Ask the Muslim Guy

Okay, I’m approaching this from an admittedly Western, womanist perspective. To sort of piggyback on Dignan’s question, would you shed some light on Islam and its notion of modesty. Does a woman have to wear a hijab and hide her body in baggy clothing and not speak to or touch males she’s not related or married to, and do males have to not speak to or touch women they are not related or married to in order to be good Muslims–notice I did not say to be considered good Muslims by other Muslims, but rather to just be for themselves good Muslims–or is this more of a cultural thing? How far does this notion of modesty go? For example, if a Muslim male sees a woman who’s fallen and injured herself, is he prohibited from rendering her assistance because she’s not related or married to him, or is it okay for him to help her up? Is it just limited to Wahhabism for the genders to pray separately, the men at the front of the mosque and the women at the back, the male imams at the front of the mosque and the females imams in the front row of the mosque, or is this something that Islam requires of its practicioners. If these things relate to Islam OR are products of the cultures who practice it, how can these things promote peace, tolerance, and love? I mean, how can the separation of the genders so that men and women do not speak to each other, communicate their perspectives, and foster understanding about where they are coming from help a culture progress? How can there be understanding and respect between the genders if the genders do not interact and demystify their perspectives?

I guess I’ve said all this to say that while I respect other folks’ right to worship and live as they see fit, I find it really disturbing and highly suspect that a lot of times with Muslims we only hear things from men, and a lot of times it is the men who speak for the women. If Islam is peaceful and tolerant, then women should be considered good and respected whether or not they choose to wear the hijab and baggy clothing and whether or not they speak to or touch (e.g. hug, shake hands with) men they are not related to. The same applies to men. This has sort of been bandied about in other threads, but I’m not getting a clear sense of what’s going on, and that just may be the point. These practices of modesty associated with Muslims aren’t meant to be understood by Westerners. They are just things that Muslims do, and they don’t think critically about them because they are what Islam requires of them.

Okay, I’ll shut up now. Thank you again for this wonderful thread, Muslim Guy and Tamerlane. :slight_smile:

Celestina, sadly much of your above post applies to Judaism as well. This is despite Torah portions that show women to be the equal of men (My Favorite-Jacob wants the birthright and blessinf that will go to his elder brother, Esau. Jacob gets it, but only because his mother tells him what to do.). I’ve seen evidence that the same is true of Islam. Mohammed was very proud of his daughter Fatima. She was a great teacher and leader. But, sexism contimues in spite of this.

Muslim Guy-I have an add-on to Celestina’s questions: Under what circumstances is it permissible to touch an orthodox Muslim woman? From what you’ve said previously, I assume that I could go so far as mouth-to-mouth if CPR was necessary to save her life. But what about catching a woman who is about to slip on a patch of ice?

As long as the topic is in play…

From what I’ve read, one of the big attractions in the “Paradise” awaiting good Muslim men after death is a bevy of virgins to attend to the needs of the man.

Yet here on the mortal coil, women are treated like dirt. News reports have said that one of the hijackers, Mr Atta, basically hated women. I don’t know how typical that is, maybe he was just an ass, no ethicity or religion has an exclusive on that :slight_smile:

Still it seems odd, this duality of thought. In life, objects unworthy of contempt, in the afterlife, a great reward.

There is some of this attitude in Christianity too. Not as pervasive, true, but it does exist.
Peace,
mangeorge

I’ve been printing off this thread, rereading it and handing it around. It’s clarifying so many “what about?” questions that get muddled–or bypassed–in books, etc. It helps so much to just be able to ask a real person.

I’m not saying this well. But I’m so grateful–and impressed–with the patience, erudition and generosity of the Muslim Guy, Tamerlane et. al. When you know how much you DON’T know, it’s incredibly reassuring to have patient folks willing to answer even basic, confused questions.

Nothing more to add than that. But thanks again, guys. For the first time, some of the “book learnin’” stuff is starting to make human-perspective sense. I wish this dialogue had started much sooner, for a lot of reasons. But at least it’s happening now.

Veb

I’m no Muslim Guy, but I also a Muslim, a convert and a female, and I hope I can touch on a few of the concerns stated recently about the role of women in Islam.

Regarding the hijab, or head covering for women, the first thing to be aware of is that the Qur’an enjoins modesty on both believing women and men (this would mean baggy or loose/unrevealing clothing for both), with an admittedly higher degree asked of women. The basis for this is the belief that while women and men are equal in the sight of God, equality does not mean sameness. Here in North America, I don’t mind that I’m not allowed to go topless while men are, because I’m built differently than they are, and they generally view that part of me differently than I view that part of them. Some differ, but the majority seem to have accepted that as a standard they’re willing to live by. Islam would seem to demand a higher standard, but the parallel is still there.

However, the degree to which women should cover, and how they should do so, is something that is flexible, and has been interpreted differently depending on who you talk to.

http://www.maryams.net/articles_veil02.shtml

gives one understanding of the Qur’anic injunction for women to cover their heads, and comes to the conclusion that what constitutes modesty is more up to the individual woman to decide. Traditionally things have not been that flexible, and the more conservative the interpretation, the more of a woman’s body she is required to cover.

What I think is important is that first of all, the Prophet never coerced women to cover themselves. At best we can come up with examples where he suggested that a woman lower her hem, or said that it was not seemly to dress a certain way, but we have no examples of women being punished or mistreated due to what they wore (or didn’t wear).
Second, whatever cover she she chooses to wear, her clothing should not prevent her from going about her daily business, and it is not meant to degrade, demoralize, or minimize her contribution to society. Women in the time of the Prophet worked, learned, and functioned in society alongside the men, even fought in battle. So when I see so-called “Muslim” countries preventing women from fulfilling any of these roles, it is to me a clear violation of the spirit of a truly Islamic society.

That touches on the topic of the interaction of women and men. As I understand it, the interaction of women and men is not forbidden unless one takes an extremely conservative view of things, which, as I mentioned above, doesn’t seem to be the way things were at the advent of Islam and thus don’t really have a reason for being this way now. What many Muslims might disagree with, however, is Muslim men and women socially gathering, i.e. “hanging out”. In other words, no problem having a mixed workplace, but don’t go out with mixed groups for an after-work drink :). (I kid; of course Muslims aren’t supposed to drink alcohol) I think that’s a more traditional view, though, and may be challenged.

As for men and women touching, it is reported that the Prophet didn’t shake women’s hands and disliked the practice; thus, it’s frowned upon. How individual Muslims choose to deal with this, though, is ultimately up to their own consciences, I feel. Personally I shake people’s hands, male or female, and I don’t believe it’s immodest to do so. Other Muslims’ mileage may vary, obviously. But I would say that a man who let a woman fall into danger because he was afraid of touching her is committing a graver sin than he imagines touching her might be.

What else was asked…? Okay, about prayers… I think that MG touched on this, recalling an example where a woman led prayers for mixed believers even when there was an able adult man present. Why a male imam leads the prayer ahead of the rows while a female imam leads the prayer from the front row, I don’t know; I haven’t seen any material about this. Perhaps MG knows better.
The practice of separating women and men in prayer with a barrier like a curtain or something is, I personally feel, something that was introduced into Islam and doesn’t really belong there. The prophet is reported to have said that it was better if women prayed in the rows behind men, BUT this is not (not not not!!!) due to any sort of inferiority, but rather an attempt to minimize the number of distractions suffered by believers, considering some of the positions assumed in prayer. Yes, we should all be focussed enough to not look at the rear end of the person in front of us, but personally? I don’t mind praying behind a man if it means I’m sure he won’t be looking at my derriere. And – if one believes in the precedent that a woman can lead a mixed-gender prayer, obviously you’re going to have a woman who is not praying from a back row in that case.

In Mecca during Hajj, if I recall correctly, women and men pray side by side. Just for perspective.

About the houris. Man, there was a great website I had a link to and wanted to share, regarding the supposed gender of the so-called houris (the Qur’an apparently uses a term that could apply equally to companions of either gender), but the site seems to have been discontinued. Instead I offer this:

http://www.geocities.com/muthram/houri.html

In short, I think that anyone who believes he’s getting a load of virgins to fulfill his every whim in Paradise is taking an overly simplistic and literal view of the Qur’an at the very least. A terrorist who kills (thus breaking many, many Qur’anic injunctions) in the hopes of getting those virgins is just plain delusional.

That women are viewed in such a mediocre light by extremists is criminal. I mean, for goodness’ sake, in the times before the Prophet female babies used to be buried alive, and in order to demonstrate the vileness of that act, the Qur’an says that on the Day of Judgement they will ask for what crime they were killed! How all of these things, including the way the Prophet treated women and encouraged the men to treat women, could possibly give way to the abhorrent treatment and exclusion of women from the public stage today ought to give you an idea of how far from true Islam extremists have drifted.

I, as a Muslim woman, am sometimes offended by how many men presume to speak for us, but a lot of this is because Muslim women have been denied decent educations over the centuries, and several mosques make their female participants feel dreadfully unwelcome (another tragedy). We see more and more Muslim female scholars coming on the scene, though, whether feminist or conservative, and I applaud them all, if only because it means we’re finally learning.

Tahireh–and others–I read an interview with a Muslim woman who said she finds FREEDOM in veiling, etc. Very loosely paraphrasing, she said that she pitied Western women for being whipsawed by fashions in appearance as opposed to…well, that’s where I got lost.

But it rang like a bell. I wouldn’t want to go about swaddled but if the REAL trade off was refocusing on character, service to family and community, etc. as opposed to appearance–well, it’s just very different. And intriguing. Of course there are endless complexities involved, understood. I’ve also read that Muslim (Arabic?) women–sometimes?–have deep, far-reaching if subtle influence. Maybe it’s more cultural/political interpretations of religion.

Surely modesty/conservatism/worth is balanced somehow. Sorry, this is a hoplessly messy, confused non-question. I hope you can sort out the gist enough to offer some insight.

Thanks again.

Veb

[celestina clapping for Tahireh]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your response! While I certainly do appreciate all the hard work that Muslim Guy, Tamerlane, and others have been doing, it is SO NICE to hear from a Muslim woman. I’d still like to hear Muslim Guy’s perspective on these things too, but your voice and your perspective, Tahireh, is most welcome. Welcome to the boards! :slight_smile:

I feel like a parrot for saying it; but I just discovered this thread (I’m a GD guy…) and thank you so much to MG and the rest.

Very informative reading.

[celestina clapping for Tahireh]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your response! While I certainly do appreciate all the hard work that Muslim Guy, Tamerlane, and others have been doing, it is SO NICE to hear from a Muslim woman. I’d still like to hear Muslim Guy’s perspective on these things too, but your voice and your perspective, Tahireh, is most welcome. Welcome to the boards! :slight_smile:

Thanks, Tahireh, for your input.
And welcome to the SDMB. :slight_smile: Please, stick around. Maybe, with the help of people like you and the others on this board, the various OT believers can come to co-exist. Pie-in-the-sky, I know.
I have been told that the reason women were required to cover is that the sight of a woman might (would?) drive a man to ‘sin’.
Peace, etc.
mangeorge

Well, yes, many women do feel more liberated than shackled by wearing hijab. I was just thinking about this earlier today: a lot of women wear loose, baggy clothes when they’re feeling unattrative or overweight. We cover our hair when we’re having a bad hair day. On days like that, on “fat” days, on “ugly” days, our dress represents our feelings and our mood – I know I’ve spent days feeling grouchy because my hair didn’t do what I wanted it to, and slouched around in sweats because once I couldn’t bother with my hair, I didn’t want to bother with anything else. Not to speak for all women everywhere, or even to portray that as somehow “inferior,” but women who wear the hijab do have less to worry about on that front. When you dress loosely every day, the “fat” days don’t stand out as much, because your style of dress doesn’t change to accomodate it. When you have a bad hair day – who cares, who’ll know? It’s a bit easier for the size 16 girl to feel good about herself in an environment where the size 6 girls dress just as loosely as she does.

It’s just a matter of perspective, I think. A lot of advocates of hijab make the error of making it seem like it’s “all or nothing” – either you’re dressing like a harlot, painting your face to attract the advances of the savage beast, or you dress piously in fabric draped from your head to your toes. Fine if you like that kind of black/white contrast, but I think the benefits I listed above are some that are reasonable without being accusatory or extreme.

As for being respected for what’s between your ears, or what you do in your community, rather than how you look – well, any woman who’s had to remind a man that her eyes were in her head :wink: ought to understand, just a little bit, the appeal.

Yes, I’ve read this as well, and as far as I know it’s a Middle Eastern – perhaps Arabic, I’m not sure – phenomenon.

Hmmm. I’m not sure what you mean by this…
I do believe in moderation in all things, and believe that Islam encourages this, is referred to as “the middle way.” That a woman should be viewed as any less because she doesn’t choose to cover her hair (or conversely, because she chooses to cover her face!) is a sad thing. That there many other ways to be modest and dignified and devoted to Islam than to simply wear a head scarf – and that the piece of cloth alone does not a good Muslim make – seems to escape too many people.

By the way, thanks for the welcoming response! I’ve only been here as long as this thread’s been alive, but I wanted to help out where I could.

::laughs at self::
Not suprising; I’m not sure what I was asking!
You already answered a lot of it already, though.
I was just trying to muddle my way through veiling as a positive shelter (filter?) for women. Something that could possibly filter out unwanted emphasis on appearance without making women less than women.
Maybe as a tool women choose for themselves rather than an imposed, de-sexing or dehumanizing symbol?

Sorry, still trying to wrench my mind around.

Veb

Ah, okay, Veb – yes, many women who wear hijab view it as a means to desexualize them in the eyes of men without defeminizing them. I’d say it’s one of the more common arguments given for covering.

This article: A Chinese American Non Muslim Woman Experiments with Hijaab really lays it down, I think, and it’s by a non-Muslim woman on her experience wearing hijab.

here My Body is my Own Business! is another.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/hijab-lesson.html

Somoene… was it mangeorge…? suggested that a reason for wearing hijab was to avoid leading men into sin. I’d say that’s more a justification than a reason; the hijab may help protect against this, but the Qur’an instructs both believing men and believing women to “lower their gazes” – i.e. not to stare – and so whether a woman’s wearing hijab or a bikini, he still knows what to do. :slight_smile:
No, but really, to my understanding the Qur’anic reasoning is simply that it is modest for believing women to dress this way and be recognized as modest, believing women.

If we’ve established that no conscientious Muslim could be on Al Quaeda’s side on this; could they be on the west’s? Could a Muslim enlist in the US army and go to Afghanistan and hunt Bin Laden.

I have seen several proposals (some more intelligent than others) that we form some sort of a Arab-American battalion, or a mercenary force of Saudis or something and “let them handle it.” Leaving out some of the uglier aspects of this idea, my question is, from a strictly religious aspect, would this be OK?

If nothing else, I’ve got to believe that there would be great PR value if we could show “PFC Mustafa Muhammed Pyle, USMC, from Dearborn MI” or whoever heading off to the gulf to fight for his country. If nothing else it would shut up the rednecks. It seems to me statistically impossible, given the numbers of Arab-Americans in the US, that PFC Pyle doesn’t exist; the media is just not catching on.

Or is there something I’m missing?

First, let me say that I respect Islam as a liberating practice–the way that you and Muslim Guy have described it in this thread–and I respect folks’ right to believe what they want and to practice whatever religion in whatever manner they wish. I appreciate your answers to my questions, Tahireh, for they have cleared up some misconceptions I did have. Your name is beautiful, by the way. If you don’t mind my asking, what does “Tahireh” mean?

However, I have some further questions. In these questions, I am not trying to get you to change your mind about what you believe on the subject of dress and modesty. I’m just trying to gain a better understanding of what’s at the heart of all this. I also wonder, do Muslim women debate amongst themselves about the reasons they wear the hijab and baggy clothing? I guess what I’m asking is in your experience have you observed Muslim women get together and critique and question what the difference is between a cultural practice designed perhaps in part for living in sandy, dusty, arid, desert areas and in part as a historical means of protecting women from raiders from warring tribes who would kidnap and/or rape women as spoils of war, and religious edict, or do the women just accept notions of modesty and dress as part of what it means to be a Muslim? The notion of women praying behind men so that men won’t look at their derrieres is a good one, but it doesn’t account for the fact that the women can see the men’s derrieres, and that might be tempting to them. Do they question why the greater responsibility is placed on women to cover themselves from the gazes of men with the expectation that women do not have sexual thoughts about males, while the men have the ability to acknowledge the fact that they do have sexual thoughts about women and must be protected from the temptation by a woman who covers herself?
I understand your point about how wearing the hijab and wearing baggy clothing is and should be the Muslim woman’s choice, but in the reality of places like Saudi Arabia, where the modesty police harrass women for violations of the dress code and some Saudi Arabian men travel to neighboring countries where codes are less strict and drink alcohol, hire prostitutes, or engage in homosexual activity, it seems it is not their choice. While the notion of covering up so you won’t have to worry about a bad hair day or how much you weigh and instead focus on your character and have other men and women focus solely on your character does appear to be liberating and is certainly fascinating, I still have to question the thinking behind any woman having to cover up at all. I mean, why should covering up one’s body and one’s sexuality be liberating, especially when I’ve heard some men talk about how they wonder what kind of body women have underneath the baggy clothing they’re wearing. It sounds like it’s just hiding.

In the links of articles by the Chinese American non-Muslim who “hijabed” herself and the two Muslim women, they argue about how wearing the hijab and baggy clothing was empowering because it allowed them not to have to worry about conforming to artificial and unattainable standards of beauty propagated by the Western media. I understand in part that their discussion of being liberated from worrying about keeping up with the latest fashion trends to be thin, athletic, waifish, have short hair or long is done to help reach out to folks who have a Western perspective and to put notions/critiques of standards of beauty in terms that Westerners can understand, and they raise some excellent points about how the media and the fashion industry objectify and commodify women’s bodies and their sexuality, but it still sounds to me as if hiding one’s body will not eradicate the problem of the objectification of women. When Sultana Yusufali writes: "When I wear the hijab I feel safe from all of this. I can rest assured that no one is looking at me and making assumptions about my character from the length of my skirt. There is a barrier between me and those who would exploit me. . . . “After all, there is no way that you can be overweight and still be beautiful,” it still sounds as if she’s bought into the myth that being beautiful means being thin, and she’s hiding from all of that behind baggy clothing, rather than addressing the fact that THINKING that being thin is beautiful is the real problem. The article by the Chinese American non-Muslim woman was the most disturbing for me because she sounds like rather than dealing with the very real psychological issues she has with being molested and raped, she’s hiding behind the hijab. To my mind, it sounds like she will not find peace whether or not she’s covered until she can come to terms with the violation that she faced. Does this make sense?

Again, I’m approaching this from a Western and womanist bias, but it seems to me that being liberated is wearing whatever you want whenever you want and not having to worry about males disrespecting you, thinking you’re a harlot, or not judging you solely by the content of your character. It should not be dependent on what you wear or don’t wear. I can respect religious beliefs, even if I don’t understand them, and if women want to wear scarves–My roommate and I were talking about this, and we agree that some of those scarves Muslim women wear are absolutely beautiful works of art with all that lace and those intricate designs they have on them–and loose clothing, fine, but I still question
the thinking behind that.


Tahireh said:
“How all of these things, including the way the Prophet treated women and encouraged the men to treat women, could possibly give way to the abhorrent treatment and exclusion of women from the public stage today ought to give you an idea of how far from true Islam extremists have drifted.”


Well, I wonder how and why the practice of Islam has diverged so far from the intention of the equality of the sexes? I know that all religions change and diversify over time, but it seems that the way that some folks who practice Islam treat women–denying them education, excluding them from the public sphere, and not allowing them to voice their own perspectives and experiences is disturbing. It seems to me to evoke a strong fear and almost hatred of a woman and her body and her sexuality. Do you have any thoughts on why or what factors allowed this has happened and on what can be done to affect change?
Okay, sorry if this was rather lengthy.

celestina, I hope you won’t mind my contribution to this discussion. I completely agree with what you have said. Islamic practices vary from one culture to another. In Pakistan, for example, women are discouraged from entering mosques. When I went to university in the United States, the Muslim students used to gather every Friday at the mosque. After a few weeks it was noticed that the Pakistani girls were strangely absent. It turned out that they had assumed the invitation was just for the boys, although in fact all the Arab Muslim girls had been there every time. However, in Pakistan the practices of hijab (wearing a headscarf) and purdah (the stricter version which involves no contact with men) are very uncommon and widely ridiculed. The few women who do observe one of these practices try to defend themselves by saying things like, “You are a pretty girl, you should know how men stare and how immodest it is.” They realise that both men and women are commanded, in Islam, to “lower their gaze”, but that men will not do this in the presence of an attractive girl. Thus they look on the veil as a means of enforcing modesty. Never mind that when a man stares, he is the one being immodest, and not the object of his gaze.

Foreigners often complain about sexual harrassment here in Paris, in particular the laissez-faire attitude about it. Large groups of men “hang out” in the streets and train stations hassling girls. French girls learn to put up with this early on in life and thus it is not taken very seriously. I once heard an English girl complain that a man stuck his hand up her skirt and groped her. What hurt her most was the fact that her Parisian friends just laughed and told her that it “happens all the time”. I myself feel embarrassed and, you could say, immodest, when men stare at me in the streets, despite the fact that I never wear anything more revealing than a T-shirt. I have sometimes debated whether I should wear looser, baggier clothes and cover my head to discourage men from staring and making lewd remarks. But I know that this would be sacrificing my individuality and freedom. So I suffer and put up with it. But I know that other girls feel safe when they wear some form of the veil - men will not ogle them or grope them in the street, for the veil sends the message that they are modest Muslim girls who don’t want to go out for a drink with a random stranger. Well, neither do I, but on principle I will never succumb to this sort of mentality.

pennylane, of course I don’t mind your contributing to the discussion. I’m so envious of the fact that you’ve been able to travel to so many different places and to experience firsthand those cultures and share what you’ve learned with us. Thank you for your perspective. It was indeed enlightening.

I know what you mean about having to deal with the “male gaze” or being groped or fondled in public because unfortunately I’ve been there and done that too, and it was NOT fun. I didn’t ask for it. When I want to be fondled or groped, believe me I will let the fella know! I find it frustrating when both women and men just laugh off rude/immodest behavior on the part of men with the excuse that it’s “just men being men.” [VERY BIG SIGH] No, it’s not just men being men. It’s a real problem that needs to be addressed. Men should be just as accountable for their actions as women, and in a lot of ways, they’re not held accountable. I don’t care what society/country you live in, there are unfortunately these double standards where it’s the women who are blamed for being too pretty or too immodest, thereby tempting men to misbehave, and they are called sluts or whores if they deviate from ill-rationalized and arguably repressive notions of propriety. We see this in America, even, where for a long time–and arguably even now still–women who are victims of rape are thought to have encouraged the rape because of what they wore. The thinking was and is that they were asking for it because they were wearing a short skirt, or their t-shirts were too tight, or whatever. :rolleyes: Gosh, I sound like I’m male bashing, and I don’t intend that at all, nor am I blaming women who have been victimized so much that they don’t even realize that they are enabling and encouraging immodest behavior in men. All I’m saying is that if men are supposedly weaker in terms of controlling their passions/gazes/hands, then the greater onus of responsibility should be ON THEM not on women to learn that no matter what a woman is wearing, she deserves to be respected and to be judged on the content her character and not harrassed when she’s walking down the street or waiting on the bus or subway.

I’m obviously not Muslim or any other religion for that matter, but like you, I refuse to let rude folks dictate what I will or will not wear, and I hope that if I ever do have sons or daughters, I will have the strength to teach them well that I don’t care what gender they are, they are ultimately accountable for their actions and that rude/harrassing behavior against any gender is absolutely unnacceptable.

celestina, I appreciate your trying to understand the perspective of those who choose to wear hijab, and I don’t really know what I can add to the discussion (though I’m sure I’ll be long-winded about it anyway) :).

Do Muslim women get together and debate the issue of hijab? Oh, do they. There are so many different perspectives on the subject, and some jones for more strict veiling (there are sisters supportive of face veiling); some don’t feel it’s acceptable to wear things like sweats or jeans, taking a very 7th century Arab-centric view of what is proper Islamic wear; others just aren’t convinced that covering the hair is required (I’m one of these, and I posted a link earlier to an article by a Muslimah who provided reasons for coming to that conclusion). All would probably agree on modest (re: “loose”) clothing for both Muslim women and men, though.

It is a thorny and controversial subject, where we are all trying to figure out just what is modesty and what is 7th-century Arab culture, while not taking that to mean we should just throw the whole thing out. I honestly believe that a lot of the strong feelings come about due to how hijab tends to be forced on people in “Muslim” lands – and not only that, but also how women came to cover their hair in the Judeo-Christian history of America. I mean, why do we think that covering one’s hair makes a woman subservient? Could it be, possibly, because Paul said as much in the New Testament? These are all things we need to take into account when the issue of women covering arouses such strong feelings.

As I mentioned, we have no examples from the Prophet’s life where he came down hard on women who did or didn’t cover their heads or meet some standard (though he is reported to have commented on acceptable standards of modesty). Therefore, I don’t believe that the government should enforce strict standards of clothing regulation on its citizens.
THAT SAID, even in America there are clothing standards that are enforced upon people. “No shoes, no shirt, no service.” There are places where women can’t go topless. There are places where no one can go bottomless.
This society has standards of modesty as well!
Fortunately, in most of the above cases, the worst that will happen is that you’ll be sternly refused service until you return wearing something more appropriate. I feel that that response is more appropriate and Islamic, and I feel that the Prophet’s example – a man who never struck or used physical force against a woman – supports that.
Therefore, countries who abuse and browbeat women into toe-ing the party line go against that example (and Muhammed was the best of examples) and do Islam and Muslims a disservice.

Now how did that happen to the Islamic world? Rise of oppressive patriarchy, tyranny, dynasties rampant with nepotism, colonialism, lack of education, and the subsequent rebellion against all things appearing Western or secular – lots of things. “Oh, your women don’t have to cover their heads? OUR women will have to cover their faces! Ha! Take THAT!”

I really, truly believe that if one looks at the earliest years of Islam, one could not possibly jive that with the current treatment of women in some Middle-Eastern countries. Khadijah, Muhammed’s first wife, was a successful, self-employed businesswoman – older than him, the one who proposed to him, and was the first believer in Islam – and he worked for her! Aisha, his youngest wife, was one of the most prolific relators of stories about the Prophet, and one of the most highly respected authories on Islam. A woman publicly corrected Caliph Umar, the leader of a young Muslim community, using her knowledge of the Qur’an. The story Queen of Sheba is mentioned in the Qur’an – a strong female ruler of a land.

I again re-iterate that if a man ogles a woman, no matter what she is wearing, he cannot blame her for what she is wearing (or not wearing) as an “excuse”. He is in the wrong, and he alone is reponsible for his actions. That this behavior is excused in exchange for blaming women for men’s wrongdoings, in any land, is wrong. The “boys will be boys” mentality is not Islamic, in my view. Women should not be forced to wear hijab in order to shoulder the responsibility of keeping men in line. That’s not what it’s for at all, in my view. As I said, it’s not to prevent men from falling into sin. That ain’t our job! Not in that respect, anyway.

Same thing about prayer – I just stated my own views on the subject, and it’s absolutely true that a woman could look up during prayer and become aroused by the sight of a man prostrating before her. What is also true is that men are more visual creatures, while that doesn’t excuse or explain anything – as a matter of fact, as far as I know the Prophet didn’t give a reason for why women should pray in the back rows at all, so any explanation is merely speculation!
I guess the question we should all ask is why praying in the back rows is considered to be a bad thing, and why, if it’s supposed to be something that supports the inferiority of women, do women and men pray side by side during Hajj in Mecca?
I will say this much: I have seen many Muslim misogynists give “Islamic” reasons why they believed women to be inferior to men… but that they prayed in the back rows of the mosque has never been among those reasons.

I think that at least some of your reservations about the issue of covering are more about the degree of covering – though I could be reading you wrong! – and maybe I can offer an example that is more recognizable by “Western” standards. You mentioned that while women who wear hijab cover to hide their bodies from view of men who might stare at them, these men might be so bold as to spend time speculating about what is under those clothes. You’re right: they might. But just as they may look at a woman wearing a regular shirt and wonder what’s underneath it (see the popularity of the “wet t-shirt contest”) – this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t bother wearing shirts, since men are going to wonder what’s underneath them anyway!

I know that that might be an extreme example, but I do believe it’s just a matter of degree: replace “shirt” with “head cover” or “baggy clothing” and the analogy works. Just as you wouldn’t want to feel pressured to wear more in response to how men may view you, women who wear hijab don’t want to feel pressured to wear less.
In other words, I may not be responsible for what a man thinks of me, and frankly, what he thinks about my body is his own business – but I can choose to not give him permission to verify those thoughts, because my body is my own business.

Regarding the articles talking about not giving in to fashion’s dictates, or body size or body image issues – certainly there are women who cover who still have body image issues. I still see hijab (and more broadly, just dressing in looser, less exposing clothing) as a sort of equalizer. To be fair, that’s not the stated intent of hijab, just a side effect that may appeal to some women who wear it. Some women wear hijab as a political statement, also. The reasons for wearing it are probably as varied as the styles of wearing it.

Honestly, depending on whom you’re talking to, hijab is just not that big a deal. Many will wear a baggy shirt and a pair of blue jeans and a headscarf, or an ankle-length skirt (which were in style only a couple of years back) and blouse and headscarf. To be completely candid, it took me about four years to become comfortable with the idea of hijab and free my mind from the knee-jerk prejudice and assumptions that I associated with it. I still don’t wear hijab myself, though I do dress in pretty ordinary, unrevealing clothes (typical university student gear ;)), much as I did before I converted to Islam. I have never gotten catcalled, and can count the number of times I’ve been flirted with on one hand, with fingers left over. I do intend to someday wear the hijab, because it’s a standard of modesty I wish to aspire to. But wearing it won’t change the person that I am, and if it makes people feel that I’m hiding myself or subjugating myself, then they don’t understand me, and I’ll have to educate them, because the more women who are educated, intelligent, and outspoken about why they wear hijab, the less discomfort we’ll all feel about a 40x40 inch piece of cloth. :slight_smile:

Ahhhh and to answer your other question, celestina, “Tahireh” means “The pure one”. She was a Persian poetess, heroine and martyr of Baha’i Faith history (I, like Muslm Guy, have “been around” religiously, and I spent four years as a Baha’i), and I’ve always looked up to her as an example of a strong woman who was not afraid to stand up for – and die – for what she believed in.