Ask the Girl in the Wheelchair

In My Humble Opinion
861

Aw, fack. I knew it. Sorry. :frowning:

Sure. I agree with that. Mostly because people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. And pretty much everyone lives in a glass house, morally.

Are you saying that a 14 year old (and barely, at that) has the exact same capacity and responsibility, legally and morally, as a 20 year old man? A man who can drive, vote, join the military, sign a legal contract, and get married, among other things? I hope not.

Look, I totally agree that with age, (usually) comes wisdom. When I’m 50, I’d hope to be wiser than I am now at 26. And when I’m 80, I’d hope to be wiser still. But does that mean that I can retroactively declare myself not to have been an adult or responsible at 26, and again at 50? What if I live to 100? Then would 80 just have been a relatively immature phase during which no one could hold me accountable for my actions? We risk obliterating the meaningfulness of adulthood if we constantly scoot it back depending on our own subjective perspective at various points in our lives. Which is fine when composing a memoir; legally speaking, it gets a little squirrelly, to say the least.

Think of this: Had you been sober that night, and another intoxicated 20 year old had plowed into you and caused your injury, would you have tut-tutted his actions, approving the court’s decision to treat him as a minor and give him a slap on the wrist that would have been sealed from public view anyway? I’m guessing not. I’m guessing you’d want him held accountable, and would be really insulted by the implication that he wasn’t adult enough to deserve punishment for his poor choices.

Drunk driving at any age is foolish and illegal. However, the consequences are far more severe for someone over 18. And 18 year olds bear the responsibility of knowing and accepting this fact.

I have no issue with any of this. You made a mistake, and you paid for it. Was it perfect justice? Depends who you ask, I suppose (which probably makes it a dumb question to ask). If you ask me, I would say “no,” being paralyzed for the rest of your life is not a “fair” punishment. But I do think you are culpable for what happened to you, which sounds like something you agree with.

And the doctor made a mistake, so he or she needs to take the responsibility for that mistake. I suspect you wouldn’t appreciate the defense that he or she was too young, that a more seasoned doctor would have done a better job, so it wasn’t his or her fault?

And I will say that, IMHO, though you and the doctor each bear responsibility for your injury, yours is different, qualitatively. You were involved in at least 2 criminal activities when you got hurt, whereas (presumably) the doctor just made an unfortunate human error.

As an afterthought: Have you ever thought about how you might feel if you had walked away unscathed, but had paralyzed someone else that night? Do you think they might feel it was fair for you to go to prison for the rest of your life? After all, the disability you caused them was a lifetime thing–why shouldn’t your punishment be, too?

I’m sorry that this conversation verged into your personal life, and I would totally respect it if you didn’t feel like having it. I’m also sorry if I’m coming off as harsh here. I’m open to hearing your side and possibly having my mind changed as a result.

862

[quote=“umkay, post:861, topic:622436”]


Are you saying that a 14 year old (and barely, at that) has the exact same capacity and responsibility, legally and morally, as a 20 year old man? A man who can drive, vote, join the military, sign a legal contract, and get married, among other things? I hope not

.

Not at all; my point is that to pin immaturity and irresponsibility down to any specific age can lead to difficulties.


Look, I totally agree that with age, (usually) comes wisdom. When I'm 50, I'd hope to be wiser than I am now at 26. And when I'm 80, I'd hope to be wiser still. But does that mean that I can retroactively declare myself not to have been an adult or responsible at 26, and again at 50? What if I live to 100? Then would 80 just have been a relatively immature phase during which no one could hold me accountable for my actions? We risk obliterating the meaningfulness of adulthood if we constantly scoot it back depending on our own subjective perspective at various points in our lives. Which is fine when composing a memoir; legally speaking, it gets a little squirrelly, to say the least.

I don’t even know what to say to this. I never once said, or tried to say, that my youth at the time of my accident should mitigate any level of responsibility on my part for that accident. Rather I said, or tried to say, that something that happened when I merely was a kid, in all my poor judgment and impulsivity, is surely no reason for me to have deserved that ultimate outcome.


Think of this: Had you been sober that night, and another intoxicated 20 year old had plowed into you and caused your injury, would you have tut-tutted his actions, approving the court's decision to treat him as a minor and give him a slap on the wrist that would have been sealed from public view anyway? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing you'd want him held accountable, and would be really insulted by the implication that he wasn't adult *enough* to deserve punishment for his poor choices

.

Again, I don’t know what to say to this. First of all, I hit a tree and hurt no one else-no one else was involved. To speculate in such a way that you are is to drastically alter what actually happened that night. And what do you mean, “the court’s decision to treat him as a minor and give him a slap on the wrist”? Where is that coming from? I am flummoxed by this entire paragraph. I ABSOLUTELY never said or implied that I wasn’t “adult” enough to deserve punishment for my choices. Where is this coming from?


As an afterthought: Have you ever thought about how you might feel if you had walked away unscathed, but had paralyzed someone else that night? Do you think they might feel it was fair for you to go to prison for the rest of your life? After all, the disability you caused them was a lifetime thing--why shouldn't your punishment be, too?[/

QUOTE]
:dubious:

863

AHhhhhh! I’m so tired but I wanted to finish that damned post and now I don’t even know wth I did. Oops. My bad. :frowning:

864

What the fuck are you even arguing, Jamie?

865

Aaaack! Tree killer!

866

After reading all of this thread, I think umkay would make one of the best damn laywers/judges in the country.

867

What a difficult and useful conversation – huge credit to everyone trying to contribute to it!

Tidy words like “responsibility” and “deserved” suggest that there are clear concepts and truths behind them, but it really isn’t that easy, it is much more messy than that.

It would be fair of the universe to arrange things so that we got something like a fine for everything we did that had risk involved. For being 19 and driving drunk, maybe it would be the equivalent of another ten dollars for every 0.1% of blood alcohol times every mile you drove. So, you were over the limit and drove home from the bar? That totals $800, every time you pull that stunt, and yeah you don’t get to go to the beach next weekend and have to work a second job instead. For being 14 and trying a flip, when you’re with your brothers at a ski place? Well, you know, there’s a one in a hundred million chance (if that), so (tap tap tap) that works out to a fine of 86 cents, please, and good luck with the flip. Ah, youth.

So when I was 19 I did drive home under the influence sometimes, and I never paid any particular price for it (and it is typical of a drinking and driving episode not to cause an accident or hurt anybody or get anybody in trouble). This is a horrible thing, in retrospect, and I am very sorry for it, and think it would be fair to say I am responsible for enormous tragedies that, according to various influences including random chance, just did not occur. If there is some hidden scoreboard on which I earned quadriplegia which, by mistake, got assigned to umkay, what can we possibly say or think about it?

And there are many others in my unhelpful position. This was before MADD and checkpoints, when the attitude was that pretty much all of us drove under the influence occasionally, and if you are too cruel in court or too vigorous pointing your finger at an offender, well, you better hope it isn’t you next time. After all, why did bars have parking lots if we were really not going to drink and drive (and note this was before anybody talked about “designated drivers”, and when you were allowed to drink in bars at 19). If there were a way to become a person who had never driven under the influence, well, sign me up.

Now, for one thing, I don’t drink at all (25 years sober). For another thing, I drive the speed limit, and people crowd behind me and resent my slow driving, and I pull over and let them pass frequently. I imagine how I would feel if a little child darted out into my path and I killed them, and then think how much I would hope that at least I had not been speeding, or on the phone, or fiddling with the radio, or how much worse it would be if I had been doing those things. This is a reasonable thought process and conclusion, but I can report most people are not thinking that way. Most are speeding, and plenty are on the phone. Just last week I heard a large group conversation in which the young majority expressed their shared frustration with the older minority for driving the speed limit, for being slow and in the way. For me this shift has come with growing older and having more experiences; completely for free, and not because of being a good person. I find it hard to hate or resent younger people for having had attitudes different from this at the time their actions, plus the random fate ingredient, turned tragic.

It is certainly good of people who have had tragedy in which they played an integral role to not turn to the comfort of trying to make it entirely somebody else’s fault. For those of us who have not had such a tragedy – imagine how tempting it must be to take comfort in blaming somebody else and making it all their fault.

It is hard to talk about these things, and I wonder if this post will bother anybody or if I have said anything wrongheaded. I hope not. It’s messy, though, isn’t it?

868

Ambivalid, you are lucky as shit that your stupid, irresponsible 20-year-old self didn’t kill or injure innocent people. Maybe you should try focusing on that instead of on whether or not you “deserve” the consequences for those actions.

869

I think there’s also a difference between Jamie (Ambi) saying that he was irresponsible - a reference to the facts of the choices that were made, and someone saying they were irresponsible *because *they were young/younger.

It also sucks that the way the law works (because it HAS to) draws such a clear arbitrary line at a certain relatively young age. We do know now that we don’t mentally mature until something like 24. I could only imagine the horror that would ensue if people weren’t allowed to drive or vote or work as an adult until EIGHT YEARS after they do currently, but that’s the way the research is pointing, if the laws would acknowledge that. I think a lot of “young adult” infractions and poor choices are partly a result of the bad mismatch between reality and the way the laws are structured.

I also think there’s a enormous difficulty with the relatedness of the words responsibility and irresponsible - the latter has become a matter-of-fact descriptor of “youth” or of someone who is simply making poor choices, while the former bears a pretty heavy weight of culpability and consequence attached to it.

For the record, I don’t think that it should be said that people “deserve” anything that happens to them in life - that’s too much of a morally-freighted word, and no one can know enough about another person’s thought processes to really make that assessment appropriate. I also feel strongly that talk of “deserving what you get” can be used as a way to inflict guilt on people in order to moderate/control their behavior, and I get twitchy about that also.

Despite that, I do agree that it falls upon individuals to be aware of the possible natural consequences for their actions, no matter how unlikely. It sucks, but life is random, and consequences do follow from actions.

I would be a lot more :dubious: about someone going on about how “unfair” it was that they got injured in an accident caused by their own actions than I would about someone who was unhappy that it was so “unlikely” to have suffered such dire consequences. I know that’s kindof a nitpick, but I have encountered both, and I think it’s indicative of the underlying mindset. In *neither *case would I really begrudge them the opportunity to moan and groan a bit, because it really *does *suck, and it will suck *permanently *- all because of one temporary decision/action.

870

There are two things here that are not mutually exclusive.

You can (and I do) feel bad for anyone who is disabled regardless of their culpability in the event that caused it. I want them to have everything they need to be comfortable and happy, and I support legislation or social structures that help them live as fulfilling a life as possible.

But if you want to get into the nitty gritty philosophy of it (and I would only do so in a discussion like this, not unprompted) then yes a 20 year old should be able to foresee the chain of events that would lead from him driving while impaired to getting seriously injured. Even more importantly for ethical purposes, he should foresee his actions potentially seriously harming others. I wouldn’t use the term “deserves it” because it sounds harsh, but I would say that they brought it on themselves, which granted only sounds slightly less harsh.

But like I say, it’s not even a useful distinction to make because it doesn’t change how I feel about that person’s disability in practical terms.

Obviously I can’t speak for Umkay, but from what I gather this is something like how she feels, please correct me if I’m wrong. I just hope this bit doesn’t go on too much longer for the sake of everyone’s feelings.

As for these hypothetical jerks (hopefully nonexistent) who think people in wheelchairs deserve it somehow,my gf was born with her disability. I’d like to see them say that about her.

871

:confused:

872

Ok, let me attempt to clarify myself here, I don’t understand exactly why I have been so misconstrued.

Yes, as a 20 year old, I was old enough to know that drinking and driving was 1) illegal 2) dangerous and 3) stupid. Never have I used my age at the time of my accident as any sort of excuse to avoid full responsibility for my actions. Never. When I make remarks about being “a kid”, it is in relation to the idea of my decision-making faculties not being as well-developed as they are now when I’m fully grown. But the “responsibility” for my actions lies nowhere else but with me.

873

While I can’t say I know how I would feel if someone else were responsible for causing my accident, I can say that I don’t hold onto any feelings of loss, bitterness or remorse from it. My disability is now my life, my existence, a central part of who I am. I don’t curse it. If someone else was responsible for bringing this part of me into the world, without intent or malice, I would hold no long-term anger towards them. Yes, they should face appropriate legal punishment but such punishment would absolutely fall short of life imprisonment. That would be throwing the life away of the person who made a mistake in judgment that one time. My life isn’t over, why should their’s be?

Now to flip this around on me, if I was the one responsible for paralyzing someone in an accident, I would probably feel like spending the rest of my life in prison; if not dying. While I could empathize with the temptation to lock up ‘the bastard who did this’ (me) for all eternity, in all reality I would have to admit that that wasn’t the fair punishment.

874

Would I have “tut-tutted” his actions? If I had been paralyzed by them? Of course not. Who is “tut-tutting” any actions here??:confused: What court treated what person as a minor and gave them a slap on the wrist? What exactly are you talking about here? I’m confused. I certainly wasn’t treated as a minor by the courts and I ceraintly didn’t receive just a “slap on the wrist”. I absolutely never implied that I wasn’t “adult enough” to deserve punishment.

875

Ha! You wish you did! :wink:

But seriously, don’t worry about a thing. There is no “off-limits” subject matter for me. If I had any sort of problem discussing anything, I would simply abstain from discussing it. It’s merely stimulating conversation. :slight_smile:

876

[armchair psychologist]

I think there’s an explanation for people blaming the victim.

Sometimes, the most awful things happen without any reason. This makes a lot of people feel very nervous and completely powerless.

There’s a solution for that: assigning blame! (Serves her right for going out after dark. That bum should’ve just gotten himself a job. Why would you even drive a Toyota?) This way, some control is regained. “It’s their own dumb fault, I would never do something that stupid.”

And thus; Crisis averted!

[/armchair psychologist]

877

I think this goes too far. It doesn’t sound to me like Ambivalid is trying to hang the blame for his accident on anybody else. Out of all the people who did things more or less like what Ambivalid chose to do, his consequences are fairly unusually painful, aren’t they? You sound really angry. Are you that angry at so many of the rest of us that made similarly unwise choices, especially around that age? I bet a lot of us earned the same treatment, whatever it is.

The random part of this whole deal is really ugly. And, 20 year olds really do tend to be more foolish than older adults. Many of our 20 year old selves have some stupid and irresponsible stretches. Usually nothing this bad happens, but it isn’t strictly and solely a result of the person’s choices.

One thing interesting about this thread is how people whose outcomes are statistically very rare have managed. Otherwise typical people in extremely rare and unusual situations often create some pretty fascinating and useful life stories.

878

One time, when I was young, I took a turn too fast on a wet road, and slid into oncoming traffic on one of the busiest highways in my small city, and couldn’t regain control of my car for several seconds.

Luckily, I just so happened to do this at a time when there didn’t happen to be any oncoming traffic traveling at 50+ miles per hour into that lane. So I got back into my lane in time, and got out of the way of the oncoming traffic I saw coming towards me a few hundred feet away.

If the timing had been a little different I could have killed myself, killed my sister, or killed any number of other people. I got lucky. And all of this could have happened because I took a turn a little too fast on a wet road. I wasn’t drinking. I wasn’t on a phone, or fiddling with a radio, or anything. But tragic, terrible things can happen at a moment’s notice, and at that moment, I failed to maintain control of my vehicle. I was young and a relatively new driver, and it would have been 100% my fault.

I often go back in my mind and replay that moment and think about what I “deserve” for such a failure as a driver. I got off without even a ticket, but I certainly deserved some sort of punishment. But we can’t obsess over about what we do or don’t deserve for stupid mistakes we make. Same for drunk driving. We get what we get out of life, deserving or not. If we get caught making mistakes that are illegal, we get punished for them, and that’s about all we can do.

I feel really bad for both Ambivalid and Umkay for mistakes they made that changed their lives. And I don’t think it’s productive to say one deserved their fate more than the other, or that they either of them deserves what happened at all. I don’t even think it’s a meaningful thing to say. I could just as easily have been in an accident that disabled me, or my sister, and I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to say that I deserved it.

879

Now, if you are mooning people out your car window, and the thorn bushes lash your impudent ass as you rocket by, then you deserve it.

Hmm. Well, maybe it depends on whom you were mooning and why.

OK, still complicated.

880

Mostly I was just irritated because it seemed to me that he was trying to shrug off responsibility for his actions due to having been an immature 20-year-old. His subsequent posts have clarified, however. But to answer your question, I wouldn’t say I’m “angry,” per se, but I do have an extraordinarily low opinion of anyone who drives while impaired enough to cause an accident.