astro, it's NOT my fault! No means NO!

The BBQ Pit
1

In this thread, astro repeatedly trivializes my statements that I was date raped, and calls them “absurd”. Even after I provided a link, backing up my assertations that what had happened was rape, and going into more detail, he continues with such things as this:

and

Jaw drop

Sputter

WHAT. THE. FUCK?!!

I’ve had to put up with this kind of shit enough, and I won’t take it here! I call BULLSHIT! What the fuck is wrong with you, that you won’t at least back down if not apologize? I’m not going to be a doormat, and accept blame for something in which I am BLAMELESS! I was NOT in the wrong, he was. He should have taken “No” as an answer, and backed off!

This isn’t even mentioning that since he was 16, and of “legal age to consent” and I was only 13, by Kansas law he committed a FELONY!

This is only focusing on the fact that I WAS pressured into giving him sex, just so he’d leave me alone! I don’t think he’d have let me walk away, because as I said, he was already picking me up and attempting to carry me off, and also trying to undress me. I focused on the emotional aspects more than the physical aspects of it because the words he said as he did those things still haunt me.

What you did, (blaming me, because I “could have walked away” but didn’t.) has re-opened wounds that had closed. I’m crying you sick bastard! Ask yourself, this, if I truly wasn’t raped, why the HELL is there still so much pain? Why the hell am I so fucked up in the head emotionally? Why have I got such big “trust issues”? Why, if I wasn’t raped? (Twice) I have the “scars” of a sexual abuse survivor, and NONE of my relatives did anything of that sort to me. It was only compounded and magnified when I was violently raped years later. I SAID NO BOTH TIMES, I SAID NO REPEATEDLY!

Once you are raped, you are “tenderized”, that is, vunerable to being raped again, or being in an abusive relationship. Because my first time involved emotional blackmail, it warped me, and made me more “willing” to put up with shit I shouldn’t have. I see this now. This still doesn’t make it my fault, it means I’m flawed, and need help to get well again.

Don’t you think I haven’t hated myself, blamed myself, wanted to die, thought I “got what I’d purchased” for YEARS when remembering how I lost my virginity? Don’t you think I’ve still got an acrid taste in my mouth, and still go over ways I could have “prevented” the violent rape? I’ve just learned to quit blaming myself for what happened both times, and to acknowledge that I’m human, not a super being. I made a mistake in that I didn’t walk away when he kept pestering me, but that does not make it my fault. I made a several mistakes that made me “easy pickings” for a rapist the second time around too. That still doesn’t make it my fault. HE (2nd rapist) chose to force himself on me, HE (boyfriend)chose to keep at it until he '“had his way with me”.

The guy who “took” my virginity had choices, and he chose to do what he did. HE had the problem, he did the wrong. He had a responsibility to respect my wishes, and he did not. I’ve had to go through YEARS of counseling to help me recover from this, and I’ve finally grown a backbone! I’m not to blame because I was young, and didn’t have one then. I am also not to blame because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

YOU have wronged me, in that you have pasted blame on me. You have caused harm, and you have failed repeatedly to see this, and make amends. You have in a sense “re-raped” me. I’m angry, hurt, crying, and full of loathing for you.

I tried to be civil, and to point out my perspective to you in the linked thread to no avail, so I started this thread to stop a further hijacking of that one. All I asked for was respect, of which none was given. You are of less worth than a tick on a baboon’s ass. **YOU LOUSY SCUM! HOW DARE YOU? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?!! **

Here, you ignorant ass, are some more links for you to read.

Consent

15 things every man needs to know about date and acquaintance rape.

The definiton of rape is changing

Why you should know about date rape.

Love and Loss

Kansas Statutes (Scroll well down, it spefically mentions sex with a child under 14.)

I will, eventually be able to wish do whatever it is you do, in peace, but not now, not today. All I want, is for you to just…keep the HELL away from me, you slimy bastard! Don’t speak to me, don’t “touch” me!

I will work to purge this anger, because it’s not good for me to stay angry, but for now I am FURIOUS! I don’t know if I can ever forgive this, and I certainly won’t forget. Once a person has caused a wound like that, it’s a good indication that they will do it again.

I wrote this thread, to stand up for myself, and to help get the word out to those who really don’t understand such things. You, have persisted in remaining ignorant, but I hope that other Dopers will not.

2

What an asshole. :mad:

3

Eek. As a fellow date rape survivor who spent the remainder of that evening scrubbing and crying in my bathtub, I know how hurt you must feel.

Just because someone wasn’t hit over the head with a brick or split stem to stern with a knife doesn’t mean they weren’t raped.

I think sometimes people want to brush off date rape because they don’t want to acknowledge how much of it is going on in the world.

Here’s a tip: even if you get drunk, have dinner, go home with a guy, strip naked, kiss him, lay down and THEN decide you don’t want to have sex, you say no. If he persists…he’s raping you.

4

Man, I hope he explains himself, because that’s just fucked up.

5

OK, so, your then BF physically forced you down and forcibly had sex with you while you were struggling…

Oh, you capitulated because he was bigger than you and you were terrified that he would do you physical harm if you didn’t “give in”.

He got you drunk/stoned so that you didn’t know what you were doing when you had sex with him?

Oh, I see. You sat there and let him badger you for two hours then finally gave grudging consent.

Sorry, but you were not raped, except statutorily.

Yes, by law in most states, a person below a certain age is considered legally incapaple of giving consent to sex, but that’s why they call it “statutory rape.” Statutory rape is still legally rape even if the younger party aggressively pursues the older.

Yes, your ex was wrong for pressuring you into having sex with him, but he did not rape you.

Sorry, but I gotta go with astro on this one.

6

I agree with you here, Zabali. What happened to you was an awful event and astro used your situation to better his argument, regardless of what consequences it may have brought upon your emotional state. For this reason he is an absolute prick. But you need to calm down yourself, you know. You said that this has opened old wounds and it seems like you pushed your point too hard in that thread. I know you wanted astro to understand rape isn’t always a physical dominance but you’ve shown you weren’t ready. Take it easy and look after number one. ok?

I’m not sticking up for the jerk but I can see where he has some reasoning. In this world there are men that are arseholes. They will use people like you were used and enjoy it. There are also women who are bitches as well. They’ll do this:

for the sole reasoning of hurting you. Believe me I know girls like this. And while jarbabyj’s statement is entirely true and should never be refuted rape is a sick joke to some people.

7

Let me get this straight. You directly solicit an opinion in that thread on whether you were “raped” or not based on the situation you described in some detail (posted below) wherein you have sex with your manipulative, pestering, grabby boyfriend to get him to stop pestering you to have sex with him as a “birthday present”.

You can believe as many things as you wish, but what you described was not rape, and insisting it is rape is (IMO) pushing the contextual definition of what constitutes being “raped” way past any sensible boundaries.

.

8

I think I agree with Astro (I haven’t read all the other thread). I think the important point here is that no one is saying that what happened to you was not bad, or didn’t have a negative impact on your life, or even recommending that as an appropriate course of action. Just that a distinction can and should be made between that and rape.

Frankly, I think the idea (if this is in fact what you are advocating) that you can send someone to jail for years for pestering someone until they agreed to have sex - with no implied threat at all - is absurd, and is likely a far bigger injustice than what you have suffered.

By implication, anyone who agreed to anything that someone else nagged them into doing is not truly consenting and is being coerced. So that someone who went on a trip with someone after being nagged into it is being kidnapped, etc. I don’t think so.

9

Statutory rape is rape. No ifs ands or buts. Rape.

10

The OP was clearly raped, based solely on her age at the time of the act. As a matter of law, she was unable to give consent to the act. That ought to settle the question.

But the OP raises what I consider a more general point:

Based on the law, I’m afraid I’d disagree. “Continues to pressure,” simply does not create a crime if that pressure leads to consent. Of course, the OP doesn’t say what the word “pressure” means.

“Have sex with me or I’ll break up with you, and you won’t have a date to prom,” is certainly a form of pressure, but does not constitute rape.

“Have sex with me, or I’ll burn your parents’ house to the ground,” is ALSO ‘pressure,’ and it is clearly rape.

It’s unclear to me what “pressure” means – but the general sense I get from the OP’s quoted paragraph is merely continuing to ask after one “No” has been given is sufficient to create the crime of rape. That’s a conclusion I reject, and is one unsupported by the law. As long as the “pressure” consists merely of repeated entreaties, and doesn’t become illegal threats or physical force, then it’s boorish behavior, but not rape.

As I say, none of the above applies to the OP. We enact into law an age of consent rule for precisely this reason: children are vulnerable to pressure and manipulation that adults are not. A child cannot be expected to understand the pressures and subtle manipulations that characterize this sort of deplorable approach to having sex.

  • Rick
11

I’m curious as to whether Izzy, Thea and Astro ‘believe’ in date rape at all, or if they think all rape is ‘stranger in an alley’ type things.

Suffice it to say when you’re thirteen, if a huge guy is ‘coercing you’ i.e., sitting on your chest so you can’t breathe, pinning your arms down, threatening you…you may relent, but that doesn’t mean you gjive CONSENT.

12

Yeah, I’m having a hard time viewing this as rape (except in the statutory sense, obviously.) At no point was the situation out of your control. You easily could have walked out. I hate to say it, but this reads to me like you perhaps should shoulder some of the blame. It was indeed wrong of him to keep after you, but if you truly didn’t want to have sex, you should not have let him pester you into it.

It’s a hard, tough situation, and I feel for you, an immature 13 year old in a tight spot, but it was only tight because you stayed. Were you under any physical pressure to stay in the same room as the guy?

13

Astro was directly asked for his opinion. He gave it. Next time, don’t ask if you don’t want to hear it.

Also, Zabali, there is no doubt you were/are traumatized. I’m sorry for the pain you feel. But the thought of accusing someone of rape because they verbally pestered you sits uncomfortably with me.

The thread in question was starting to explore the different gradataion of the legal concepts of rape, as well as distinguishing law from morality. You brought yourself up as an example in what had turned into a debate. You opened yourself up for someone to disagree with you.

14

Holy cow. Are you kidding? A thirteen year old girl being threatened by a 16 year old MALE? You really think she could have just gotten up and walked away without being harmed? When I was thirteen I could have easily been pinned to the ground by someone probably even YOUNGER than me.

Sometimes ‘pestering’ can mean “I’ll kill you/your dog/your family” if you don’t."

15

Forgot to add: was/is 16 the age of consent in your situation, Zabali? I’m just wondering if anyone could get on board with the idea that you were both raped, if neither of you was old enough to give consent under the law.

16

I never really saw any threats in her account, other than the “do this or I won’t like you anymore” variety.

17

Agreed, but that’s not what Zabali said happened.

If the guy merely pleads, cajoles, wheedles, whines, begs, and whispers, and you keep saying “no,” but then get tired of it and say “yes,” that’s consent. I would never, ever, ever use such tactics myself, because I think it’s rude and unacceptable, but it is not a crime.

Now, if at any point during the ensuing proceedings, Zabali said no (even after she’d been pestered into “yes” before,) and the guy kept going, it was absolutely rape.

18

Zabali_Clawbane

It’s situations like yours that made me come round to the belief that rape needs an affirmative consent standard. Under present law, and disgracefully so, in most states saying no as a woman is not sufficient to make sex rape. Most states require a force element as well, and the inherent force of penetration is not considered sufficient. In New Jersey, the court determiend that the definition of phyical force “is satisfied under NJSA 2C:12-2c(1) if the defendant applies and amount of force agaisnt another person in the absence of what a reasonable person would believe to be affirmative and freely given permission to the act of sexual penetration.”

The present situation produces crazy results. I mentioned in the other thread the high school principal who has not committed rape when he required a 17 year old to have sex with him or be flunked out of school. Nor in PA was a 14 year old raped when her choice was sex or being sent back to juvenile detention. Similarly, we can see cases of woman who ask their assailant to wear a condom being seen as having granted consent.

What happened to you was not the giving of meaningful and free consent. Not only do I think that no means no, I also think that anyone has the right to be asked for permission before anyone puts anything into their body. And that consent, if not freely given (under a reasonable man standard) is not good enough. You have my heartfelt sympathy for your suffering, and my hope that you have come out of it as unscathed as possible.

19

Bricker, it was my impression that statutory rape does not imply if the older partner is also a minor or is at least within a few years of the age of the other partner. In this case, the guy was 16.

jarbaby, I believe Bricker addressed your previous post. As to your most recent one, the fact that someone could do something does not mean that we automatically assume that he was threatening to do it.

20

Sorry, Zabali, but you are trivializing rape. A female friend of mine was raped 12 years ago. The rapist (who she did not know) entered her house when she was in the shower, waited for her to get out of the bathroom, slammed her into her dresser, busting open her jaw and breaking a tooth, then the rapist hit her in the face, told her to shut up, got on top of her and held a knife to her throat, and penetrated her.

THAT is rape.

Clearyl you suffered emotional trauma, and yes, you were too young to be in any way responsible for what happened to you.

You were taken advantage of, but you were not raped. Rape is an ugly, hateful thing that should not be confused with a young girl being emotionally manipulated by an unscrupulous boyfriend.

Jarbaby, is that what happened to Zabali? Her account says only that " I said “No, I’m not ready for that.” He continued to plead, and beg, and would not relent. Finally he began kissing me, still pleading. I eventually relented, and lost my virginity in his parent’s backyard under the full moon. "