(Um, did I touch a nerve or something?)
Apostasy is punishable by death under Islam, so there’s not much of a tradition of lapsing 100%. Check out this…(Hope this hasn’t been pasted on the thread before)
Oh no, just my late night idiom. Wasn’t meant to be hostile.
squeegee,
In answer to your question about what OBL is referring to that happened 80 years ago, I’d guess he’s referring to the final collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. This was the last of a succession of Muslim controlled states that could reasonably claim great power status and “stand up” to the West. The Ottoman Empire collapsed primarily because of internal factors rather than external pressure. In fact, certain countries expended a good deal of diplomatic energy in the 19th century to keep “the sick man of Europe” in the game as a necessary counterweight in the balance of power. Nonetheless, I believe that the “destruction” of the Ottoman empire is another example of Western “aggression” that rankles some Muslims.
This sort of ties into another point you raise with the quote from **Muslim Guy** to the effect that Muslims have been asking for decades why America hates them. I confess that I find Muslim Guy's assertion puzzling. While I don't doubt that many Muslims do believe America hates them, IMHO that opinion can't be justified by the historical record.
First, you can hardly blame The Crusades or even the collapse of the Ottomans on America. Second, while America can, perhaps, be blamed for supporting some illiberal regimes and there is anger over a perceived imbalance in U.S. policy toward Israel and the Palestinians, there is also a great deal on the other side of the balance. Without getting into all the nuances of the relative merits of American policy toward the Muslim world, America has intervened militarily three times in the last ten years to save Muslim lives when America had no particular national interest at stake, in Somalia, in Bosnia and in Kosovo.
Yet, for some reason, America gets no credit for these actions in the larger Muslim world and millions of Muslims believe America hates them. In fact, OBL condemns American involvement in Somalia! Now I know that OBL is an extreme case but this is historical revisionism on an Orwellian scale. Can someone out there with a better perspective on Muslim public opinion discuss how these events are perceived in the Muslim world?Tamerlane
Thanks for posting this link to an exegesis of OBL's public declarations. I found it very informative. Perhaps too informative as I now have even more questions than before!
My earlier question remains: Is Bin Laden actually a Muslim or not? The link you posted discusses (among many other things) a respected 13th century scholar named Taqi al-Din Ibn Taymiyyah who concluded that the Mongols were not Muslim even though they had professed Islam because they "did not govern by the law of God but combined bits of it with traditional Mongol tribal law (the “Yasa”) and things they made up themselves."
It appears that OBL is in a similar position. The verses condemning the killing of innocents and civilians have not been abrogated, have they? Does this mean that, like the Mongols, OBL is choosing which bits of God's law to follow? **Tamerlane**, given your religious perspective, I know you don't really feel up to issuing a fatwa but what do you think?Truth Seeker, thanks for the several clarifications.
Truth Seeker, many of the Muslims I know resent American interventionist policies in general, regardless of the side taken in the conflict. They view America as attempting to “police the world” and see this as part of an American strategy aimed towards international subjugation. One of Usama bin Laden’s primary motivating factors is U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, although the U.S. is in fact an ally of Saudi Arabia and will turn a blind eye to anything which goes on there. Sadly, U.S. foreign policy regarding Saudi Arabia is thus criticised by Americans and Arabs alike. Of course, this doesn’t answer the question of why Muslims feel hated by the U.S., but in my personal experience, I have only seen that attitude among Muslims living in Western countries who have been traumatised by hate crimes in their community. Most of the Arab Muslims I have met actually like American people, and their problem is only with American foreign policy. The fact that many Europeans voice the same concerns leads me to believe that it is in some ways an inevitable consequence of America’s status as cultural and political superpower.
Well all due respect to my old buddy ibn Taymiyyah, but I disagree with his reasoning 
. The problem of who is or isn’t a member of a particular faith is kind of thorny. It’s a common practice among many followers of Judeo-Christian religions to disavow the religiosity of supposed co-religionists over matters of politics or doctrinal interpretations. I remember once idly watching The 700 Club ( don’t ask why - I have no idea ) and hearing Pat Robertson break down the percentages of “Christians” vs. “Catholics” in Latin America. The implication was pretty clear .
This tactic has been used in Islam countless times throughout history to justify warfare against other “Muslims”. The Taliban make that claim against members of the Northern Alliance, for example ( probably vice versa, too ).
But in my modern, secular view, I think I would define a member of a given religion anyone that, a.) self-identifies as such, and b.) accepts the core tenets of that religion. In this case, I think it is pretty likely that ObL accepts the proposition that there is no God but God and Muhammed is his ( final ) Prophet. Similarly I think he accepts the principles of prayer, fasting, giving of alms, pilgrimage, the Koran as the final word of God, etc. - All the central beliefs of Islam. So I consider him a Muslim. Not to mention that he is steeped in the culture ( or A culture ) of Islam.
Where he falls down is in violating ( IMO ) certain Islamic laws such as the slaughtering of innocents, twisting theology to suit his own agenda ( as the article I cited explains in part ). Now by my definition that doesn’t make him a “not-a-Muslim”, it makes him a “bad Muslim”. To take a much more banal example, I don’t consider a Muslim who impibes alcohol ( or even eats pork ) to have abrogated their status as a Muslim. Violation of Shari’a here and there may make you a less pious person, but if you still have a belief in God from a fundamentally Islamic standpoint, I think that is sufficient to carry the label - Really it’s that God thing that’s the key .
Now a real theologist could no doubt rip my argument to shreds and I am certain that many would disagree with my definition. Taqi al-Din ibn Tamiyyah certainly would ( though his opposite number in the Il-Khanate may have had a different take ). This just my own, personal, view. Osama bin Laden is horrifically bad example of a Muslim, but I still consider him a Muslim. Similarly Fred Phelps is a blight on the face of Christianity, but I would still call him a Christian. Barely.
- Tamerlane
Mohammed Atta’s written last instructions to his co-conspirators urged them, among other things, to shave off their body hair. And two Muslim men who were aboard planes that were grounded Sept. 11 aroused suspicion because they were apprehended carrying boxcutters and a large amount of cash. After Atta’s letter was revealed, the men seemed even more suspicious bevcause they had recently shaved their body hair before their capture.
So my question is a simple one. What’s the deal with shaving off body hair? And does it have to be shaving? could they have waxed?
oblongo, I didn’t find the answer to your question, but I did find this, the complete translation of those instructions. Interesting reading.
I seem to remember a news story about this, and IIRC it was mentioned that this was not a usual Islamic practice. I can’t seem to get Google to locate to the story, though.
Tamerlane,
Thanks very much for your analysis. I tend to agree though I'm very curious to hear the thoughts of some practicing Muslims, especially one with a scholarly backgound. (Hint, hint, **Muslim Guy**!)
Whether other Muslims agree with you or with Taqi al-Din Ibn Taymiyyah may provide the answer to a question I've had for several weeks now. With a few notable exceptions, most Muslims seem to be frozen like deer in the headlights of OBL's apostasy. One of the more common reactions is, "OBL couldn't have done this because he's a good Muslim. It must have been someone else." Though many Muslim leaders have condemned the attacks, I don't know of any Muslim opinion leader who has directly challenged -- or even discussed -- OBL's Islamic credentials. The best material I have found, the exegesis you posted, was written by someone (appearently a non-Muslim) at the University of Tennessee. Why is this?
I'm wondering if all this denial and ambivalence is simply a massive exercise in cognitive dissonance. As I understand it, OBL's public pronouncements and actions put Muslims in a dilemma. If OBL is a Muslim, albeit a misguided one, fellow Muslims -- though they condemn his actions -- should stand in solidarity against non-Muslims who seek to attack him. If OBL has strayed from the path of Islam and is now apostate, good Muslims are required to actively oppose him, even to the point of killing him. Moreover, as per Taqi al-Din Ibn Taymiyyah, any Muslims who voluntarily ally themselves with OBL are also apostate and should also be put to death.
Neither of these are attractive options for the Muslim world. So I pose the question to the many practicing Muslims who have contributed to this thread, Do you agree with Taqi al-Din Ibn Taymiyyah or Tamerlane Ibn Cecil ;) In other words, is OBL apostate or is he a Muslim? Discuss.
Extra Credit: In light of your answer, what duties does Islam impose on Muslims toward OBL and his followers? Is this an individual or collective duty?
Well, no, apostacy isn’t punishable by death in Islam – it depends on whom you’re talking to and the context. It is a popular sentiment among Islamic conservatives, but it isn’t the only way of looking at things, and there’s nothing in the Qur’an to sanction it – in fact the Qur’an seems to imply that it’s possible to leave Islam, come back, and leave again:
Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject Faith, and go on increasing in Unbelief-- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way. (4:137)
Hard to do that if one is dead!
The apostacy laws can be understood in context of treason against the state – that is, in an Islamic state (should one exist, which one does not), the citizens of said state have pledged allegiance to the state, and thus “apostacizing” would not be merely deciding not to believe in Islam anymore (since there is no compulsion in religion according to the Qur’an, how can there be compulsion to remain in one?) – the apostate would have denounced his or her allegiance to the state and either actively waged war against it or assisted those who are waging war against it. The punishment for such treason would, then, be execution.
That secular Islam site has a pretty thinly-veiled anti-Islam slant, so take that as you will. I am of the view that a “theological” Islamic state would have to be secular for all intents and purposes, so I think the notion of “secularizing Islam” by essentially ending it is misguided at best. I differ with the sentiment that Islam sanctions that which the website suggests it does.
I would have to agree with Tamerlane on this. I think that most mainstream Muslims are wary of calling anyone a non-Muslim – perhaps because it’s the first thing that the extremists do. The prophet was reported to have said that if a Muslim calls another Muslim an unbeliever, then one of them surely is. So I’m not sure that I can make that judgement of Bin Laden.
In light of that? Muslims are to, as a community, oppose injustice wherever it occurs, whether perpetrated by Muslims or non-Muslims. The prophet said that if we can’t stop injustice with our hands, we must stop it with our speech, and if we can’t do that, we must hate it with all our hearts (I paraphrase). So I would say it’s incumbent upon individual Muslims to at least speak up, to let people know that what Bin Laden is doing is wrong and unIslamic, and to support, in whatever way their consciences dictate, any means to bring him to justice.
Hope that wasn’t too light on content 
– I’m running a little short on time…
Here’s are two questions that’s always puzzled me about the Muslim world.
Number one, why are the women covered?
I realize not all nations or sects of Islam require their women to be covered. I also know there are degrees, from the Taliban to only covering the hair, probably more (or less). But those that do, why?
Are women a source of temptation and must be covered so the men don’t lust after them? If that’s the case, how come the men aren’t covered, lest the women lust?
The second question, somewhat related. In some parts, if the men die they get 70+ virgins in heaven. Who are these virgins? Are they women created ex nihilo by Allah in heaven? Or are some earthly women’s heavenly reward to share a guy with 70 other women for eternity?
These are serious questions, and I apologize if I sound flippant or ignorant. Or that I’m stereotyping Muslims. I’ve just always wanted to know about these things from a Muslim perspective.
Roald Dahl advocated the murder of Salman Rushdie.
Was this out of Muslim pride, or literary jealousy?
Are you serious? All I heard is that he called him a “dangerous opportunist” and a “twit”.
And where does Muslim pride come into it? Roald Dahl wasn’t Muslim.
Nor did he cater to anywhere near the same kind of literary audience as Salman Rushdie.
Roald Dahl, Cat Stevens…whatever. Speaking of which, I am advocating the murder of Jimmy Buffet officially, right now. Out of Muslim jealousy…
What do you mean by covered? Clothes? Some form of hijab?
In any case the easy answer is Abrahamic religious modesty. This has been addressed earlier. Why do western women have to cover their breasts? Some parts of the world no one has a particular problem with bare torsos.
Why not? Why is the head covering such an obsession? In some traditional parts of Eastern Europe women cover their hair too.
As to the specifics, I am sure we can point to various historical ones such as
(a) Head and more covering pre-Islamic tradition in the region, with some sources I have read attributing the extremes like the burqah to elite Persian traditions.
(b) Some degree of practicality in the climate. As I had a friend tell me after living a year in the desert fringe of North Africa (a woman), “Now I know why they cover their hair, the goddamned dust is impossible to get out otherwise.”
© A certain degree of macho culture – again pre-Islamic as much as Islamic.
(d) Honest feeling about what the holy text says.
Men are supposed to cover up. The Quran is pretty clear about that. What is done is a sociological question.
This is gonna sound a bit odd, but here it goes:
I am writing a short story about a Muslim kid on the week of Septemeber the Eleventh. My questions:
The only time that Muslims would pray during the school day (while they’re at school, work) would be when the sun comes up and at noon, right? this is assuming that the day is from 8-3 o’clock.
Would a Muslim pray for the lives of the people in New York on Sept. 11, assuming that they weren’t the ones responsible for the attacks?
Would a Muslim pray to Allah that everyone around him would realize that he wasn’t responsible for the attacks? Would he also ask Allah why they hated him?
Would a Muslim use a watch alarm to let him know when to pray if a mosque isn’t within earshot?(assuming that mosques have bells to tell Muslims that it’s time to pray)
Would a Muslim have a friend tell him that the sun is coming up in the morning if the Muslim is busy enough not to notice?
Just a few questions. I was going to bump the old Ask The Muslim Guy thread back alive, but saw this one.
HubZilla
Take a look at the first “Ask the Muslim Guy” thread. (I think there’s a link to it on the first page of this thread.) I think I recall Muslim Guy discussing those issues there.
Tahireh
Thanks for the feedback! Do you think most Muslims share your perspective on this?