I often see people in a public place having a conversation in ASL (American Sign Language). Not knowing the language, I sometimes wonder what they are saying. I realize that they’re most likely having a mundane conversation but are they always? Do people using ASL assume that their conversation is private or do they assume that there are third parties present who might know ASL and “overhear” their conversation? Do people using ASL say things in public like “check out the redhead, I’d like to spend a week between her thighs” or “look at the fat guy, is that gross or what?” or “let’s take this rat poison back to the apartment so we can cut up that new heroin shipment” secure in the belief that others won’t know what they’re discussing.
I suspect that most people who use ASL are aware that it’s not a secret language. There are plenty of people out there who understand it, and it only takes one embarrassing moment for you to remember that for a long time.
I don’t know ASL, but I used to like to mess with people who spoke Chinese assuming I didn’t know it. For example, I’d be riding an elevator in a parking garage in Chinatown and a group of Chinese-Americans would be talking. I’d turn to my friend and say something mundane in Chinese, and they’d all go stone quiet. I don’t know enough Chinese to know what they were saying, and I’m not paranoid enough to think it was about me, but there were a lot of people who assumed the big white guy wouldn’t understand them. They probably didn’t make that mistake again, especially if they intended to say something rude.
As far as ASL is concerned, I had a friend who used to try to teach me. We’d be out at a club listening to music, and she’d try to lead me through rudimentary signs. People were always interrupting to chat with her in sign, seemingly just as an excuse to use it. If that happens frequently among ASL users, I suspect they never develop the feeling of privacy you’re asking about.
ASL is a language, just like a spoken language. No, it’s not a “secret” code.
Yes, ASL speakers (for lack of a better word) know that others know ASL. In a crowd you assume others know English (since that’s the language you posted in), right? You tailor your conversations accordingly, right?
Yes, ASL speakers talk about the exact same things as everyone else, including the redhead, the fat guy, and the new shipment. Thus, they tailor their conversations accordingly.
You should apply the same rules of etiquette as you do to other people speaking any language.
Including, but not limited to:
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Mind your own business. If you happen to overhear their conversation, well… so be it.
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Don’t stare.
Sure, some ASL speakers use it to communicate some ideas with each other which they would be embarrassed/arrested if someone “overheard” them. Don’t you? What do you do in those circumstances? Whisper, maybe?
Signers. As in, “Are you an ASL Signer?”
If you’re in an area where you “often see others using ASL”, then you can probably feel comfortable that they know that their conversation may be seen by others who also know/use ASL.
Signers have ways of “whispering”, too. Turning their backs to a crowd, signing closely, etc. So, if they’re discussing something private, chances are that you’ll not see it directly enough to be able to understand them.
From the point of view of someone who signs, we don’t use that word.
My wife and I sign and are Hearing. We have several Deaf friends (and Hard of Hearing, and some with cochlear implants) in the Deaf community of New York City. My wife is strong ASL, I can get by conversationally, however we can both legitimately say (in sign) “I sign”.
If someone who signs wants to ask someone else if they sign, the literal translation of the signs we use is: “You sign?” Note: no mention of ASL (or any of the other sign systems such as Signed English, Pidgin Sign, Total Communication, etc, etc, etc).
The proper way (around here) to indicate whether or not someone signs is with phrases such as: “They sign” “Does she sign?” “Yes, I sign” “He’s learning sign”
When the Deaf people I know talk (note my use of that word) about what someone else has “said” they use the sign for “said” or “talked”, as in “She said she liked him”, “What did they say?”, “He talked way too long!”. Never: “She signed that she liked him”, “What did they sign?”, “He signed way too long!” (Remember, these are interpretations of the actual signs used.)
Even among Hearing (referring to whether or not someone else signs), I’ve never heard the term “signer”.
So, you are the first person I have ever heard call me a “signer”. Maybe that’s in common use somewhere, but I’ve never come across it in my experiences.
GrizzRich, micco, and Monty, thanks for your information.
Jimbrowski, you on the other hand seem to be looking for offense where none was intended. I am fully aware ASL is a language not a secret code; I referred to ASL as the former and never mentioned the latter. And your comparison of English to ASL is specious in this context. I assume most of the people around me speak English because I live in an area where most people do speak English. In this same area, only a minority use ASL, so it would be foolish of anyone to assume the majority of people around them understand the language. As for what the acceptable etiquette is in that situation; I don’t know, I’ve never been someone who was engaged in a conversation in a language most people around me don’t know. I suppose the best way to find out would be to ask ASL users what they do in such a situation; oh wait, that’s what I just did.
Not deserving of a full question of its own :
Dialect and language , is there not an international sign language ? Why ASL ? Are the similarities with signing used elsewhere enough to make one understood or is it an entirely different system.
In my experience a lot of Hispanics assume that whites don’t know Spanish, which is pretty silly in Texas where that is the most common foreign language taught in schools (they do some basic vocabulary in 1st grade). I have quite a few Hispanic friends and quite frequently their bilingual friends or relatives would ask and talk about me in Spanish in a way that was obvious that they didn’t think I understood, and more than once I’ve heard an insult. It’s also really common for Hispanics to switch to Spanish in mixed company to talk about something private, like drugs or whether that white chick is easy or not. A lot of the time I missed out on hearing stuff I shouldn’t because one of the first things my friend would tell other Spanish speakers when I was introduced was that I understood some Spanish, to prevent possible embarassment, but a few times (with people he didn’t like) he would deliberately not let them in on it.
I imagine it’s fairly common for people who use a form of communication that is not understood by most people as a way of talking about things that they normally would keep private. Don’t think ASL would be that much different.
ASL, as you noted is American Sign Language. It is not international. Similarly, there are many regional signs and regional version signs. The sign for “shore” is different in California than in Maryland. Deaf communities tend(ed) to stay close knit, thereby generating specific signs to that community. As a result, there are probably 20 different signs for “hot dog”. (I know of three, and pulled the value of 20 OOMA.)
I actually know ASL and I have used it in public quite often. I am not deaf but I have friends who are, hence my learning the language. For the most part it is just conversation, not viewed as secret or what not because more people than you might realize, know the language.
That said my girlfriend and I have used it as a way to convey messages to each other that we thought no one would understand.
I was signing to her one time and a professor of ASL came up to me and said that he had been reading what we were saying to each other. He apologized to us and said he was just “intensly curious”.
I’m deaf & I use it in public a lot. Yes, we say things about people in the room; but since Im usually with a woman I won’t say something like ‘I sure would like a week betwixt her thighs’ about a women in the room.
As a guy with a woman, the only way to comment on women around us & to get away with looking at them purposely, is to say/sign crappy things about them, like say, ‘Look at the breasts on that woman, she looks like Barbie, Im surprise she doesn’t topple over!’ laughing.
One time a woman was signing all this crap about a guy she saw in the restaurant using tons of profanity to describe him but after 20 minutes, the guy came over & said he knew ASL. Boy, was that some scene.
Sheesh, Nemo, who exactly is looking for offense where none is intended? I assure you, in no vague terms, that I intended you no offense. I notice micco informing you ASL is not a “secret” was apparently no reason to take offense, but it was when I did it? Hmm… I also suspect you misunderstood my use of the word “others”. I said “others” know sign, which you mistook as “the majority of people”. No, of course the Deaf do not assume the majority of people will understand sign. However, they know that some people do. Those who sign generally know that there are other people (“others” in my words, “third parties” in yours), although not the majority, who will understand them in many situations. My comparison of ASL and English was therefore valid: when communicating in public using any language (ASL and English both being valid examples), you should usually consider that there might be someone nearby who also speaks that same language. As for the etiquette pointers, well… considering the title you chose for this thread I assumed you were asking for them.
Badtz Maru clearly described how even in situations where it would be prudent to assume others speak your language, some people get themselves in trouble by not doing so. Not surprising, this happens to Deaf people too, typically to those who (incorrectly) assume there’s nobody around whom can understand them. (Thanks for the example, Handy.)
Damhna, there are many different sign systems throughout the world. Many major languages (or groups of related languages) have a corresponding sign language. A related example: ASL (American Sign Language), Sign English, and BSL (British Sign Language). All are significantly different. A speaker of one may or may not be able to communicate effectively with a speaker of another, although most people who sign regularly can usually communicate (although perhaps not hold deep philosophical conversations) across these three examples. (Hearing analogy: in my drum corps one summer the kid from Tennessee and the kid from England who had the hardest time understanding each other’s spoken English due to accent and dialect.)
Spritle is quite correct. There are different “dialects” depending on geographic region, which school you went to, etc. Also, Deaf communities do tend to stay close knit, contributing to regional differences.
And most sincerely, I intend no offense to anyone with this post.
Damhna, as far as I know and can find out (asked around today), there is no universally accepted “International Sign Language”. Some people seem to be pushing ASL as the international standard, but that’s more of a theory than a reality right now.
There might not be any international sign language, why there isn’t even US ASL, but there are some international signs.
A lot of people gave great answers regarding sign language. I, for one, speak dirty to my wife in public using Spanish. I normally assume most other people don’t understand, since there aren’t really many hispanics in my area. The problem is, I can get too much into the habit, and really embarrass myself when we go to Mexicantown! (or visit my inlaws)
Since I found a thread with so many ASL experts lurking about, I’d like to ask a quick question regarding ASL etiquitte:
When addressing a deaf person who has a translator, do you always look directly at the deaf person while speaking? I am confused about this because even if she can read my lips, she still needs to be looking at her translator to understand me (apparently). So if I am looking at her, and she is not looking at me, is that okay?
Or, do I look right at the translator?
I have been working with a deaf woman (taking notes for her in class) and I have been trying to speak directly to her but I am not sure if this is right. Sometimes I try to situate myself between her and the translator so she can see both of us.
But I don’t want to be rude, like another girl in class who speaks directly to the translator and says “Tell her this…”
That’s rude, right?
Zipper, I don’t think there’s an etiquette issue there. Who the deaf person looks at is up to the deaf person, but usually the interpreter silently mouths the words when he signs, so the deaf person can have the benifit of looking at the facial expressions (which contain a large portion of the contect, including inflection) of the translator and catch the signs in peripheral vision.
You, on the other hand, should look at the person you’re conversing with, never at the interpreter. The deaf person will be looking at the interpreter who will be signing what you are saying.
It’s been few years since I’ve done any interpreting but thinking back, I would always stand left or right-rear-flank of the hearing person, that way the deaf person would still be giving the hearing person the courtesy of a face-to-face conversation.
Hijack here…
I’ve often heard a trivia question to the effect, “What is the second most common language in the USA?” The supposed “answer,” of course, is Sign Language.
Yeah right. [Rolling eyeballs here.] I’ve never believed it for a minute, but I’m willing to keep an open mind.
So, is it true? And what are the qualifications? (Like, if I know how to flip someone the bird am I counted among the signers?)
If it’s not true today, has it ever been true in recent memory? (The trivia question was really popular in the 70’s/80’s and may be out of date.)
Thanks one and all.
Back to “international sign”. It is true that sign language is inherently more international that voiced languages, because there is often some gestural relationship between a sign and the concept it represents. But pretty much every country or cultural group has its own sign system, most of which evolved out of vernacular home signs.
ASL is a combination of home sign and French Sign language. Back in the 1800s a group of parents tried to recruit some European sign teachers. The British sign system was proprietary (!), but they finally convinced Galludet to come over here. And so ASL and FSL are very similar, while British Sign Language is completely different. If you see “Four Weddings and a Funeral”, Hugh Grant’s brother is using British Sign Language…which uses very different sorts of gestures.
And imagining that hearing people cannot understand people who sign would be a huge mistake…especially since so many of the people who learn sign are involved in churches!