Something else people might find of interest: Dominants have to be trained too. You can’t just hand someone a flogger (or any other toy) and say “have at it.” Some of the toys we use in scenes can cause lasting damage. A good dominant will learn how to use each toy that interests him/her before using it on a sub.
I’ve never participated in a play party. I’m not much of an exhibitionist. I may one day but not yet. My dominant and I have very strict rules when it comes to toys. No one but him uses any toys on me. He is the one who knows my body and how I react to things. He is the one who knows how much I can handle both physically and mentally. He doesn’t trust anyone else to know these things and to put as much emphasis on my well-being as he would.
Something else I just thought of: After-care. Sometimes after an intense session the sub can feel overwhelmed and exhausted. It is extremely important for the dominant to do what is needed to help the sub at these times. What is needed is different for everyone. In my case it takes a lot of cuddling, affection, and discussion of how I felt during the scene and afterwards.
Excellent advice. I learned quite nearly the hard way that I should practice my aim with a whip before using it on someone. Or use something shorter. Or both…that’s probably best.
I have to say that I have no vibe whatsoever that A Priori Tea has Robin’s best interests at heart…I believe she does 100%. That being said, whether this IS in his best interest is a separate issue, I think.
Did you realize you were into D/s before you were married or after? If before, was Dermott OK with you being involved with other men? If after, how did you negotiate your current situation? Is Dermott really 100% Ok with it?
Do people Robin works with or his family/friends every notice his injuries? How does he handle such inquiries?
Do you family and friends know about your arrangements? What do they think of it? What about Dermott’s and Robin’s loved ones?
Koeeoaddi, I simply can’t comment intelligently on your near-physical aversive reaction. I understand that you do not agree with the choices we make, and I appreciate you keeping your disagreement civil.
Addressing more generally the subject of whether it’s “in his best interest” is a little harder for me to do, calmly and clearly. I apologize in advance if this comes off as preachy, because I feel a bit preachy.
Robin and I are both sane, intelligent people. Yes, we both have some issues - so does everybody else. Yes, we choose to work out our issues in the way we feel is most productive - just like everybody else. Because I love him, I would not do something that I didn’t feel was in his best interest, particularly not in the guise of helping him or for no other reason than to get my rocks off, so to speak. Given that we are both sane, intelligent people, I think that we are both fully qualified to judge for ourselves what is and is not harmful, physically or psychologically. If he feels something is counterproductive or harmful for him, we don’t do it. If I feel something is counterproductive or harmful for me, we don’t do it. I would not presume to tell him that I know better than he does what is in his best interest - and, by that logic, I think it’s really incredibly presumptuous for people who don’t know him at all to question whether he has chosen in his own best interest. I can understand how that might be a concern if he had expressed distress about some aspect of the relationship, or seemed to be focussed on it as the sole means of working on the things he is unhappy with in himself. That has not, to the best of my knowledge, been the case - so it seems very illogical to assume that folks who aren’t even in the situation would have enough information to question the decisions of the folks “on the ground,” as it were.
Dermott and I were both aware that I was poly-wired and kink-wired well before we married. He’s been very supportive of me expressing myself and getting what I need; there have been rough patches (places where we both could have communicated better, or just didn’t think things through in advance), but overall the transition from mono-vanilla to poly-kinky has been much less painful than it could have been. He really is truly okay with it - we just had another conversation this afternoon, sparked in part by the things I’ve been thinking about while answering this thread. He wants me to be happy, and he feels like what he gets in exchange (me, happy, along with open-relationship privileges) is well worth it. He is just not territorial about me, which makes me very happy.
I don’t injure Robin enough to make him non-functional - generally it’s just bruises and welts, which are easily hidden. That’s mostly practical - the places where it is safe and pleasurable to be hit are the big muscle groups, which are all easily hidden under clothing. I am not aware of him having had inquiries about marks that may show - I’ll have to ask him.
My friends are aware of our arrangements, as are Robin’s and Dermott’s. None of our blood families are “in the loop,” so to speak, because we just don’t feel it necessary to bring them into our sex lives. I know all of our parents would be slightly to heart-attack-inducingly horrified (they are all fairly traditionally Christian, with accompanying moral sets). Our friends are quite accepting - people who are uncomfortable with who we are and how we live and love are just no fun to be around for any length of time, you know? Not all of them live the same or similar ways, by any stretch, but all of them are open enough to understand what we do and not feel the need to “correct” it. (please note that that’s not intended to be a swipe at anyone in this thread - it’s more a leftover amusement from attitudes I have encountered in real life.)
I just wanted to drop a line or two and give my two cent’s worth. First: To A Priori Tea and all the other folks in the BDSM world who have commented, thank you for your bravery and honesty. To those of you who have submitted questions, I appreciate your curiosity. This thread is both informative and enlightening.
A Priori Tea, you have done a marvelous job discussing this part of your life. I myself am a Domme, with a collared sub, and find your information and answers spot on and informative to me. You have put a voice to what I have found to be my truth.
While I did for a brief time experience a “switch” in a relationship with a former BF on this Board, my true nature is that of a sadist. I think the purpose there was for him to discover his Dom nature and for me to experience what it is like for a sub to submit. However, I am who I am, he is who he is and we learned from one another and have moved on.
However, as any Domme/Dom worth their salt will say, submission isn’t about the Domme enacting **her will ** on her sub. It is about finding what your sub wants and taking them to that place. Be it role play, total domination, orgasm control, sadism, humiliation, whatever. The submissive trusts their Dom/Domme to give them what they desire, in the form that is previously discussed between the two.
I would recommend Gloria Brahme’s book Different Loving for those interested in researching this lifestyle.
Somebody on here in a separate thread said CollarMe was not a reliable resource. Well, as with everything, there are plenty of articles and sites out there that are. Some people are fakes and phonies, but I have to give it to you on here speaking your truth and making yourselves vulnerable; this is one of the best places to get honest information.
I also have close friends who know about my lifestyle. My family does not, for pretty much the same reasons that A Priori Tea has stated.
Thank you for an amazing thread. I love this board!
I’m here! I didn’t want to jump into this thread to share my experience immediately without a specific invitation or question, and I’ve been busy with work since it started. But I’ve reported for duty and the probing questions can begin!
There are a couple of mentioned points, in on which I would like to chime.
I’m not actually sure I’m better at explaining it, but that’s okay because you’ve already done quite well!
Basically, my issue with the term “man” started when I realized some of the traits to which I supposed to be aspiring weren’t traits I cared about at all. Think of everything that can regularly be associated with the term “a real man” - I’m none of those things. I’m meek, graceful, vain, sensitive, and I love to shop. At the same time, I’m a little too straight for ‘queer’ to cut it as a descriptor, tho I use that as well. I first started identifying with ‘boy’ when I found myself more comfortable in juniors’ jeans and babydoll tees than in the baggy guy-clothes I’d always worn before college. I first started idolizing biologically-male ‘bois’ when I ran across art and subculture depicting males who were so androgynous as to be almost mistakable for females and felt a strong surge of identity with them. I feel like that’s always been my favorite gender and my beauty ideal.
This wasn’t my question, but I thought I’d mention that I’ve read Leopold von Sacher-Masoch. And this isn’t my best writeup, but I did a small review over here. In short - it was interesting for the sake of knowledge, but I thought the masochist in the story was too picky and flighty to identify with at all.
Hehe! This is awesome.
Actually, my name here is a play on the name A Priori Tea has given me - Puck, after the faerie in some European mythology and also A Midsummer Night’s Dream. There, at least, Puck is a loyal servant of Oberon, but has a tendency to either listen badly or to creatively interpret the commands he’s given, so as to end up with more unexpected and mirthful results. I won’t incriminate myself too much here, but I like to think that I’ve grown to fit into my name admirably.
As mentioned, tho - I don’t actually seek to anger her in any way, and if I do then it’s time for a Talk. I have overstepped my bounds for the sake of humor in the past, but A P Tea is both patient and a very quick teacher.
Ooo, yes! I had to stop reading that book because it was a bit too scholarly to process alongside my psych texts, but it’s definitely a very solid take on various kinks and parts of the lifestyle. I’d also recommend The New Topping/Bottoming Book[s] by Dossie Easton/Janet W. Hardy, and the classic Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns by Phillip Miller & Molly Devon.
Anyway, I’ll be glad to answer any specific questions about my take on our lifestyle and submission/masochism in general, tho actual answers may have to wait until after work tomorrow. I’m exhausted. :o
Before I reply to this, I want to clarify what I said…I made a typo, and my comment should have read:
(I bolded the words I left out.)
I absolutely get that you both think this is the best path for you, and I appreciate everything you have said about understanding that this lifestyle cannot be a replacement for therapy, etc. I accept that you are both intelligent, sane adults who have chosen this lifestyle because you believe it’s the best path to happiness for both of you. What I don’t agree with is that you are necessarily fully qualified to judge for yourselves what is and is not harmful, physically or psychologically. Please don’t take this personally or consider it presumptuous…I am not basing that on anything I know about the two of you, but rather what I know about the human race in general. I believe that at times we ALL delude ourselves as to what is and is not good for us. God knows, I have. So, I apologize if I came off like I doubted you guys were less capable of such decision-making as anyone else.
A while ago, there was some outrage on both this board and the Internet in general, about the socalled “Sicko Marriage contract” or "Contract of Wifely Expectations. It was drawn up by a guy, Travis Frey, and used by his wife as a weapon in their divorce. The discovery of the “contract” was one of the factors that led to Fey being sentenced to ten years in prison.
Some people on the SDMB (Damn! the Searchfunction is still down!)wondered if such a contract could be a regular part of a dom/sub relationship, or that maybe it was just a fantasy from a dom, Frey who unfortunately didn’t marry a sub. Others argued it wasn’t, mainly because the " contract" didn’t seem to deal with the needs of the wife.
Maastricht, I know you didn’t ask for my opinion but I would like to respond. This does not resemble any D/s contract I’ve seen. He does not address her needs and expectations, nor does he mention what he is willing to do for her. It’s not a matter of only what the dominant wants. The sub’s needs and wants must be taken into consideration as well as the level of experience of all parties involved. Contracts are personalized to that specific couple/group. Personally, I would never accept a contract like that.
I’ll second this (likewise, not as it relates to A Priori Tea or any other specific person, but as a general statement). Much as you can’t look at your own eyes for want of the proper perspective, nor can you confidently analyze your own psychology – self-delusion necessarily implies obliviousness, so how can you ever rule it out? I suggested in one of the other threads that those who were criticizing freakalette had an obligation to maintain a “healthy agnosticism” about her lifestyle, and I think the same can be said of judgments about our own psyches and motivations.
This is actually a hijack: I’m really not implying that I think the kinksters in this thread should pay special attention to the above advice. It’s just a pet topic of mine.
Anyway, this is the Thread Of The Year so far. The contributions (and civility) from all corners have blown me away.
Sorry to somewhat derail the thread, but I thought I was not going to open yet another one about the same topic. I originally posted what follows in the Pit, but it seems to me it rather belongs to MPSIMS, if I want serious responses. And finally I picked this thread because, despite being theorically about sadism, it’s actually more “generalist” than ** Freekalette **'s.
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A question I would want to ask, to you and to people who feel like you (on the “kneeling” issue or other similar stuff previously mentionned) :
I assume you knew before this thread that D/s, SM, etc… existed. If you’re that surprised…What exactly did you think these kinks were about? Did you think a submissive disliked feeling helpless, disliked humiliation, disliked being taken care of, disliked being used, disliked whatever else you have a problem with? Then, why on earth a person disliking all these things would want to be invoved in D/s at the first place?
**That’s a serious question, because at this point, I’m really wondering : What did you think people in D/s, SM, were doing, were feeling, were enjoying? **
Actually, I suspect I’ve an idea of what, maybe, people thought, but I’d rather read some genuine responses.
Since we aren’t anymore in the Pit, I’m going to ask the same question to people who weren’t upset or shocked, but simply genuinely surprised.
Aithele, thanks, I thought so. (and thanks to A Priori Tea for answering my first question).
What I learnt most from this thread is how much attention the dom and the sub both pay each other. The sub in doing stuff (I suppose a sub’s hands are never idle!) and a dom in controlling what he/she does, giving feedback, and both by thinking about each other, plannign interactions, and acting the part. It is a very* intense* relationship. I gotta say, that sounds kinda attractive.
Oh, Flying Spaghetti Monster on a stick. Maastricht, you don’t know it, but you’ve opened up the perfect opportunity for me to get up on my soapbox for a minute (or twenty) about news stories Just Like This.
Here’s the thing: I get really, really pissed at people like this. You know why? 'Cause they make us sane, responsible, upstanding freaks look bad. People see “Man Abuses Wife, Police Find Slave Contract,” and they immediately assume that folks who write slave contracts abuse their spouses. That’s just not true! It’s not causality - being kinky and wanting to have an unequal power relationship doesn’t make you crazy. Being crazy makes you do the things you want to do dangerously and poorly. So, while not all freaks are crazy people, some crazy people are freaks - which makes the non-crazy freaks look bad, because of the inherent desire to pigeonhole.
I mean, I understand how it happens - the news outlets get awesome ratings out of “SEX FREAK GOES ON KILLING SPREE,” where they probably wouldn’t over “Man Like Your Dad Kills Wife In Moment Of Passion.” And it’s just much easier for people to process the idea of someone engaging in a really, really aberrant behavior if they can point to other ways that they’re aberrant and say “That person is not like me, because they obviously are Different. So I don’t have to worry about people like me being bad people.” I don’t (much) blame regular folks for pigeonholing, and I don’t (much) blame the news outlets for seizing on the angle that will drastically improve their bottom line - both of those are just practical. I do want to strangle the shit out of people who use their kink as a reason or excuse for behaving in ways that have nothing to do with kink, because they can, in one fell swoop, negate years of hard work trying to show people that we are varied, by-and-large sane, multifaceted people, just like they are. Allowing oneself to be defined only by a sexual proclivity is disturbingly limiting, and the folks who use their sexual proclivities as an excuse for committing criminal, nonconsensual acts make me want to engage in some criminal, nonconsensual acts of my own. In, I must note, ways that have absolutely nothing to do with my sexual kinks.
To answer your actual question, Maastricht: no, I most certainly would not consider that a “valid” contract - it’s barely literate, it’s lifted from a number of internet sources with no consideration for self-contradiction or covering the necessary material in toto, and it leaves distressingly large holes in expectations that need to be addressed in writing, if you’re going to put your relationship in writing at all. Please note, though, that you’ve asked about my personal opinion - I think it looks (by itself) like a guy who wants his jollies without having any responsibility trying to give it the facade of authority. I am not the be-all end-all authority on what works and doesn’t as a contract, though. To me, it is his behavior that is more disturbing than the contract itself. Bad contracts can be worked around; inherent disrespect cannot.
I agree that pretty much everybody, in any lifestyle (mainstream or otherwise), should be self-aware enough both to analyze their choices objectively, and to acknowledge that they can never be completely objective or thorough in their analysis. That’s part of why the communities I have enjoyed the most encourage a support system - that’s people who will help you when you feel down, or celebrate with you when you feel up, or most importantly, ask if you’re okay or what the hell you think you’re getting into when you’ve got a problem. I think it’s very important to solicit the friendship of people who will be honest with you when they think you’re making unhealthy choices, specifically so that you will hear what you need to if and when you start sliding into what’s easy, instead of what’s best for you. That’s just as true for tops as bottoms, for dominants as submissives, and for vanillas as leatherfolk.
What I’m curious about, in light of this thread, is why the impression seems to be that there’s an assumption that we don’t do this. I can see that I may have given the impression that Robin and I work and play in a vacuum, but that’s just not the case. Like everybody else, we hang out with people, and have friends, and socialize within our peer group. We also listen to our friends if and when they express concern about our well-being or our behavior - very often, it ends up being simple misunderstanding, but listening and communicating is pretty much always worth the time and effort it takes. I will freely grant that we need this outside check sometimes to give us perspective on things we may be taking for granted - what I’m wondering is why that seems to be a point that needs to be made at this moment, particularly, when it doesn’t come up in threads on… for instance, driving.
(I acknowledge, VarlosZ, that it’s just a “pet topic” of yours, and not aimed at us specifically in your case. It does, however, seem to be something that’s getting particular attention in this topic (this thread and others), so I’m wondering what the logic behind that is.)
Priori Tea, I so enjoy reading your posts. You are able to articulate much of what I’m thinking in a more eloquent manner.
**
Maastricht**, there is a great deal of attention. A dominant needs to know the sub’s body and how that sub reacts. The sub needs to know the dominant in order to anticipate what is needed at that moment. The entire relationship can be intense but scening can be 100 times more intense. That is why after-care is so important. Not only does care need to be taken with the sub’s body but also his/her emotions.
VarlosZ, you asked how can self-delusion be ruled out. It can’t be. Those of us involved in BDSM could easily be deluding ourselves and never know it. But you can ask that question of anyone in any situation.
On preview, I see Priori Tea has addressed this and once again expressed what I was thinking better than I could. Support systems are very important in BDSM, in most walks of life in my opinion. These support systems are in place to not only help with psychological issues but also to ensure no one comes to any permanent, lasting damage.
