astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO!

[IzzyR]

@Rilchiam

Just out of curiosity, what was the “something” your family used to do, and what was the “significant detail”?

Nothing nearly as important as anything being discussed here. It had to do with how frequently we visited our grandparents for the weekend. I distinctly remember that one kid would stay for the weekend at my grandparents each weekend, with a rotation for whose turn it was (we had a lot of kids, so it wasn’t like you went every other week). My mother says that she would send a kid on occasion every so often but there was no system of turns and not nearly every week.

Obviously with things as significant as what people are discussing here the events would make a much bigger impression and be less likely to be casually forgotten. OTOH, I would think the traumatic nature of the events, and the emotional lens through which they are later viewed might make them more subject to distortion. My point is merely that memories are fragile, and the fact that someone views things one way in their mind and it seems very real in their memory does not mean that that is actually what happened, particularly when the issue is specific details (as opposed to the entire incident).

[calm_kiwi]

@Zabali_Clawbane

That’s if you get immediate counseling, and don’t curl up inside in misery, shame, and self blame. If you don’t get help, your self esteem stays low, and you put up with “shit” without giving it a second thought. Many women do just this if they have been date/acquaintance raped.

Calm Kiwi He picked me up, was basically grappling with me in order to grope me (I did resist, and take his hands off) and physically exhausted me. He ran me into the ground, so he could get sex. I don’t think you’ve ever experienced such an onslaught. “Octopus” doesn’t cover it. He very clearly was using more than one way to “wear me down” so he could get sex. He hit me up on the emotional front, he very definately physically molested me, and intellectually he bumfuzzled me because I could not comprehend such utter lack of regard.

I did not “whine” as Thea Logica (ironic name that) so melodramatically implied, and I was actually very clear and “adult” in my tone when I said “I’m not ready” (though it was quiet, it was firmly and clearly said, I read the Scriptures, was a Lector in my church at that age and spoke very well.) I was VERY emphatic, and clear with my wishes, but he did not care to accept them, and dazed me with his emotionally charged verbal onslaught, combined with groping hands, lifting/carrying and squeezing me.

I felt my throat tighten as I said my last “I don’t want to” but it was apprehension, not petulance. I looked him in the eyes for Og’s sake, and said that. That’s pretty damned clear, even for an adult. You need to re-examine your perceptions of just how clearly an overwhelmed 13 year old can form thoughts and act on them. I did take action, to the best of my short circiuted 13 year old ability. Of course it wouldn’t be a supremely logical thing, I was human, and only a child at that.

I was not thinking clearly, I can see that now. I was in a haze, and didn’t leave. That is true. But, what good would it have done? This is what I thought afterwards, “It was my fault, it must have been, I must have done something wrong.” Then, “but what good would it have done, he’d have caught you easy.” He could outrun me, with no effort. We’d played laser tag, and a rule had to be made that he couldn’t sprint to make it fair. He knew where I lived, knew what route I’d blindly head for.

It wasn’t a “tangible” thought in my head as it was occuring, but later it came to me as part of my fractured thinking. In other words, it came to mind, but not to the front of your mind where you notice it, across the back of my mind. Like things you “know” but aren’t aware until later how, because you’ve subconsiously taken notice of the things. I was so overwhelmed, so confused by all the input, outside and the turmoil inside, that I became numb, frozen. Hopeless.

This quote from one of my posts here is the short version of what I’ve said:

AHunter3 No, although I mostly say use the female gender in this thread, I’ve also said “anyone”. Boys/Men can be raped too. ANYONE can. Anyone has the right to change their minds about sex, and the reasonable right to expect that due respect will be given their decision.

I apologise, this is obviously something that has had a huge emotional effect on you. Discussing whether it is or is not rape is irrelevant to how you are feeling. Counselling is maybe something you have done and maybe something you are still working through. Maybe you just feel the urge to vent…sometimes these things just need to get out (I have posted to several suicide threads for the same reason).

Your age at the time is major factor I suppose. Things that happen in our teenage years can definitely shape and colour the way we see ourselves and feel about ourselves.

Calm Kiwi’s post is a very good illustration of just such self blame. She apparently hasn’t sought help to deal with this, and still is simmering in self blame. I was too, for years. She doesn’t want to be a “victim” (btw, I’m not, I’m a survivor) so she refuses to consider that what other people see is might possibly be true.

For what it’s worth, she was raped. This is a glimpse of what I was going through, denying it happened, blaming myself, “not thinking about it” because it hurt so much. Instead of placing the blame where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of the guys who took advantage of her, she blames herself “I was stupid”.

THAT is another thing that needs correction in this society. The fact that women/girls/men/boys are so willing to blame themselves and also MANY OTHERS, (as in this thread) also say “you were also culpable”, or “to blame”. That is why date/acquaintance rape is a “hidden crime”, and doesn’t get reported, or prosecuted, and the laws concerning it aren’t good enough to help either. This too, needs to be looked at honestly, and work done to “unlearn” such behavior.

Just for the record I was not raped and I’m not in denial. Nor am I simmering in self blame, infact I haven’t thought about that event in years. Not till I read this thread.

I left a nightclub VERRRRRRRRY drunk and all alone, when I had the option to leave with a group of about 15 people…STUPID

I stopped to talk to the slimey blokes when they yelled out the car window…STUPID (and drunk)

When I was only a couple of streets away from home I agreed to get in the car…STUPID

When they drove past where I was staying, I didn’t insist they stop or shout out the car window (busy part of town)…STUPID (and drunk)

When I suddenly found myself miles from home with 2 blokes wanting sex, I didn’t run away, shout for help or anything else productive…STUPID

I whined a bit, told them I didn’t want to for a bit and then made them promise to take me home after…VERRRRRRRRRRRRRY STUPID (verrrrrrrrrrrrry drunk)

They were horny and I was stupid. They were arseholes and I was stupid. I take responsibility for my actions and learnt what NOT to do.

I wasn’t raped. I was a silly, drunk girl who got myself in a stupid situation. Another thing we have to correct in our society, taking responsibility for our actions MY actions led me to that place. Their actions led them there. Nothing would have happened if both parties hadn’t taken the actions they had. They were wankers…no denying that. But I acted irresponsibly and stupidly…no denying that either.

I am not blaming myself alone. They were dickheads. It was a meeting of the no-minds but calling this a rape would help me how? I was taught a valuable lesson that night…when verrrrrrrrrrrrry drunk, young and stupid, stick with your mates Had I chosen to call it rape I might not have learned that lesson.

[Tir_Tinuviel]

@Zabali_Clawbane

That’s if you get immediate counseling, and don’t curl up inside in misery, shame, and self blame. If you don’t get help, your self esteem stays low, and you put up with “shit” without giving it a second thought. Many women do just this if they have been date/acquaintance raped.

I never got any councelling, I don’t feel “tenderized”.

@Mr2001

Well, from what I’ve picked up on Loveline, someone who was victimized at 13 was probably “set up” to be a victim even earlier in their lives.

That could very well be the case in this instance. But I can’t believe that every woman who is raped is “set-up” to be a victim.

I was interested in whether the “Raped Once, Easier Twice” statement is actual proven fact, or if Zabali may have exaggerated, understandably, due to her emotional investment in this.

After this happened to me I read a fair amount of stuffs to try to understand better what I was going through, and this is the first time I’ve come across the idea that rape makes you more susceptable to rape.
(Exceptions made for previously mentioned women who unconsciously seek out abusive relationships.)

[calm_kiwi]

@Rilchiam

kiwi, I am not just talking about a legal offense here. I am talking about this fucking disgusting sense of entitlement that is getting worse every year. And I don’t just mean “these kids today”; there were spoiled assholes in my generation too.

Look at zabali’s story, for crissakes. The whole thing started because her b/f decided he was entitled to sex because it was his birthday. This wasn’t something they’d talked about earlier and agreed upon, as in, “Hey, Saturday’s my birthday…do you think we could…um…?”. No, it was just, “Hey, thanks for the t-shirt, but I want a really special present!” Just. Like. That.

No arguement from me here. I do think teenagers have thought they were entitled to a bonk since JC was a twinkle in Mary’s eye though (shit Joeseph must have felt a real sense of entitlement when he found the big guy beat him to the punch!) Comes back to what I just said though. Responsibility. Girls have no reason to be less responsible for their actions then boys do.

Someone mentioned that you can be naked and still say no. Yes you can. But for fucks sake if you don’t want to have sex what the fuck are you doing naked? Be responsible. That old cliche “cocktease” is old and cliched for a reason. It doesn’t give boys the right to act like arseholes but if a girl if naked and playing along he probably assumes she is going to continue to do so. If she acts responsibly and doesn’t get naked he is more likely to behave himself. Entitlement is wrong but both parties need to act reasonably and responsibly. Naked girls saying no are not being responsible.

[catsix]

Rilchaim said:
Fine, whatever. How 'bout this, then: Nobody, male or female, is entitled to get exactly what they want, right when they want it, just because they want it. And I’ll admit that there are some girls who will use sex as a means of manipulation.

I wasn’t trying to be mean, only to suggest an addition to what is a really good lesson. I suggest this because, although rare, I have a friend who was abused in two relationships by two separate women and one of the reasons he had such a hard time finally realizing this and leaving the second girl was that he’d never even heard of a guy getting abused.

I think you’re instilling good things, though, and your kids are already way less likely than a lot of others to be either a victimizer or a victim.

But I still maintain that there are one hell of a lot of guys who think that they are entitled to sex. And a guy forcing himself on a girl has more traumatic effects, in a longer term, than a girl blowing a guy so he’ll vote for her for homecoming queen. Sure, it’s wrong, but what does he lose from that?

Yes, you’re right, a blowjob does seem trivial compared to forced penetration. I think also though, a guy who feels victimized may have his feelings compounded with the social message that he’s whining about nothing, though. Both of those can really mess someone up, which is horrible for them, no matter who ‘has it worse’. Of course, that’s only my opinion.

[calm_kiwi]

@catsix

I
Yes, you’re right, a blowjob does seem trivial compared to forced penetration.

If forced neither are trivial and IMHO a blowjob might be worse and harder to forget…It’s your mouth after all

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Firstly, I was speaking of rapes done by someone the “survivor” knew, not so much stranger rape, when I said that people who had this happen to them stood a higher chance of it happening again. Those chances are reduced if the person seeks counseling, and learns what they can do to be stronger, and grow healthy. Otherwise, it’s as if the denial about the truth of the event (s) blinds the person enough that they don’t see the warning signs so they can avoid it happening again. This isn’t as I’ve said, every case. I’m sure it’s the opposite in some cases. But it is the case sometimes.

Mr2001 Yes, Dr. Drew on Loveline is correct. Since you brought this concept up, I’ll share a bit of what else caused my weakness to abusive relationships. None of my relatives did anything to me. (These events are older than my loss of my virginity, and I’ve had more counseling and time to deal with them. It’s not quite as hard to talk about them, one of the reasons for this is because I wasn’t close to the people that did these things.) However, we lived in a slum for a time, (a small town slum, a river town slum) and as a grade school kid I was exposed to things.

Like the teenage guy that lived a few blocks over from me (I want to say 19, but don’t know if that’s correct) who offered to show me his puppy, but instead (much to my puzzlement) put me on his bed, laid on top of me, and told me he wasn’t going to let me go until I gave him my pussy. I was maybe in 1st grade, and I thought “pussy” was just another name for kitty, like in “Puss in Boots”. I didn’t want to give my pet away, and he was squashing me. So, I cried and told him he was squashing me. He got up, and looked scared, and let me go.

Fortunately for me, I got away (No harm done, right?) and came home crying and told my mom when she asked what had happened to make me cry. I heard he went to jail, but I didn’t have to testify in court, just told the police officer what happened. That was a hard thing to do, I was scared, but my mom said I had to do the “right thing” and “tell the truth”. I don’t know if he went to trial or not. If he did, they didn’t have me testify. That was also a factor that made it easier for me to be in an abusive relationship. Mom got me to counseling for it, and my father, meaning well, told me if any other strange boy tried something like that I was to call for help, I was to scream “Rape”. So, the idea that only a stranger would do that was put in my mind too. I had nightmares after that, where I’d wake up yelling “Rape”. They quit by the time I was in 3rd grade though. That’s all I remember about it, I don’t think he penetrated me, because I don’t remember going to the doctor and getting any kind of exam that was different than usual.

There were other things, like the guy across the street asking me if I wanted “candy” while he was making strange hand gestures. Years I later realized he was masturbating, AND IT WAS GREEN WHEN IT CAME OUT, I saw it trickle down his hand! I don’t think it’s a distorted memory, it just stuck in my mind because it was so odd, and I couldn’t understand at the time what it meant. No, I didn’t go over to him, he was a in a small shed with the door open, close to the street. I was heading home for supper, my mom was calling me. This was about the same time that teenage guy did what he did.

Or, the old man, who kissed me strangely when I went to visit my mom with my dad and little brother in the hospital, who was sick with an ulcer. (She’d lost so much blood I found out later, that she needed a transfusion.) Only one person at a time could go in to see her, so I had to wait in the waiting room. This man didn’t kiss my cheek, he kissed my mouth, and called it sugar, and put his hands on my bare thigh. (I was wearing shorts.) I went away from him, feeling stupid. I stayed away, and ran when he came close to me. I don’t know where my brother was at the time, maybe going to buy a soda across the hospital. He left me alone after I ran.

I was almost 10, and knew what he’d done was “bad touching” but I didn’t tell because I didn’t want to get into trouble. He’d said something like “Hey little girl, come here.” or something like that. I was taught to obey grown ups, and so I went to see what he wanted, he pulled me onto his lap, and kissed me. I don’t know why I thought I’d get into trouble, except maybe (looking back) it was more I didn’t want to “make trouble” and worry dad again. Escpecially my dad, mom could handle things like that, oddly enough, and she’s the one that’s a terrible worrier. I think I just didn’t want any more upheaval, and thought that if I didn’t tell, it would be ok. I also thought I wouldn’t be believed because he “just kissed me”.

Those were molestations/sexual assualts. They contributed to what happened later.

Why didn’t I run at 13? He was my boyfriend, I trusted him, I was “in love” with him. He wouldn’t hurt me, would he? He cared about me, didn’t he? That’s why I didn’t those first 15 minutes or so, then shock kept me from thinking straight, and taking better action after that. I know that it made a bigger impact on me because I knew him, and trusted him, and thought he respected and loved me.

All of that, and more are contributing factors. Yes, I’ve been through extensive counseling, and am continuing. It does make you more likely to put up with shit that most people wouldn’t. Not everyone does, but the chances of someone who’s been sexually assualted at a young age of being in an abusive relationship (not necessarily a dating relationship) are noticeably higher because they just “put up with it” and don’t stand up for themselves. If they don’t take steps to heal, and get the strength to stand up for themselves, they are open to being taken advantage of again, in more than one way. I know I put up with a lot of shit from more than one person, not just the guy I married, I had “friends” that were abusive users too. I’m still healing.

[tiny_ham]

um OK.

Zabali, I think you may better quit while you’re ahead. Your story is getting…frightening and…quite extensive.

I’m not saying for sure that you’re making things up…but this thread is kind of getting out of hand.

Whatever happened to you at 13, even if we choose to call it Framduglement or something, was terrible, and from that you can decide whether you need counseling.

Be careful of wearing the victim badge too proudly. It’s not good for you.

[Zabali_Clawbane]

Actually, until the thread that spawned this OP came up, what happened in the past really didn’t come into my thoughts on a day to day basis. (Unless I was in a counseling session, but those aren’t every day.) I’ve learned to “leave it in the past”. However, understanding of how events “add up” is also a part of learning to heal, and also helping someone that such things has happened to heal.

I survived. I continue to heal, and grow. I want others to understand what goes on, and why. I’m not afraid to speak up about what happened to me, if I think it will help people comprehend fully, so they can help out in their own way with this problem. It’s a societal problem, and it needs correction. Many things need to be done to help with this. Teaching young people of both genders how to respect themselves, and others is a big thing that needs to be done.

I’m sorry those last details made you uncomfortable jarbabyj. They don’t seem as shocking to me, because I’ve had to deal with them already. They happened so long ago. The events did shape how I reacted, but they (the ones previous to the one at 13) don’t shape me today, except in that I’ve strengthened myself. Also, having gone to meetings for battered women, I think maybe I didn’t realize how shocking what I recounted would be for some. I apologize for upsetting people. I wanted to let people see, that it is true. Things like that do shape what the person is vunerable to later on. I’ve had to face this ugly truth down, and work to heal myself, and prevent future happenings. I’ve already faced it, so I could get stronger.

As I’ve said before, I’m not a victim, I’m a survivor. I’ve taken back my life, and know how to make better choices, and usually do make them. I want people to see, to look, and finally comprehend the how’s and why’s of this ugly ugly event, both the events leading up to it, and the ones that follow. That is what this thread is for.

[armedmonkey]

@shodan

Well, Zabali_Clawbone was thirteen. Therefore, she could not give consent. Therefore, it was rape. QED.

@malkavia

Um, Wtf?! Since when is statutory rape not really rape?

::Sigh::

I am only going to say this one more time: Statutory rape is not rape, and never has been. The two are separate crimes with separate definitions and separate sentencing guidelines. Though the two may occur concurently during the same act, they don’t always, and one does not equal the other.

Sometimes theft by taking occurs concurently with armed robbery, but that doesn’t mean that theft by taking is armed robbery. Some people in this thread need to remember that the same is true with rape and statutory rape. The two crimes have very different definitions.

Statutory rape is not rape because we don’t sentence a 17 year old to prison for 20 years for having consensual sex with his 15 year old girlfriend. In that case it would be statory rape, but not rape. If however, the sex wasn’t consensual, then it would be statutory rape and rape. The guy would be guilty of two separate crimes and have to sentences for both.

Everybody see how this works now?

[Bricker]

@A Monkey With a Gun

::Sigh::

I am only going to say this one more time: Statutory rape is not rape, and never has been. The two are separate crimes with separate definitions and separate sentencing guidelines. Though the two may occur concurently during the same act, they don’t always, and one does not equal the other.

This is technically true, but confusingly worded.

In Virginia, to take an example with which I am somewhat familiar, the law provides in pertinent part:

§ 18.2-61. Rape.

A. If any person has sexual intercourse with a complaining witness who is not his or her spouse or causes a complaining witness, whether or not his or her spouse, to engage in sexual intercourse with any other person and such act is accomplished (i) against the complaining witness’s will, by force, threat or intimidation of or against the complaining witness or another person, or (ii) through the use of the complaining witness’s mental incapacity or physical helplessness, or (iii) with a child under age thirteen as the victim, he or she shall be guilty of rape.

That is the crime of “rape.” It’s fair to say that the same code section is violated either by force, threat, or intimidation, no matter the age of the complainant; or by intercourse with a complainant under the age of thirteen. The crime of rape occurs either way.

Of course, the elements of a criminal conviction under §18.2-61(i) are different than the elements of a criminal conviction under §18.2-61(iii). The two are separate for Blockburger purposes, since (iii) requires proof of age and doesn’t care about force, and (i) requires proof of force but doesn’t care about age.

• Rick

[malkavia]

@Mr2001

Apparently, in the Netherlands, where the age of consent is 12, kids do have that emotional capacity at 13 years of age. What is it about American teenagers that makes them so much worse at judging whether they really want to have sex - lack of education? Something in the water? Shouldn’t we be doing something about it?

Or maybe the age of consent in the Netherlands is frighteningly low?

We generally wouldn’t allow an unsupervised 12 year old to play with a gun, and considering the gravity of the situation (possible pregnancy, STD’s, rape, etc), I don’t see how sex is too much different.

[malkavia]

@A Monkey With a Gun

Statutory rape is not rape because we don’t sentence a 17 year old to prison for 20 years for having consensual sex with his 15 year old girlfriend. In that case it would be statory rape, but not rape. If however, the sex wasn’t consensual, then it would be statutory rape and rape. The guy would be guilty of two separate crimes and have to sentences for both.

Everybody see how this works now?

Perhaps the title of statutory rape should not include 15 and 16 yr olds (though 15 still seems a bit young) who have sex with people within 2 years of their own age? I’m not saying it’s a perfect system, but what if the boyfriend is 18, she’s 14? How about 19 and 13? How about 21 and 11? Where do you draw the line? Is a 10 year old capable of consent? Why do you think we have a specific line drawn called “age of consent”. What does that mean to you? To me, it means the age at which one can CONSENT. If you are below said age, you are unable to consent. And what is rape, again? Didn’t if have something to do with being able to give consent? Hmm.

Do I think a 16 year old should go to prison for emotionally berating a 13 yr old to have sex with him? Not at all. They’re both minors and it sounds like they both should’ve been reported and directed into therapy, by the sounds of it. She wasn’t old enough to make the decision and he obviously was heading down a very dangerous path emotional dominance.

[wring]

@A Monkey With a Gun

::Sigh::

If however, the sex wasn’t consensual, then it would be statutory rape and rape. The guy would be guilty of two separate crimes and have to sentences for both.

Everybody see how this works now?

Not always. Depends on how the legislation is worded in the jurisdiction. IN MI for ex, the Criminal Sexual Conduct laws are written in such a way that there would only be one crime charged for underaged non consensual sexual contact (though they don’t phrase it that way, given the concept there is no ability to ‘consent’ underage). lesser included crimes are generally. IIRC, not allowed to be also included to add more time (so, for example one would not be allowed to sentence an offender for “armed robbery” plus “larceny from a person” for the same act - additional time for ‘using a weapon to commit a felony’ notwithstanding)

[leander]

This thread has turned into a fucking nightmare.

Zabali, I don’t believe a word you’re saying. Not one word. At one point I did – but now I think you’re completely full of shit.

If you opened this thread to “fight ignorance”, you have most certainly failed. But I’m quite sure that’s not the reason you started this whole mess; I think you’re desperate for attention and validation.

I am the first person to side with a true victim of rape or sexual assualt – and I’m always prepared to believe his or her story.

Congratulations – you’ve now made me more skeptical. Listening to you makes me think that there are more women out there who are completely full of shit, and more men who are sent away for no good reason.

Hope you’re happy.

[Tremmie]

@leander

This thread has turned into a fucking nightmare.

Indeed. I much rather err on the side of believing a lie rather than telling a girl thats been raped shes lying, but after each retelling it gets alot harder to believe. Zabali i think at this point this thread is doing alot more harm than good, it might be time to ask for it to be closed.

[PunditLisa]

Egads. FWIW, I ditto Tremmie.

[Oy]

Oh, I think Miss zabali has wanted it closed ever since it became apparent that a fair number of Dopers weren’t going to just roll over and give her Victim of the Year award because she seemed to want it. Over in the catsix pit thread, we have:

@Zabali_Clawbane

They are certainly tenacious, and unwilling to relax their jaw popping grip on whatever concept they happen to have taken a fancy to, that’s for sure. Once those teeth sink in, it’s over. All thinking stops. They are continuing to do so in my thread even now. :rolleyes:

I got interested in Zabali as a result of this thread. Her story changed so many times, she was so nasty about astro, and for someone who was supposedly taking a break from the thread because she was emotionally distraught, she sure came back fast to announce that she wasn’t a Victim, she was a Survivor (when an hour or so earlier she had been talking about how nothing was her fault because she had been “damaged”). So I did a search on the threads she’s started. The results were quite interesting.

In the 13 months that Zabali has been a member, she has opened sixteen threads. Of these, fourteen have been in the Pit. Five have been pitting other Dopers, just based on the titles. Four more have been threads pitting people she knows in real life whom she believes to have treated her badly or insensitively. ANother was crying about how poor she is because she is disabled and can’t work and is only getting $550/month in Medicaid, and another bemoaning the horrified stares and whispers she gets from the ugly abdominal scars she has from having a hysterectomy. (Having had a hysterectomy myself, I’m wondering who all the people are who can see these scars, since they would normally be covered by clothing.)

Although there is no doubt in my mind that Zabali has had some rough times, at this point I believe her to be a complete sympathy junkie. As far as I’m concerned, her credibility is zero.

[Jadis]

::coughfreakfeelycough::

[BoBettie]

@Jadis

::coughfreakfeelycough::

I was thinking the exact same thing- I’m waiting for the part where the wallet got returned and no harm was done in real life.