The last post reminds me of a question I asked a few pages back but probably got lost in the shuffle.
Since you learned Arabic as a foreign language: Is Koranic Arabic extremely difficult to read and much harder to understand than spoken Arabic? This was something that an Arabic teacher I knew claimed, going as far as discouraging students from learning Arabic if they only wanted to read the Koran.
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But muslim guy, shouldn’t the onus be on these mufti to make themselves heard? Surely there are avenues available to make a bigger noise than they have. I have read about these fatwas, but there doesn’t seem to be much outrage against what the minority are doing in the name of Islam.
You can bet that if a congress of mufti were to hold a press conference and explain why the extremests are wrong, and denounce their actions, the press would cover it. Loudly, I’d bet.
Peace,
mangeorge
Well, mangeorge, I think the press would cover it NOW in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy, but before then, I don’t think they’d cover it as well. I think that Muslim Guy made an excellent point about the media and it’s selective treatment of specific topics. I never had much respect for the media before, particularly when I see how it portrays blacks and other minorities so that the stereotypes associated with blacks as being deviant criminals . . . are perpetuated, but now looking at how they were showing some Arabs celebrating the attacks, rather than the range of horrified reactions that Muslims worldwide actually had, my respect for them is non-existent. The sad thing is that folks generally buy into what they see on tv or in print as being true, rather than the sensationalized distortions of reality that they are. Correct me if I’m wrong, Muslim Guy.
I’m really not so sure about that, celestina. I’ll do a little research, gather some cites, and get back to you.
I [do] read mostly ‘liberal’ weeky newspapers.
Peace,
mangeorge
MG,
(There are two ways to know that someone really doesn’t like you: He’s really rude to you; or he’s really polite … boy, MG are you polite! Well, I still think well of you.)
Seriously, one cite is “The Encyclopedia of the Orient” (available online) in which it is stated that “many mosques of the first centuries were originally churches.” The most notable sites are the ones that you have mentioned and we can disagree about the intent. Since all of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles are holy to Islam, I guess that leaves all Jewish and Christian sites open to be taken over as holy to Islam as well. And others are pagans who should be destroyed.
Bluntly, I am disturbed by your construct of better relations by ignoring the past that you don’t like. What if I was a Christian and presented Christianity to your Muslim brethern as a religion of all peace, love, and tolerance. “Do unto others …” etc. And when your brethern mentioned the Crusades, I responded with a response of that I want to focus on the good stuff, don’t be so negative. Yeah, that’d go over real well.
Better relations result from honest understanding of the history of the relationship.
I applaud you for your building upon some wonderful Islamic traditions. But you insult the memory of my ancestors when you ignore their oppression under Islamic rule and only acknowledge the tolerant rulers. When you ignore the Pact of Umar and the treatment of Dhimmis. When you perpetuate a myth that Arabs treated Jews kindly before the Brits screwed things up, while reality was that in 19th century Palestine Jews had to walk to the left of Muslims (identified with Satan). James Finn, British consul in the 1850 described how “Arab merchants would dump their unsold wares on their Jewish neighbors and bill them, safe in the knowledge that he Jews so feared them that they would not dare return the item or deny their purchase.” In the early 20th century Albert Memmi put it as follows, “Roughly speaking and in the best of cases, the Jew is protected like a dog which is part of a man’s property, but if he raises his head or acts like a man, then he must be beaten so that he will always remember his status.”
The Western world needs to understand the Alohades as one side of the same coin that also includes the remarkably open and tolerant regiemes of Muslim rule in Spain in the 10th to 12th centuries. THEN we can hope to begin to understand the different faces of Islam that we see today: the gentle, peace loving side that you and many others espouse; and the harsh world that some want to recreate by any means possible.
Once again, I want to emphasize that Islam is not alone in having a dark side. I’d be just as ornery to someone who portrayed the history of the Jews to be without fault, or Christians … (don’t know enough about the others though).
And also again thanks for lots of information and your work to reduce the ignorance of us teeming millions.
The Quran is written in classical Arabic. Very few people actually speak classical Arabic since there are many regional dialects and the accent varies greatly from place to place. Those who wish to learn Arabic for practical purposes will usually learn to speak and understand Arabic as it is spoken in a specific region. The study of classical Arabic places a greater emphasis on grammar. Arabic being one of the most grammatically complex languages in the world, this takes a long time and is extremely difficult. So it isn’t really a good way to learn Arabic if all you want to do is travel around the middle east. I wouldn’t say that Quranic Arabic is harder than spoken Arabic, just that you would probably want to concentrate on one or the other at the beginning. If you study classical Arabic, as I did, you will probably not have any degree of oral fluency even after several years, but if you study conversational Arabic, you may not have enough grasp of the grammar to understand the nuances in the Quran. After all, the Quran is considered one of the finest works of Arabic literature. Someone who takes “English as a foreign language” classes probably wouldn’t be able to fully understand and appreciate Shakespeare.**
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celestina,
This from USA today:
"09/13/2001 - Updated 01:03 AM ET
Palestinian leaders try to repair image
By Matthew Kalman, USA TODAY
JERUSALEM — Palestinian leaders moved Wednesday to repair the political damage done by news footage of Palestinians celebrating in the streets after hearing of Tuesday’s terror strikes in the USA. Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian Authority’s president, was filmed donating blood for the victims. Arab League spokeswoman Hanan Ashrawi hastily organized a candlelight vigil at the U.S. Consulate in East Jerusalem nearly 24 hours after hundreds of Israelis flocked to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in a spontaneous outpouring of grief. Palestinian Cabinet Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman used tougher measures to avoid an international backlash in response to apparent Palestinian jubilation. Abdel Rahman called international news agencies and said the safety of their staff could not be guaranteed unless they withdrew the embarrassing footage of Palestinian police firing joyfully in the air."
I had heard of the footage while at work on Tuesday. Never saw it reported on again. And I looked. It was censored out, withdrawn. CNN had emphasis on Arab expressions of regret and condolances and NO mention of Palestinian celebrations. It was as if it did not occur. This USA today report was the most I could find after Tuesday. No mention in the newspapers I read or on any of the extensive coverage that I watched. Maybe I read different rags.
DSeid, thank you for this information. 
I’m still VERY skeptical of what I see and read in the media, but it’s nice to know that steps have been taken to present a little more balanced view of Muslim reactions to the tragedy.
I have no idea why that doubleposted (other than punishment for playing when I should have been at work). Sorry for the stutter.
I agree that the images were correctly suppressed and censored. The unwarranted generalized backlash against Arab Americans and other Muslims is bad enough without fanning the flames. And I agree that skepticism is well warranted when dealing with any information source, especially the mass media. I think that we disagree about the kinds of bias that the mass media are generally guilty of, though!
I agree. The Wahabbi sect seems to be a real problem. I have long speculated that the Sauidis were paying a form of tribute to Osama bin Laden to keep his nose out of their affairs. Now I wonder if there isn’t an even more cozy relationship. The statistic concerning 80% of the Imams in the United States being Wahabbi is quite alarming too. Any comments on this Muslim Guy? I’m very concerned that the Bush administration’s close ties with big oil blind them to this virulent threat.
I will ask a fairly touchy question. Have I missed any mention about large gatherings of people in the Arab nations to mourn those who were lost in the World Trade Center attack? What is it that the large population centers in the Middle East cannot demonstrate their horror at such an atrocity by gathering en mass in public? Where are the candlelight vigils, the mass prayers for these innocent souls? I can only be glad that you are considering a peace movement, but an unmistakable sign of sympathy from the Arab nations would go a long way right now.
As to why the American media does not give much airtime to Mullas with fatwas against terrorism, you need only to look at how The Star and other tabloids sell so well to understand.
No question about international relations. Just one about dietary laws.
My church and the local mosque want to have a kids’ day party. I want to serve inoffensive snacks. My experience with dietary laws is with feeding Orthodox Jews, not Muslims. I have been told that feeding Muslims is, um, (how can I put this?), less of a production than feeding my Jewish friends: no prayers over the cooking needed, no special pots, if pork was once cooked in a pan the pan isn’t defiled anymore once you give it a good scrubbing, things like that. Is this true? Anything special I should avoid? Anything special I should do?
zenster,
Yes, you’ve missed it. There were gatherings of Muslims in various countries expressing condolances to America. Well reported on too. Fairly brave of these individuals, since some of their countrymen are quite militantly supportive of the attacks. And especially notable since many of them still think of American policies as being less than noble.
A great site, http://www.earthlink.net/~hankinhsd/thankyou.htm
(which is currently unavailable due to excess traffic)
collected photos of the responses across the world. Muslims, Jews, etc … Makes one realize how little we Americans personally respond to OTHERS tragedies.
dropzone, just avoid anything that comes from a pig and don’t let food touch anything that comes from a pig, don’t use alcohol in anything, and if you use meat, buy it from a halaal butcher (the animal has to be slaughtered in a specific way - I think this only applies to large animals, though). If you can’t find a halaal butcher, use kosher meat. I think that’s about it.
Thanks, penny. We have halal butchers around here, but I figured kosher hot dogs would do the trick.
MG,
BTW, Centers for Jewish learning in Bagdahd were no where near Mecca and Medinah? Huh?!
Ancient Bagdahd is located in present-day Iraq. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. If they were any closer they’d had to have had block parties!
You have an accurate grasp of the situation. Please go ahead as planned. There is no restriction in Islamic law concerning meat & milk together. Just omit the pork. Some Muslims think meat has to come from a halal butcher and others don’t. If you keep it vegetarian there is never any need to worry.
dropzone:
When feeding Jews, there’s no need to pray while cooking either. The only thing I pray when I cook is I pray my wife won’t leave me after she tastes my cooking, and that’s a traditionm I started myself, not from any Biblical or Talmudic source.
Wife lived with an Orthodox woman and SHE had to pray while cooking. In Hebrew. Her roommate taught her the prayers. They didn’t have the double kitchen that some rich Orthodox Jews have (I’m jealous based on just the SIZE you’d need to have two fridges and two stoves and two sets of everything else!), but she couldn’t eat dairy then, anyway, so they made do using a lot of aluminum foil. In my TOTALLY ignorant days I asked her if she could cook something in the kosher manner for an Orthodox coworker’s birthday, but got a long lecture on just how much trouble it was so I bought a box of Dunkin Donuts instead.
Thank you DSeid, I have not seen mention of this and I found it disturbing. Again, the American media is great at fanning flames and not so hot on the followup. The link is still not working, do you have any others?
I’m still wondering what MG thinks of the spread of Wahabbism and its links to Saudi Arabia.
Zenster: Just poking my head in for a second ( just wasted my time in GD - Now I gotta eat 
) - But I think that Muslim Guy replied to a question on Wahhabism in the U.S. a couple/few pages back. You’ll have to dig it up yourself, though . I believe his general response was something along the lines that yes, he did see a lot of Wahhabi clerics in the U.S. and he had some problems with that - But you should dig up his specific comments for details.
Personally I can’t bring myself to quite believe that 80% figure myself, considering the number of non-Saudi Muslims in this country and the extremely low number of Wahhabi’s worldwide - 10-20 million? fewer? Whatever it is, it’s a drop in the bucket full of 1.2 billion Muslims ( or whatever that current number really is ).
But I admit, I dunno for sure.