Nope haven’t started taking estrogen.
I’m glad you starte this thread…
Asmodean…
I’m still not clear on what you are trying to tell us. So a few questions please.
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You are “closet” cross dresser, which means that you do not go out in public wearing female clothes correct?
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Are your intimate physical relationships usually with men, women or both? What exactly is your sexual orientation?
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Is your cross dressing more for erotic stimulation, emotional relaxation or both?
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Do you long to be a woman or are you comfortable with also being a man? You may have answered this already but I’d like for you to clarify just a little more.
Maybe if you can clear up a couple of these questions then I can ask you a few more. I warn you they may get a little probing.
Needs2know
Commander Fortune
historically, research has been done on white males. the medical community considers you to be the sex you were labelled as at birth, so their studies tend to be on m2f. also the media thinks “men” in dresses is more outrageous than “women” in pants.
this was not directed at me, yet the label transgender is aptly used for me, so i will try to answer q’s here as well since every one of us is different in different ways. i’m not trying to steal this thread from asmodean, but rather to give a second viewpoint.
Needs2know
i don’t like labels. i have male genitals, but a female brain. i wear a range of clothing from male drag to female drag, but most of the time i mix it up.
i prefer women. whether that makes me heterosexual or homosexual seems to be impossible to say since i feel i am a woman but most of society insists i’m a man. [fwiw, i consider myself a lesbian.]
it is used as external feedback to confirm my inner identity. i have had precious little external confirmation of my internal identity. from the day the doc said, “it’s a boy”, through school, and every application that asks, “m or f?”
i don’t long to be a woman, i am a woman. i long for society to accept that to be true and treat me as a human being. ok, i’ll settle for treat me as a human being.
i accept that i have many masculine traits. these i cheifly attribute to be raised as/to be a boy.
so these q’s are clear now? [as mud i think. 
]
Thanks alot Dixie…although I’m not exactly sure if I understand your “tone”. Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in some of your replies? If so then let me assure you that my curiosity is genuine and is not accompanied by any form of moral judgement. I also do not think that the kind of information I am interested in will be coming from you.
Thanks anyway.
Needs2know
Well, not to turn this into a confession thread, but I’ve, uh, had what others consider a gender issue for a long time. And given the [anonamous?] quote above as our rules for definitions, perhaps I fall into that autogenphylia category.
I usually describe myself as asexual–meaning that I am sexless, not that I reproduce with myself, of course. I even made a shirt that declares as much, with the symbols for male and female joined together and a question mark thrown in for good measure.
I’ve never felt that I was bi, straight, or gay, though I suppose if we were drawing lines I would fall more on the straight-male side over anything else. I never had an interest in cross dressing. Never felt that I wanted to get a sex change operation, but remember that movie where the girl wished upon a star and became a boy(some stupid 80’s flick)? Well, I’d be the other way around, I think.
I think my disinterest in sexuality (not the act itself, though) may partly come from my dissatisfaction with the male body. Its kinda blocky, and generally not attractive at all. I suppose I would be a lesbian, but I don’t think that the sex act itself is the main concern to me.
Asmodean, I had the “post-nuclear” experience of being a male raised by my mother alone, so perhaps I got the feminine side of me from her and the masculine characteristics I have from my other interactions with society? I don’t think about it too much because I’m pretty introverted anyway, so these sorts of topics never really come up in conversation. Do you think that, had you been raised a girl, that you would have no gender issues? I sometimes wonder… how much of our gender is appropriate to the gender or appropriate to the society? Perhaps I would be more comfortable without a role to play at all. :shrug: Hard to say.
I don’t really cross dress that much, I would say the main reason I did it was a simple desire to crossdress. No real reason. I would crossdress when around others, but for now I don’t because I have no access to feminine clothing.
I don’t have any “real” physical attractions. On a scale of 1-10 they would be .5
I want to be a woman. I could not be comfortable as a man.
aynrandlover I would have had probably no gender issues if I had been raised as a girl. Most of mine come from the fact that I know I don’t act like other guys and my supression of feeling “girly” things.
need2know,
i don’t know what i said that you think is sarcasm. i answered the q’s as openly and honestly as i am able to. yes, those are my real answers.
i don’t know what my “tone” is. i hope that it does not put you off, i hope to help people understand where i am rather than alienate them.
i am a friendly person.
Sorry Dixie…I thought your answers a little “short” but perhaps that meant they were simply “to the point”. Carry on my friend. Oh well, you two are no help to me at all. I figured as much. Nothing ever comes easy for me. Guess I’ll just have to keep plugging along playing it by ear.
Perhaps I should explain a little…although I’m hesitant too out of respect for someone else’s privacy. You see a little over six months ago it was revealed to me that the man I have been seeing for the past year is a cross dresser. He and I had known each other years ago when I was in high school and he was 18. We were friends back then, party buddies. We used to ride around in his van and smoke pot. We never dated. We went our separate ways like a lot of old friends do. I hadn’t seen him in over 20 years. We went out, talked on the phone, and we’ve been having a relationship ever since.
I haven’t had a lot of men in my life. I was with my husband for 17 years before I left him at 35. Since then other than this man I’ve had two serious boyfriends. The last one had two children. He turned out to be an alcoholic (I knew about that.) and a crack addict. He ravaged my life, stole money from me, and put me into bankruptcy. I can honestly say that (I’ll call him Sam.) has turned out to be the most decent man I have ever been involved with. He treats me better than any of my previous relationships. We get along. We don’t always agree on every subject, but we don’t fight. He helps me out around my house. He is patient and good to my children. (No small feat.) And our physical relationship has been wonderful.
Right from the beginning he was honest with me about his cocaine addiction. Of course I was very hesitant to continue having anything to do with him once I’d heard. He wasn’t using at the time. And he’s had a relapse, that’s when I found out about the cross dressing. He cannot do one without the other. In the beginning I was careful about starting a physical relationship with him because of his confessed drug addiction. But he assured me that for the 20 some years that he had used drugs it had been a solitary persuit. Eventually I found out why. The circumstances were terrible. Definately not the way you should break it to your SO that you have an underwear fetish. But that is water under the bridge now and I decided that even though he hadn’t been honest with me initally I valued the relationship enough to see how things would go.
OK so here is the thing. He is a heterosexual cross dresser. He has no desire to “become” a woman. He doesn’t think he’s a woman. He believes that he is both. Actually he believes we are all half man and half woman. It makes a little sense to me now why he would be attracted to me in the first place. (Despite his infatuation with blondes!) I’m feminine but not prissy. My personality has some rather “masculine” qualities. He tells me that he loves my confident walk. I’ve always been a bit of a tomboy. Been mouthy, and not afraid of much of anything. Yet, he says that I am truely a “lady”, well mannered, and most times with typical old fashioned Southern manners. He can be really sweet and romatic. Sometimes to the point of mushy-ness. Sometimes embarassingly so, but it surely is nice to get flowers for no reason at all. We don’t have to constantly be doing something to be happy. Often on Friday or Saturday nights we drink a couple of beers, put on the stereo and dance in the kitchen. We are both good with our hands, he’s been teaching me how to make stained glass.
Anyway, I’m getting long here. It has not been easy working through this thing. So any additional insight I have been able to get would seem helpful. That’s why I’ve been interested about people with gender issues. (for lack of a better word)
Thanks
Needs2know
needs2know,
i understand somewhat how hard this is for you. my wonderful loving wife has had great difficulty with my gender. frankly, most people cannot deal with it, but you did not leave upon hearing of it as many women do. do you love the person, or the image of who you think/thought the person was?? if you love the inner soul there is hope for your relationship, but it will not be easy. nothing worthwhile ever is.
i may not be the person that can best help you. one resource i know of is CDSO [crossdressers’ significant others]. it is a listserv, and only permits the non-cding half relationships. http://www.geocities.com/triess_cdso/
the binding of drug use and cding does not sound like a healthy way to deal with gender. though i am not anti-drug, perhaps “sam” could use help with the drug use. tri-ess could recommend gender-friendly counsellors. http://pages.prodigy.com/kerricd/sigep.htm
tri-ess has chapters in many large american cities. perhaps sam would find them helpful. it is an organization for “heterosexual crossdressers”. so’s, wives, and girlfriends are also welcome, though few actually participate.
if you wish to talk about this further, you can email me. just click on the mail icon at the bottom of my post.
you sound like you want to make your relationship work, for that alone i’d like to help you if i’m able to. here’s a cyberhug for you. ((((( ))))) i feel for the pain each of you are going through.
Hey! Here’s a cool news story: Trans Thais to Get Special Passports
Uh, which pronouns would you people like me to use in reference to you? From what I can tell, dixie would be most comfortable with “she”, ARL might have some desire to be a she, but probably would be most comfortable with “he”, but I’m kinda torn on what asmodean would prefer. And how far do you people plan on going with it, i.e. are you going to go for the whole gender reassignment surgery?
Speaking of which, when was the surgery first done? And what do different religions make of the whole thing? Finally, would it sound intolerant or anything to admit that the whole idea of that sort of surgery kinda grosses me out a little? Like, I have no objection to others doing it, but something about it just doesn’t sit right when I think about it. 'Cause I’d hate to be intolerant.
“Speaking of which, when was the surgery first done?”
Little Miss Historian hops in! Lili Elbe (I forget her pre-surgery name), a rather successful Danish artist, had the first RECORDED male-to-female surgery, in the late 1920s. Undoubtedly, it had been going on for sometime before that. Sadly, it ended badly: Her fiance wanted to marry her and have children, so the doctor tried to transplant a womb into her, and she died of the resulting infection in, I think, 1930 or '31. Her memoirs were published in the early 1930s as “Man into Woman,” and a novel, “The Danish Girl,” was recently based on her.
When Christine Jorgensen died, her obits all called her “the first person to have a sex change.” Actually, she was the first person to have a sex change AND a press agent . . .
waterj
No surgery for me, thanks. I know that it wouldn’t be a complete transition and so I wouldn’t settle for anything less. But that’s me.
However, if you know any genies who, oh, happen to have a few extra wishes…
I imagine Judaism would say that this is taking circumcision a bit too far…
?
I just don’t get it.
First off, I don’t get the apparent alliance between TG individuals in with gay/lesbian social action groups. Are the injustices suffered by these groups so similar? Is it because others tend to lump gays, lesbians and TG individuals together? Or is gay/lesbian social culture (or “community”, if you will) somehow intertwined with the TG?
Second off: Asmodean, as you pointed out, there seems to me a broad spectrum of individuals represented by the term “transgendered”. Seems to me that one fella whose kink is to wear frilly underthings is coming from somewhere completely different than someone who genuinely feels that they are trapped in the opposite-gendered body or someone who has extra chromosomes. How are these people comfortable being lumped together under a single umbrella?
Third off (a rant directed to nobody in particular): SO WHAT? What business is it of mine, or anyone’s for that matter, what sexual practices you enjoy? Or for that matter how you present yourself to society? I mean, I really don’t care, and frankly am just not concerned which mishmash of gender/homo/hetero/auto sexuality you are inclined to. I wish MLK would have omitted “color of their skin” and just stuck to “content of their character”.
I do have concern, however, that discimination occurs to people of all flavors, including TG’s. There must be certain, um, logistical difficulties as well.
Which bathrooms to use?
Driver licenses/passports?
Forms (M/F)?
Clothes?
Doctors visits?
Asmodean, you claim to feel “girly” things. Is this society’s definition of “girly” things or something on a deeper level? What kind of things?
dixiechiq, when you were crossdressing in public, were there any logistical difficulties? Intolerence?
Best,
Dev
Yes Dev, they do get “lumped”. My SO who is heterosexual suffers from drug addiction, depression and suicidal tendencies simply because he enjoys “getting his kink on” with women’s undies. Not because it hurts anyone, it only hurts him because society would call him a freak. I can only imagine how much courage it would take for someone to present themselves to the world everyday dressed as the “opposite” sex. The truth is that homosexuality was dropped from the DSM back in the 70s as a mental disorder but transvestic fetishism and gender identity disorders were not. So there you have it, even the mental health community still recognizes gender issues as a disorder. Most of them are not trained to deal with gender issues. My SO went to a therapist years ago that simply told him to throw away all of his clothes and stop doing drugs. Gee thanks bud, I’ve tried that one already!
Without starting a debate on this issue I think it’s also interesting to know that current “hate crime” legislation would cover crimes against homosexuals but not the transgendered. How is it that as we try to protect vulnerable minorities from the violent evils of bigotry, we are neglecting to protect our most vulnerable of citizens, the transgendered?
Yeah, you’re absolutely right it’s no damned bodies business what consenting adults do in their bedroom. Yeah, it’s true, what difference does it make what clothes you wear? Maybe you don’t care but quite a large number of people out there do. My SO won’t go to thearpy because he doesn’t want his employer to find out why. He’s a construction worker for God’s sake! He’s a layout engineer, he builds bridges. Does a macho job and loves it. He can’t loose his livelyhood just because he’s got a thing for high heeled shoes! We won’t even talk about the relationships it’s ruined, or his “death wish”.
Look I was not completely ignorant of these issues but when I ran up against it close and personal all kinds of stupid things ran through my head. Is he gay? Does he want to be a woman? What other kinds of kinky stuff is he into? I can only imagine what someone with less knowledge and even less tolerance would have thought.
I suppose we tend to see things that involve our gender with our sexuality. They are related but every bit as tenuously so as our gender is related to our sex organs themselves. Sexuality and gender are really in our heads, not our penises and vaginas.
Needs2know
as for the gay/tg alliance, i think a core issue is what a man or woman is and what they are allowed by others to do based upon that is what they have in common. ie, those with penises may dress like this and act like this and date like this. not all gays are straight acting ro looking. some do express gender clues in contrast to their sex.
you hit upon the most basic problem tg’s have. the biggest uproar at places of employement when someone transitions is which bathroom.
documents in most states can be changed, often requiring a letter from a doctor. forms change at the same time.
personally i don’t like having to get a note from a doctor for permission to do anything. it was a doctor that declared “it’s a boy” without consulting me. and it is the psychology field that still says we are disordered. i may disordered, but it is not my gender that is so. every culture at present and in history has tg’s. many of them have made room for those that are differently gendered.
so which bathroom? depends where i am and how i’m dressed. a desicion i have to make each time. i wish to minimize danger to myself. police and the law can be as much a danger as intolerant drunks.
yes. derogatory comments, threats, no violence. many people ignore me. others actually engage me in conversation. some places are friendlier to me when presenting as female than when i present as male, and they do know it is the same person!
basically i enjoy inner peace when interacting socially as a woman. and that is the key to me. i don’t need genital surgery to prove to the world i’m female.
Pronouns… I would prefer she. I suppose it comes as a suprise to the regulars, but then again I was suprised I even had the bravery to admit it to myself. I am probably going to go through the whole SRS thing. First however other things await:)
Having the surgery done not feeling right would probably be because your not a transexual. I don’t see why it would feel right to you if you weren’t.
It is actually intertwined, you can be both gay and transgendered in fact that seems to happen about 50% of the time. However theres no real alliance, more often than not I’ve noticed transgendered is just sort of stuck on the end in cases where it is such with a little information on the subject.
As for the term itself, I didn’t make it up I just use it. It is however, pretty standard.
For girly things, I mean the instinctive ones. Ones that I have noticed and tried to supress feeling but failed. I don’t know what societies definition for them are, I have never gotten along with society enough to care.
I guess one of the things I don’t understand about this (and I am really hoping I am not being rude or insensitive) is which instinctive behaviors you mean. I’m a female, and I’m not even sure what I do that is both instinctive and female. I like cats, and maybe have the urge to gather things. I’ve read that females respond instinctively to cats because their features are similar in proportion to newborn infants.
From what little I know, people who are transgendered know they are the “other” gender (or perceived as other, or not the biologically apparent one, I’m getting tangled up in language here!) on a deep, deep level. But I don’t wear women’s clothing on a deep, deep level, I wear it because that’s what’s on the rack. Our society determines what is fashionable for women to wear.
This is my question – what if next year, Fashion Avenue declared that the “in” look for women was mens’ suits, no make up, and very short hair. I don’t mean womens’ pinstripe suits that are tailored to be curvey and cut a little lower, I mean literally, mens’ suits (and for some reason everyone actually listened to this fashion advice), would transgendered people be more interested in wearing mens’ clothing to identify with the other women wearing them, or would the preference still be for “feminine” women’s clothing? I realize this is an impossible example, because our ideas about mens’ suits and frilly dresses are defined when we are children and we can never really escape it, but given that, is the emphasis more on dressing like women, or wearing feminine clothing?
In other words, are there transgendered people who wear stuff that might actually be in my closet, like underwear with broken elastic and a frumpy sweater with pills on it and a really tacky but warm bathrobe? Oh, and I took off one earring to answer the phone this morning, and so I’ve been wearing only one earring all day. In my limited contact with cross dressers, it seems much more like dressing UP than just dressing like women. And I don’t mean to sound like the stereotype of a woman who doesn’t like cross dressers because they look better than she does – I look fine (I guess) when I dress up.