Tahireh, well spoken, dear! I REALLY appreciate your responses. You sound like a really cool person, and I’d love to sit and talk with you IRL. I’m going to think about what you’ve said and hold off on any more questions for now. Maybe I should be quiet now. I think I’ve scared Muslim Guy away. [giggle] He’s been really quiet lately. 
Tahireh, well spoken, dear! I REALLY appreciate your responses. You sound like a really cool person, and I’d love to sit and talk with you IRL. I’m going to think about what you’ve said and hold off on any more questions for now. Maybe I should be quiet now. I think I’ve scared Muslim Guy away. [giggle] He’s been really quiet lately.
tahirah, thank you for the woman’s view. my church is having a bit of a “covering” thing going on as well. some are very strict and others aren’t. from what i read it is married woman who should cover their heads. a paul thing as you mentioned also a carry over from the jewish traditions the early church had. our dust up is over whether it pertains to married women only or all women, all the time or just in church, what do you do if your are widowed or divorced. it is amazing to me on how men are so very involved in this. i believe it should be a woman’s decision, it is HER head.
my questions would be:
what are the factors that a muslim woman would use to make a hijab decision? does it have to be a 40x40 square? would a hat do? or the ever popular hair doilly? would where you live give you a different view, ie fargo, nd? is there an age or marital status to wearing hijab?
Hi, rocking chair,
If I’m understanding you correctly, the main factors, or decision makers, would be her understanding of the Qur’an and Sunnah (tradition of the Prophet and his Companions). The Qur’an has this to say about it (this is the part that pertains to women):
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, [lengthy list of others].” (Surah 24:31)
Assuming that they aren’t coerced into it, I would say that for the most part, women who are convinced by their understanding of the above (and sometimes, one or two other verses) that the hijab is a commandment of God will wear it and then come up with further justifications to support it afterwards, and most of those who aren’t convinced that it is, will not. A minority of the second camp may wear it anyway, for their own reasons, which may be varied (rebelling against Western culture, their personal means of protecting themselves from the advances of men, expectations of their families, the list is probably endless!).
LOL no, that was just an example based on your standard scarf that you can buy almost anywhere. There are a variety of hijabs and styles available. More on this below…
The traditional view of hijab has allowed for some variation in the type of headgear used, but it’s mainly been restricted to a scarf, probably because the Qur’anic verse used to support it commands women to “draw their veils over their bosoms.” The assumption and understanding has been that if one takes the position that the head should be covered, then, in keeping with the verse, the head covering should be drawn over the chest. This would seem to disqualify a hat or doily or a scarf so small that it doesn’t allow for this adjustment.
That said, often when I see the requirements for a hijab, it doesn’t specify what you ought to cover your head with, while it does specify that only the face and hands should be left visible. So… if one can find a hat or other article of clothing that covers the hair and neck, I don’t think it would be a problem. The question is what would fulfill those requirements if not a scarf? (here’s a hint: a well-adjusted hooded sweater can do the trick ;-))
I hope that answers the question of whether location matters, as well. There are Muslims who would argue that it’s not acceptable to “Westernize” the methods used to cover oneself, but I am of the view that Islam is a universal religion, not an Arab one, and as such is adaptable by culture. I think (hope?) that mainstream Muslims are at least mostly supportive of this.
It’s to be worn by women from the age of puberty (often given as a set age for equality, like 9 or 12) until menopause, although if a post-menopausal woman wants to continue to wear it she certainly can. Whether you’re married or not doesn’t make a difference.
Hope this helps!
P.S. Muslim Guy, come back! I don’t know much about anything else! LOL
Dear Muslim Guy,
This has been asked before and I’m hoping bring it up a 3rd time will do it!
What’s the position of the Qu’arn on homosexuality? I’ve heard that Muslims take the story of Sodom and Gomorraha very seriously and claim that homosexuality was THE reason for Allah destroying both cities.
Btw, do keep up the good work, this thread has opened my eyes on Islam more than once!
Most Muslim girls - especially those in non-Muslim countries - prefer the headscarf to any other means of covering their heads, because for them it is important to be immediately recognised as Muslim. In fact, this is the reason many Muslim girls who did not practice hijab in their homelands, begin to do so when they move to England or America - often against the wishes of their parents. They wish to associate themselves with the Muslim community, in much the same way that American university freshmen flock to join societies based on whatever ethnic minority they happen to be. I think that this sort of identification with a group gives people strength and a feeling of belonging in a strange environment.
Reservations about the degree of clothing are not misplaced. A headscarf is not offensive to me - many non-Muslim women, in Eastern Europe for example, wear headscarves as well. But in Saudi Arabia, women are not permitted to drive because it is assumed that their faces are veiled. Women who are veiled so fully are incapable of performing certain tasks and are, I’m sure, hindered in daily life by being unable to see clearly. I’m sorry, but I find this unjust and oppressive.
The “boys will be boys” mentality is not Islamic in that it is not a part of Islam. But it is unfortunately very common in Islamic countries, as it is around the world. It is important to remember that the very men who seem the most fanatic in these countries are the most guilty of ogling women in the streets. In Pakistan there are many stories of mullahs (religious leaders) engaging in very un-Islamic activities outside the country. One person I know was sitting behind a well-known mullah on a 'plane to England. The mullah was seated next to a white girl and repeatedly put his hand on her thigh while talking to her. Imran Khan - the famous Pakistani cricketer - ran in the elections from an Islamic platform. A couple of months later he met his future wife Jemima in a London nightclub. A married man who used to work for my father always sported a long beard and listened to religious songs on the radio. He later eloped with a married Christian woman. It turned out that they had been having an affair for years.
It is a well-known fact that Khadija was a successful businesswoman and that the Prophet M. encouraged the equality between men and women. However, I believe that people allow their cultural bias to influence their interpretation of religion. My aunt got married to someone who was working for her, and he insisted that she quit her job. Now he runs the company that she used to run when they met. Of course, this is not something specific to Islam. It is something that happens the world over.
I was listening to talk radio driving home yesterday. This was a new show to me, but the host and caller “seemed” serious. But then Phil Hendry used to be on that station, so one never knows…
Anyway, the caller was Lebanese, so the host eventually asked him why the Muslims hate the United States so much.
This guy had an answer I’d not heard before, and I don’t have anything in my noggin o’ knowledge to either confirm or deny the statement. Anyone out there know anything about it?
Oh yeah, what he said was that the US sending men to the moon in 1969 really infuriated the Muslims as they believe that Mohammed now resides on the Moon and that by sending US citizens there, we had defiled an extremely Holy place. He pointed out that their Mosques have crescent moon shapes on them as an example of their reverence toward the moon.
Forgive me if the above is really stupid, but it was just too bizarre an idea to not ask about.
And speaking of Bizarre, if you’ve not already read about ‘Bert and Osamma’ then check out this link:
WashU77, Muslims don’t believe that Mohammed lives on the moon, they believe that he split the moon in half. Supposedly all Prophets need to work a miracle to prove themselves to the unbelievers, and this was one of his. Here’s a link to some information about this: http://www.angelfire.com/ab/Cem/moon.html
You’ll notice a reference to Americans having “stepped” on the moon. I guess some Muslims might think that this in some way defiles the miracle of the “moon division”, though I don’t see why…
Thanks for the information concerning the moon…
Freyr: Well until Muslim Guy makes it back in ( I think he mentioned earlier that he has firewall difficulties ), here’s a link that concisely covers some ground on this topic, including links to gay and lesbian Islamic organizations:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm
I think it is entirely fair to say that Islam, like most branches of Judeo-Christian faith generally, is largely intolerant of homosexuality. In fact it is probably rather more intolerant than most ( again, generally ). Although as the link above points out, their are differences of opinion on just how to deal with or punish such “transgressions”. And as some other posters have pointed out ( in this thread or GQ? I think GQ ), homosexuality is not necessarily uncommon in the Muslim world.
- Tamerlane
Oh and I should sneak in a quick word of praise for Tahireh and her efforts . Informed first person perspectives are always the most insightful.
- Tamerlane
thank you tahireh, that did help. i spoke to an iranian coworker once about this hijab/chador subject. she startled us when she said it snowed in iran. i guess all those sand pictures you forget there are mountains. i asked:" how on earth do you walk around in a chador in snow?" she said to me, now you understand, eh? after a few minutes i said… “ah, i get it.” the real question is “why on earth would a woman need to go outside her house?”
My Quran translation (Ahmed Ali) has a not-so-literalist view on moon splitting. The author’s footnote explains the Arabic, and then takes a tangent:
"The hour has come and split is the moon. But if they see a sign they turn away, and say: “This is the same old lie continuing.” 54:1
with the footnote:
Note on v.1 Shaqqa includes ‘opposition’ in its basic meanings, which is also implied by ‘split’ in English. The moon was the emblem of the Quraish. Raghib, however, says in his Mufridat that the flag of the Arabs consisted of the moon, even as the sun was the emblem of neighboring Iran. The Quraish being the dominant tribe of Arabia, it was their emblem that represented the Arabs as a whole. After the advent of Islam there was a split among the Quraish, some accepting Islam, others remaining pagan and opposed to it. Shaqq al-qamar, therefore, stands, in the metaphor of the Quran, for this split in the ranks of the Quraish. Otherwise, the meaning of Surah 105, The Quraish, would not be brought out effectively, exhorting the Quraish to become united in the worship of one God. For the use of shaqqa in the sense of opposition see 4:35; 4:115 38:2; 59:4.
Throughout the ages, the crescent has remained the quintessential symbol of Islam, and continued to be the emblem of the Mamluks and Ottomans, and adopted by most Muslim countries as an emblem with or without a star. It was, however, replaced with teh militant sword by the Wahabi House of Saud in the country of the origin of Islam itself, Arabia, when they set themselves up ‘kings’ after the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, and the liquidation of the Caliphate. The Saud also changed the name of the country to Saudi Arabia, thus changing the complexion of Islam.
That symbolic moon-splitting bit, very interesting in its own right, has me wondering. What were the “pagan” religions extant among Arab populations before the advent of Islam?
DSeid: The pagan component of pre-Islamic Arabia are surprisingly familiar. Islam adopted as much from them probably, as it did from Judeo-Christianity ( but of course Judaism and Christianity also borrowed from pagan sources - no structured religion sprang forth from a tabula rasa ).
The Semitic pagan religions were all somewhat related. Allah was the paramount deity ( the Woten/Zeus/Ra if you will ), worshipped throughout the Arabian penninsula. To the Babylonians he was Il, to the Canaanites and Israelites he wasEl, to the South Arabians he was Ilah, to the nomadic Bedouins he was al-Ilah. Muhammed transformed him into not just the paramount God, but the ONLY God, the God of the Christians and Jews, indivisible and all-powerful. But as you can see, he started from a point where Allah was already very significant ( note how much easier this makes conversion ).
In the immediate pre-Islamic period, the next most popular deities, at least in the Hijaz, were Allah’s three daughters - al-'Uzzah( power ), al-Lat( the goddess ), and Manah( fate ).
But there were literally hundreds of gods, many of them specific to particular towns or tribes. “Household gods” of that sort proliferated rapidly, many of them, perhaps, transmogrified ancestors that became protector spirits. The Ka’bah alone housed 367. The Ka’bah, by the way, was the supreme pagan sanctuary or shrine in pre-Islamic Arabia - A status that Muhammed preserved in Islam. Again we see this accomodation to pre-Islamic ideals that made Islam seem not at all foreign to the Arabs.
- Tamerlane
DSeid: The pagan component of pre-Islamic Arabia are surprisingly familiar. Islam adopted as much from them probably, as it did from Judeo-Christianity ( but of course Judaism and Christianity also borrowed from pagan sources - no structured religion sprang forth from a tabula rasa ).
The Semitic pagan religions were all somewhat related. Allah was the paramount deity ( the Woten/Zeus/Ra if you will ), worshipped throughout the Arabian penninsula. To the Babylonians he was Il, to the Canaanites and Israelites he wasEl, to the South Arabians he was Ilah, to the nomadic Bedouins he was al-Ilah. Muhammed transformed him into not just the paramount God, but the ONLY God, the God of the Christians and Jews, indivisible and all-powerful. But as you can see, he started from a point where Allah was already very significant ( note how much easier this makes conversion ).
In the immediate pre-Islamic period, the next most popular deities, at least in the Hijaz, were Allah’s three daughters - al-'Uzzah( power ), al-Lat( the goddess ), and Manah( fate ).
But there were literally hundreds of gods, many of them specific to particular towns or tribes. “Household gods” of that sort proliferated rapidly, many of them, perhaps, transmogrified ancestors that became protector spirits. The Ka’bah alone housed 367. The Ka’bah, by the way, was the supreme pagan sanctuary or shrine in pre-Islamic Arabia - A status that Muhammed preserved in Islam. Again we see this accomodation to pre-Islamic ideals that made Islam seem not at all foreign to the Arabs.
- Tamerlane
Let’s continue this in Ask the Muslim Guy, Part Deux, because this thread is a bit long.
Lockdown.