee creation (other than Captain America, and Lee could probably get a huge amount of credit for his modern persona anyway) that kept a book alive for longer than three years have been the Demon (which I think lasted, in the 1990’s series until issue # 57) and Kamandi (imploded with many other DC titles at issue 59)…and those didn’t even make it to the five-year mark. The one thing that any long-lasting character by either Kirby or Ditko had in common was Lee’s writing.

Lee without Kirby or Ditko produced Daredevil (Bill Everett was the artist). You forgot that one.

“Characters used with some regularity” can describe many minor characters whose creators have long since been forgotten. Stan Lee knew how to take a concept with potential and turn it into a star character. Far be it from me to deny either Ditko or Kirby their rightful place in the history of modern comic books, but (IMHO) Stan Lee’s reputation has not been artificially inflated, nor his contribution overstated.

Chaim Mattis Keller

(I’m not at home and can’t get to my collection right now. So, this is from memory)

“What is that?”

“The question is, captain, what will it be when it is born? That is Paranax, the fighting fetus!”

And

“Say something, damn you!”

“He can’t even say ‘dada’! He hasn’t been born yet!”

Bloody Mariane, Finarkin the fearless, Ursan the unclean, and Paranax the fighting fetus.

Clearly, the standout character is paranax. Mariane is standard vilianess with secret who hero will probably fall in love with. Finarkin is just a thug with a novastick. Ursan is an alien thug with a bizzare power due to species.

But Paranax is like nobody else.

Sadly, I only have the first issue of the quadrant x story arc. What was the final fate of the enigmatic embryo of evil?

Enough to make a living but not enough to be considered well off, typically. Also, the nature of hunting as a freelancer for new work all the time means you can suddenly find yourself about to lose your house, such as William Messner-Loebs was recently.

–Cliffy

DC and Marvel both publish some good books, but their signal to noise ratio is considerable lower than many other publishers. Oni Press, for instance, hasn’t published a single book that didn’t get positive notices in their five year history, and they are the publishers of some of the finest work in comics, such as Barry Ween, Queen & Country, and Courtney Crumrin. It is a pathetic feature of the industry that today most readers buy more DC and Marvel books than any other publisher combined, and it’s leading to the death of the form.

–Cliffy

I gotta disagree with you there. People wouldn’t buy more from DC and Marvel if they didn’t enjoy what they read. I don’t see how that’s a bad thing. I figure most indy and small press owe their continuing existence to the Big Two. Spider-Man and Batman draw people into the comic shop where the casual reader has a chance of stumbling across some great works by other publishers.

Besides which, most of Marvel and DC’s works are approved for most readers and thus can get displayed on spinner racks and magazine shelves in mainstream stores, which gives them the opportunity to sell more. Most indy print comics are geared toward a more adult reader and are more appropriate at specialty shops, and thus have a smaller audience.

If anything, I feel DC and Marvel are attributing to the continuation of the comics medium. If they weren’t around, how much longer do you think comics would stay viable? There would be underground comics, for sure, but nowhere near the number you see today.

Actually I agree with Cliffy to a certain extent, at least in the long term. This lack of diversity is what makes the reading comic books to be considered a geek hobby, a label most people avoid. Most of this I think can be attributed to super-heroes, and to a lesser extent fantasy proper, dominating the medium.

Super-heroes are seen as being campy (thank you Batman TV show), something that most people don’t see as something they can develop a long term devotion to. Also it doesn’t matter what type of stories you write involving super-heroes, as long as super-heroes are in the story it’s not seen as being serious, or more specifically adult. I mean, comics are pretty much the only place where the protagonist is from another planet, gets a funky high from a yellow sun and can deflect bullets with his bare hands; that just doesn’t sound serious or adult.

Add to this the common perception of comics fans and you have a medium that most people won’t develop an interest in out of fear of guilt by association. Your average fan can rip off minutiae about super-hero universes and that’s a level of devotion that most people find to be odd, about a topic that most people consider trivial. And let’s be honest, when you go into a comics shop most people in there don’t look like varsity football players; there are a higher proportion of people than the normal population who look like they couldn’t get a date if they were shopping in the produce section of the supermarket (and they’re probably wearing Wolverine T-shirts). They don’t have to make up the majority of comics readers (and I don’t think it should matter even if they did), but they do fulfill the definition of geek and that’s something most people don’t want to associated with.

In terms of the comics industry as a self-contained industry it doesn’t look too promising either. Since comics is the only medium dominated by a genre, fantasy, or to be specific its subgenre, super-heroes, that doesn’t allow for a lot of variability in terms of what is published. Yes, smaller publishers may print more stuff that might be considered mainstream (thrillers, drama, etc.) but guys in tights dominate the market and you can bet that Oni would change its publishing to super-heroes in a NY Minute if they thought they could get the sales of Marvel or DC.

I fear that innovation is being choked out of the market. The majority of works that people declare to be innovative are still based in super-hero roots and are only exploring that subgenre, not breaking new ground outside of it (Watchmen, DKR). Maus was a Pulitzer prize winner and yet I’d be willing to bet that ninety percent of regular collectors have never read it and quite a few have never even heard of it. If there isn’t a heartier demand for innovation then there won’t be any innovative books published thus causing a glut of derivative material, more so than you see in other mediums, and actually I think this has already happened.

Take a look at this link to a comics market share chart: Diamond Comics Distributor. Publishers who primarily print fantasy and its subgenre super-heroes control over eighty percent of the market. Also take a look at the top twenty published comics and the top twenty graphic novels: super-heroes comprise 95% of the top comics, graphic novels do a bit better with (by my count) super-heroes comprising only 50%. Once you toss in all fantasy and sci-fi though the numbers hit 100%. Not a whole lot of variety there.

This also ties back into comics not being a medium desired by the average Joe in that if some guy walks in off the street into a comics store he’s not going to see a whole lot to interest him. Most people will simply be turned off by a lack of variety in their possible selection, and the fact that most of the available selection is fantasy won’t help matters either. Fantasy is decidedly uncool to most people unless it’s on a TV or movie screen.

I also have to mention that the average age of comics readers goes up and the number of comics readers keeps shrinking. Your average reader is now in his mid to late twenties, whereas forty years ago they hadn’t even hit their teen years. This all by itself does not bode well for the future of the industry.

This average age of the reader coupled with the tendency for the readers to be rabid about facts and details only makes matters worse. These two factors are what are leading publishers to print multiple issue, open ended story arcs that have to adhere to years of continuity. This means that if a guy off the street does walk into a shop and he actually picks up a book he’s likely going to be confused as to what’s going on (synopses in the front of books helps fight this, but the reader is probably still going to be disoriented). That’s not a reader who’s likely to come back. I could see this being fought somewhat if the industry moves away from 22 page comics towards graphic novels, and I suspect that one day we’re going to see that happen.

Now who knows, I could be completely wrong and the recent spate of successful super-hero movies may cause a huge spike in comics sales that shatters the old barriers associated with comic books. Or maybe there will be a giant surge in diversity that manages to overcome the geek stigmatism around comics and that will lead to higher sales. However, I suspect that any surge in sales due to movies will be temporary at best, lasting only a few years at most, and I don’t see any diversity surges in the near future either.

Marvel and DC will never fully disappear as long as they hold the rights to such icons as Spider-Man and Superman, and comics will never disappear as long as someone has the urge to draw a story, however comics as an industry I suspect is slowly drawing to a close.

Let me clarify something real quick.

Shrinking readership is the comics industry’s number one problem and the lack of diversity and accessibility are the primary obstacles to it gaining new readers.

Wasn’t sure that was clear since I didn’t mention shrinking sales until three quarters of the way through my post.

Can’t believe it took me this long to actually post something in this thread…this is the kind of subject that I’m usally all over like the Venom symbiote in the first two minutes. :slight_smile:

Don’t really have any strong opinions about any of the storylines/arcs/worlds/retcons, so I’ll just ask question I usually do, namely, Where Are They Now:

Mysterio - I read the entire (very well written, very compelling, BTW) Mysterio’s-last-stand story, where he discovers he’s contracted incurable cancer from the smoke-producing chemicals he’s been using for years, and creates one final grand illusion so he can go out with a bang. A perfect end; if anything, probably a better one than a petty loser like him deserved. Now he was a robot, or sumpthin’, and the real one’s still alive. Okay…first off, I know a lot of comic book folk have back-from-the-dead abilities that would make Geese Howard jealous, but I understood that when a guy willingly takes his own life, this means that IT’S OVER. I mean, that was the case for Kraven, right? (Please tell me it was the case for Kraven…) Furthermore, wouldn’t Daredevil be able to tell the difference between the real deal and an amazingly lifelike robot…like, say, the absence of a heartbeat?

The Kingpin - I could swear that he’s been killed, busted, exposed, humiliated, knocked off the throne, or otherwise whupped at least twenty times. He probably has THE most charmed life of any Marvel character I know…any criminal who can take on The Punisher and live to tell about it has more than earned that distinction. The last I saw, Echo (someone he tricked into going after Daredevil) shot him in both eyes, and all he suffered was blindness (and I wouldn’t bet against him finding a way past that little annoyance).

The Rhino - Read the first part of the “Flowers” story…missed the rest. Wouldn’t surprise me if he eventually went out in a manner similar to Mysterio.

Venom - Formerly one of Spider-Man’s most bitter foes…now just another violent right-wing nutcase, which, of course, is no longer considered unusual. :smiley: Anyone know what the heck happened to him?

Iron Man/War Machine/Stark Industries - Read the entire “US War Machine” story (great reading, and I like the creative freedom teh MAX line gives), which implied that Mr. Stark was about to take matters back into his own hands. I’ve yet to see this continued anywhere. What happened?

Nick Fury - Last I saw of him, in the “graphic novel” story called simply Fury, he was about to be given a new bureaucratic position and he’d gotten himself into some legal trouble (probably due to sticking his cigar into the SHIELD president’s eye). Does this mean he’s seen his last war? Somehow, I don’t think answering a prosecuting attorneys’ questions on the stand is going to be all that entertaining (except for the inevitable too-frank responses by him, of course).

Great thread! Nice to see another one of my lifelong obsessions discussed.

I assume Venom sorta faded into the background as an unused character. They’re revamping the character in his own series (dealing mainly with the symbiote, it seems) that’s coming out in April.