BTW, what about the Gay John episode in The Simpsons??
The question got lost in some political debate a while back, and I’d like to second it 
— G. Raven
Quite a few gay men are infected by the press about them and internalize the stereotype. When I lived in Washington DC, I found it was a great city to score in, but a horrible one to see someone on an emotionally intimate basis.
I could go to bars, have great conversations, which could lead to sex if I let it(and occasionally did), but in every case, when I wanted to get a little more serious, they ran like hell.
Maybe it is the transient nature of DC, or maybe it is the faster pace of life there. What I can say, from personal experience, is that relationships there have the shelf life of unrefrigerated butter. I was happy to leave, and didn’t find my husband until I moved to Oregon.
IMHO… you’ve got to find someone with the same values. It took moving here to find a man from the Midwest(like myself), who could be real and allow himself to be known. I wish you luck, goboy.
This was suggested two weeks ago in an episode of Queer as Folk. The thought that gay men aren’t monogamous, and that because they are guys, they have to worry about ‘slipping up’ and being ruled by their hormones really pissed me off.
It seemed to blame behavior on hormones rather than personal decision and will. Just because I think someone is hot doesn’t mean I want to cheat on my husband. The value of sex without intimacy is very low. If I want an orgasm, I’ll give one to myself. If I want sex, I’ll have that with the man I’m committed to.
While some people choose to have non-monogamous relationships, not have relationships at all, or have polyamorous relationships, I don’t think that it speaks to some drive which cannot be controlled. I think that many don’t take personal responsibility for their actions.
YMMV.
Not to be construed as a personal attack on anyone or criticism on the quoted statments of the previous poster.
Not valid in Montana, Idaho, or Hawaii. No taxes or title included. Post no bills. Burma shave.
I don’t cheat, because I don’t commit 
— G. Raven
I’m sorry, but if I hear the words “internalizing the stereotype” one more time, I think I’m going to scream. Isn’t it at all possible that some gay people might from time to time decide to do something that happens to be in line with a stereotype someone else came up with, without being accused of internalizing it?
Jeez, it’s not like people accuse me of internalizing a Canadian stereotype when I behave politely or talk about the Constitution.
What I did was make a generalization, and one that I have experienced as being true. From what I have seen, quite a few gay men and lesbians initially act in ways that reinforce the sterotypes that they have been brought up with and only move out of that when they mature and forge a personal identity. This is not to say one should be straight acting by any means. What I am saying is that some people follow the stereotype because it is all they know and think that is what it will take to be accepted.
Thank you Morrison!
Keep reaching for that rainbow!
jarbaby
That’s not really what I was complaining about. It seems like it’s impossible to consider that going for sex rather than romance could be the result of an actual personal preference on a person’s part. Look at your use of “to mature and forge a personal identity”. What if a person has, and has decided that looking for sex in preference to love is part of that identity? Why is a preference for sex always seen as immature?
Esprix (and other esteemed gentlemen of the lavender persuasion),
Over in PC=Polite, december is busy quoting Camille Paglia who, he describes as representing herself as an expert in gay culture. I agree with the assessment that Ms. Paglia represents herself as an expert in gay culture (hey, she represents herself as an expert in almost anything she comments on, especially if it has anything to do with sex), but, what is your take? Does the woman know what she is talking about re: gay culture?
I believe its a guy thing; wanting sex over love.
Its just that male homosexuals are GUYS, so thats where the stereotype comes in.
I recall Howard Stern saying it must be nice to be a gay man; you don’t have to bother with the dating ritual of convincing her you “really care”, just hop into bed.
I’m Not saying here that all men prefer sex over love now, juast mentioning that thats how some people think it goes; mostly women…
The hyper-silly for or against gayness thread has raised something in my mind, perhaps interesting or deserving comment. And I just saw my local Sigfried and Roy on blades this evening who are the subject, so let me elaborate.
As you all know I live in Cairo at the moment. I live more specifically in a suburb with a fairly high number of Westerners. The rest of the folks are largely middle class Egyptians or other middle-class non-Westerners.
Now among our local pop. are two guys who my ever interesting apartment mate has named Sigfried and Roy after the two German Vegas performers. He presumes they’re gay. I guess he’s probably right. Well, onto our local version and the point. They’re two big blond Germans, truly fab all around with the habit of rollerblading(*) around our neighborhood hand in hand in little 1970s porn-shorts, tank tops, being very fab. Now in the Village I wouldn’t have given them a second look. In Cairo, well…. I can’t say that their look or style blends. In fact I cringe whenever I see them.
And there we have it. Why do I cringe when I see these two fellows, who I presume to be happily out of the closet living in Cairo, above all when I wouldn’t notice them elsewhere?
I’ve given this some thought. For which I may get roasted.
First, I cringe because whenever I see fellow Westerners doing things to feed the image of us as a bunch of insensitive freaks. Like the chickie in hotpants at the Sphinx (or the Father of Terror) and those stupid pointy objects on the last visit I was forced to make escorting visitors around. I really want to grab some people sometimes and shake them – when in Rome do as Romans being my philosophy. So I don’t wear shorts, for example, outside.
Second, I cringe because I think S&R don’t realize they may be in danger. Not that Cairo is truly dangerous, but it is safe to say that the fundamentalists don’t view (open) homosexuality as halal (kosher, permitted). Oh no. Nor does the average Egyptian for that matter, but most Egyptians are pretty peaceful folks, so they’re not likely to bash. In fact, if you’re low key here, I think you’re safer than in most Western cities on average. However, the extremists, well they like to put bullets in the backs of heads of people who don’t fit in when they can. I don’t travel outside of the metro area under armed escort for trivial reasons. Driver doesn’t pack heat for trivial reasons.
I’m divided about how far one should go when living in another country in terms of conforming to local traditions and expectations. However, I do feel one should make some efforts. I also have a sensation that S&R aren’t respecting some of the basic social conventions here. But then I feel bad that these guys make me cringe.
Perhaps therefore our other members can now dissect this, or comment on gay travellers/expats and coping/adjusting/dealing with other cultures which are not open to Western style gay identity.()
(*: Actually this in itself is incredibly stupid given how people drive here, but…)
(: I say this because from my small handful of gay Arab friends, it seems to me that they have different approaches – I exclude here for the moment the Westernized)
Collounsbury, there is no need to feel bad for cringing. you’re not cringing because they’re gay; you’re cringing because they are dumbass Westerners who are showing contempt for the local mores by their little display. I absolutely loathe Westerners, straight or gay, who behave as though they need not respect the local sensibilities. If they want to hold hands, that’s not unusual in an Arab society. But roller blading in shorts and muscle-tees in a conservative society is practically begging to get kneecapped by a religious extremist.
True, true, but it’s hard to shake the feeling.
Did I mention their shorts are 1970s style super-hot pant shorts? (I call them porn shorts) It’s a bit awkward to say the least.
I do like the hand holding though, after I got used to it. In the right context I can stroll around just like nothing holding a friend’s hand chatting. Would be nice if the West wasn’t so freaky about that.
C, if they stopped holding hands they’d be rollerblading in denial, which is clearly, if not a bad pun, an impossible task (phonetically speaking).
Has anyone taken the time to, you know, mention that someone might find them dead one morning?!?
Camille Paglia is a ninnyhammer who disguises her own internalized Catholic dogma as some kind of brilliant new revelation. She exists purely in the realm of theory; she’s been trapped so high in the ivory tower for so long that the lack of oxygen has affected her brain.
I’m sorry, but anyone who says that a gay-bashing victim is to blame for his or her own assault has led far too sheltered a life.
The first time I saw guys holding hands here in China I didn’t understand what the hell was going on. On the one hand it was great to see how tolerant people seemed to be towards gays, on the other hand it just didn’t add up.
Then someone told me it’s an asian thing to hold hands with your friends and my entire view of the world changed
— G. Raven
goboy:
matt_mcl:
Just thought this was in interesting juxtoposition, though I suspect that you both agree essentially–that taking precautions is not an admission that the actions of the ther person are in any way justified, just an admission that the world sucks nad that their are terrible extremists out there.
Matt is correct that gay-bashing victims are not to blame for being attacked. In our society, the laws are supposed to protect everyone, gay or straight. However, C is talking about about two hot, blond, muscled, German guys (pardon my drooling :D), already sticking out like sore thumbs in Cairo, prancing about in clothing which the locals view as indecent and acting like a couple of West Hollywood queens, which would rightly be viewed as an affront to the Koran and local values. All this in a society
where being gay is seriously illegal.
People have a right to live their lives without being gay-bashed out of the blue. If, however, you tweak the noses of the local homophobes, behaving in a way that outrages their sensibilities and daring them to react, you have to expect an unpleasant reaction. I’m not saying it’s it’s right; I’m just saying that it’s not unexpected.
Cairo is not Berlin.
Gay Guy checking in - was visiting home in Philly for a few days, so I’m behind, but I’ll catch up shortly.
Oh, and matt? Thanks for reminding me how much I love you. On a more visceral level, I’d add, “I’d rather you hated me for who I am than loved me for who I’m not.” If it weren’t for the drag queens, Stonewall wouldn’t have made the papers.
Esprix
Gay Guy-
I recently posted a message that began as a question.
I wrote a very long description of a debate I was involved in at a gun website poli board. The moderator posted a release from the Parent’s Rights Coalition. It had lots of allegations of how Massachussetts educators are trying to “turn kids gay”. I rambled on and on, finally getting to my quesrtion “Is there a ‘Gay Conspiracy’?”. After I wrote it all out I realized how incredibly absurd my question was…
ANYWAY- I received an e-mail from a board regular asking me to post here. Since I answered my own question (to my satisfaction anyway) I’ll ask another. I hope it hasn’t been covered here before.
Were you molested as a youngster? The debate I was involved in had a couple of posts from people who say every gay man they know was molested as a child; usually by an authority figure.
FWIW- I’m a straight male. I’m a conservative gun owner. It just so happens that I don’t give a damn what 2 consenting adults do behind closed doors. It takes all kinds