First of all, apologies to Elendil’s Heir for hijacking his thread. This will be my last post here, unless one of y’all feels the need to open a thread specific to this issue. IMHO, conditional tolerance isn’t tolerance and it isn’t what Christ attempted to teach us.
My view of this disagreement within the ECUSA - - as an outsider as I’m not Episcopalian - - is that the liberals claim to have the moral high ground as they argue that they are being truly inclusive and tolerant by embracing women and glb&t persons and elevating them to places of authority in the church. Except they aren’t tolerant of conservatives. So then they really aren’t tolerant after all, and don’t really have the high ground.
Conservatives don’t claim to be tolerant. They claim tradition, scripture, and church doctrine are incompatible with women and glb&t persons taking on certain roles in the Episcopal church. While I suppose they claim to love these people as brothers and sisters in Christ, they are consistent that certain leadership positions and rites (marriage, blessed unions) are off limits.
So, we have two groups that are intolerant about aspects of their church and faith as it applies to people with different beliefs. At least the conservatives are being intellectually honest (if intolerant) whereas the liberals are claim tolerance, but are intolerant, which is hypocritical.
Intellectually honest? HUH? Think like we do or we’ll kick you out. Yeah, real intelligence there. At least the ECUSA as a whole is saying we’ll talk but we’re leaving the door open to all God’s people. Very unlike the conservative, we don’t want you if you’re not our kind of God’s people.
I didn’t say that it’s an intelligent position, or the correct position, but rather that it is a consistent one. Intellectually honest. Not hypocritcal.
But again, it’s your church’s argument, not mine. I’m just giving you the perspective of one outsider. Your mileage may vary and all that. And again, apologies for the hijack.
Ivorybill, I apologize. I shouldn’t be coming off like I’m jumping all over you but I’m afraid that’s how it’s looking. I appreciate your viewpoint. I do think you have some valid points. Maybe it would help more if all of us involved (the Anglican Communion, I mean) would listen to what it sounds like from those who are not Anglican/Episcopal. At any rate, I am sorry for my behavior toward you. I do tend to get what I call all Episcopal geeky about stuff like General Convention. Still that’s no excuse for my behavior.
Elendil’s Heir sorry for the hijack. I wouldn’t blame you if you did reach through your monitor and slap me one upside the head for this. I’d still like to hear more of your impression of GC.
As you said, you’re not Episcopalian. My bishop, the successor to the man who confirmed me, is threatening not only my national church, but the church I grew up in by his talk of splitting off from the ECUSA because we have the temerity to ordain women and gays to the bishopric. I’m not gay, but I am a woman who’s considered the priesthood. The church I grew up in is also one of the main reasons I am a Christian, and it may have saved my life. I disagree with my bishop, as does the church I attend. If I meet him face-to-face I will treat him with respect and courtesy as my Christian beliefs demand. I also, however, deliberately avoided an opportunity to do so a few weeks ago because of my own distaste for his promotion of schisms and some personal issues I was facing at the time. There are also other matters which I will not go into here.
If you wish to impugn my status as a good Christian, go right ahead. I can point you in the direction of others who’ve joined you in the past and I’ll even give you a few things you can use against me. Please understand, however, that I see my bishop’s actions as causing direct harm to individuals and to institutions I love and have reason to be grateful to. Will I insult him? No. Will I revile him? No. Will I even tell him I believe he’s wrong? No, because others far more eloquent and qualified than I have done so and he hasn’t listened to them. Why then, should he listen to me? I have, however, lost my respect for him not because of what he believes but because of the actions he’s taken. If that makes me a lousy Chrisitan in your eyes, so be it. As I said, you’ve got plenty of company, but, just as I respect my bishop’s standing by his beliefs, if not his promoting schism, so I will stand by my beliefs. At least if I’m going to hell, it sounds like I’ll have good company. :rolleyes:
:Sigh: And then swampbear goes all noble and makes me look bad.
As I said, it’s not the difference in beliefs which get to me; it’s the promoting a permanent split, which has never happened in the Episcopal Church before.
Siege you’ve been in an especially difficult position wrt this whole thing. Even though my own Bishop has stated he’s uncomfortable with gays and lesbians being ordained, he has been willing to engage in and has even promoted open dialogue. I’ll give him that. Mostly he gets on my nerves because I just can’t understand a word the man says. He talks way fast. Still, I’ve had my moments of just wanting to forget the whole thing. Three years ago I said I was going to do this that and leave the church. Fortunately I have a good Priest who asked me to remember all the good along with the bad and weigh it all out before taking that step. He was right. So here I am. Serving on the vestry. Yet again. Hmmm… maybe he conned me… I’m trying to keep an open mind. I just hope others within our communion will too.
Oh, and I just gotta know, white or red wine with pancakes?
But it’s not your church. It’s God’s church. The bishop is doing what he thinks is most consistent with his understanding of God’s teachings via scripture and church doctrine. I would assume that you are doing the same. I realize the stakes are very high for you.
I merely asked if “I’ll tolerate you if you tolerate me first” is consistent with the Christian viewpoint. I don’t get into judging people - - that’s for God to sort out - - and I’m sorry if my question made you think I was.
At least not since the Anglican Communion split from the Roman Catholic Church.
Incidentally, I don’t find your “intolerance” argument convincing (has anyone ever put together a “you liberals are so intolerant!” argument that actually worked?) Since, you know, only one side is calling for schism. It seems the liberals are perfectly happy to have the conservatives remain a part of the Anglican Communion.
Positions submitted by others in this thread suggest that there are liberal Episcopalians who know that their actions are provocative to conservative Episcopalians and that the liberals are hoping to upset the conservatives. It seems to me that if the liberals were perfectly happy to have the conservatives remain in the ECUSA, they would be more humble about it.
Now, I understand that liberals are probably sick and tired of being humble about these issues that they care very deeply about. However, they weaken their agenda of inclusivity when they take cheap shots at those with whom they disagree. Ghandi and Martin Luther King rallied people to the justness of their causes by taking the high road and staying on it.
I was responding to what you said. I wasn’t targeting you, but it was in reply to what you said.
I think looking at the example of great people is a good way to decide how to conduct oneself. I hesitate to condemn someone, though, because they might not always live up to such august examples like the two you mentioned. We are all only human, you know. Even Dr. King and Gandhi. God only knows what they said outside the public realm.
Elendil’s Heir, when the results of the PB election were announced, how did those assembled react? I don’t know much about any of the candidates.
I’m immensely pleased to have a woman as the PB, but I’m sure if one of the men had been elected that would have been fine too. Assuming the Spirit is acting in the voting process, then the best candidate wins.
Dunno. As I wrote in the OP, I left the day before the PB was elected. From all I’ve heard, though, most people were really jazzed, and the vote by the House of Deputies was overwhelmingly in favor of confirming the new PB’s election.
I’m trying to keep an open mind. I just hope others within our communion will too.