Well, I don’t know all the details except for the paragraph cited in this thread. I’m more responding to folks who suggest that a girl can just walk away from a rape situation, like Ogre suggested, and people like Izzy or thea who seem to not be open to the idea of date rape at all, or are ‘uncomfortable’ with it, if I’m reading their posts correctly.
Date rape is very real, and I guarantee all of us know someone who has lived through it.
But NONE of that was in Zabali’s account. Where are you getting all this threat stuff? All she said was that he kept insisting he wanted to give her a “special present.” Crude, slimy, and adolescent, yes. Threat? No. She never said that he “said was going to give me a special present whether I wanted it or not,” or that he threatened her or her family in any way.
It is just possible, to my mind, that she simply caved under persuasion without threats or force. If this is so, it’s not rape. If there was even one “no” after her consent, or any force, or any threat, then yes, it most definitely was rape.
I’ve got a lot to say so stick with me here.
I admit that I did not read this at the beginning and for this reason I’m starting to side more with astro. But that still doesn’t mean that you can be such a jerk about her feelings astro, ok?
This is why statutory rape is a felony. Zabali was 13 years old. She would not have thought of alternatives because she was a child. It’s fair enough saying what was the “right path” but in the circumstances she was easy to manipulate and that is the meaning of rape. But it should not be called rape. She hurt real bad from the events but what I see now is what could be considered a bad first time. This does not lessen the pain she wants to feel, nor should it make that fucker of a boyfriend’s actions any more right and legal. A rose by any other name, after all.
Did I miss something? Zabali has said that nothing physically prevented her from leaving, although there was no doubt in her mind it would have come to that. What you describe jarbabyj is rape. What Zabali describes is only rape by legal definition. Some 13 year olds can decide upon sex. She could not and she has had to pay for it. Should the boy have been charged with a felony? He’s a great tosser and if he had become physically violent then yes but what was described isn’t rape.
I hear you, believe me. It’s a sad fact. But what’s got Zabali so upset is an opinion that was solicited, and, IMO, correct on astro’s part. Check out the thread- it’s a pretty interesting discussion.
I find myself completely in agreement with Bricker on this one. You were raped because you were 13, not because he pestered you. The fact that you were 13 lead (IMO) to your inability to tell you BF to go pound salt, and lead directly to your capitulation.
I really dislike the idea that one can be raped without the slightest violence, or even the suggestion of violence (though the principal case is food for thought). It seems as though any miscommunication during the act of sex can wind up as “rape”.
I’ve had a woman tell me I wasn’t insistent enough about getting sex and that I should have been more forward about it. She was playing hard to get, and I wasn’t trying hard enough. With someone else, trying harder may have been rape. Differeng points of view shouldn’t change a consentual sex act into a felony rape.
Actually, I would like to retract part of my earlier opinion based on this. gobear put it particularly well. You shouldn’t have to shoulder part of the blame, simply because you were too young to be responsible, but I still can’t see it as rape.
What are you saying here? Putting aside Zabali’s story that only a violent, stranger initiated offense can be rape?
This is what I’m concerned about with some of the folks in this thread. A rapist can be your dad, your teacher, your boyfriend of nine years. It can be YOUR HUSBAND. It doesn’t have to end with a woman in the hospital bleeding. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Regardless of what happened to Zabali, which sounds terrible, and regardless of your feelings about that story…date rape IS very real, and very horrid.
If the emotional pressure is such that it becomes blackmail, and causes the person subjected to it to capitulate, than to me (some courts, and many advocacy groups) that constitutes a form of “force”.
He was, actually also behaving inappropriately in other ways, in that he was carrying me places I did not want to go, and kept leaving, and trying to undress me which I also refused to allow, both verbally and by action. It’s the emotional tactics that worked though, because they (combined with what he was physically doing) numbed me, confused me, got me to the point that I’d whatever it took to make it stop and get some peace.
Thea Logica I’ve thought you were an intelligent poster before this, but all I can say now, is that I sincerely hope that you are NEVER in such a situation, and that you don’t ever have that burden added to what you already carry. Do you remember that I offered solid words of comfort and well wishing to you in your time of need a while back? I still wish you well, but I have lost some respect for you.
I see that astro continues to draw his cloak of ignorance close. You keep spouting the same things, but you can’t see that I have a valid point, that is more in touch with reality than yours. Whether or not all courts agree with the definition of date rape that I’ve given yet or not, isn’t the whole of the point. I think that one day laws will be made to cover this type of situation, and I wait for the day. (Non physically forced, non drugged etc.) Date rape DOES happen, it’s morally, and soon to be legally wrong and it is gender nuetral.
You still fail to admit that you’ve harmed, and still stubbornly perch on your “point”. I’d say it’s your pride causing this, but then again, I don’t care to get to know you well enough to ascertain this. You’ve done enough harm already, go away.
nocturnal_tick What you are saying, is easier said than done for me. The old feelings this has dredged up are very potent, and combined with other things that have recently happened hard to banish. It’s hard, when you feel very strongly about a subject, not to speak up passionately for what you believe in. At least, that’s how it is for me. What he did, was very wrong, hurtful, and it needs to be addressed. Read the links I provided, they might provide educational to you.
I didn’t “get him in trouble”, I quietly suffered, for years, and eventually got into an abusive marriage. I didn’t report the second rape either, because at the time, I mistakenly thoght I was to blame for it because I’d “set myself up” for it to happen.
It wasn’t until I was in a battered women’s shelter that I began actually getting counseling specifically aimed at helping sexual assault survivors. I’d had counseling before, to treat my unexplained anxiety, trust issues, and low self esteem.
For the rest, my last words to him that evening were **“I don’t want to”. ** He was undressing me at the time. After that I stayed silent, and counted the stars until it was over. He could easily pick me up and carry me off, and was doing so. His actions said: “Give it up willingly, or I’ll take it”. He took it. I did walk away from his parent’s back yard, and moved to sit on his parent’s well lighted porch, in veiw of the neighbors. He kept carrying me to a dimmer place, and continued pressing me. He exhausted me. It was rape.
I’m not sure where you get this, or even what you mean, for that matter.
FWIW, I think the definition of rape would be the same whether it is committed on a date or anywhere else. If you mean some new concept of “date rape” you’ll have to elaborate.
Did you actually read any of the posts in this thread, or are you so amped about the issue that you are incapable of rational thought on the subject?
If a person physically forces sexual intercourse upon another person, it is rape.
If a person uses the threat of physica harm to coerce another person into sex, it is rape. (I’m a little iffy on the “I’ll kill your pet/burn down your parents’ house” issue. It seems to me that in a case like this, unless the person making the threat has the ability to transport himself to the scene of the threatened crime before the person being threatened with violence to a third party would have an opportunity to contact the police or the people being threatened, then yeah, I would say it was rape.)
If a person obtains consent for sex by getting another person so intoxicated that they are not in a condition to be able to give informed consent, it is rape.
Obviously, all of these scenarios can occur in the context of a date.
If a person requests sex of another person, gets an answer of “no”, and repeats the request, intermixed with shows of affection, flattery, claims that refusal is proof of lack of love, etc. until the person of whom the request is being made finally relents and consents to having sex, then it is not rape.
Nowhere in her posts did Zabali claim that her then BF was sitting on her chest, pinning her arms, or threatening her.
Then he raped you. You’ll receive no further argument from me on that. But you did not make that at all clear before.
Just out of curiosity, why were you dating a 16-year-old when you were only 13?
Robin
For the record, he did not actually verbally “threaten” me, he used emotional coercion. It was all “implied” with his actions. I felt, that if I didn’t “go along” with it, he’d make me. I was already hurt, and confused that he didn’t listen to me the first dozen times I’d said “No” and didn’t know what to do with such a huge emotional weight suddenly dropped on me. I suddenly felt I wasn’t valued, and my trust was shattered. I was short circuited, and I couldn’t think straight, and had no idea what to do.
Folks, I’m only posting to this thread because the OP expressed a desire to ‘get the word out’ about date rape, and I wanted to help, as it has long been a pet cause of mine. I don’t know Zabali, and I don’t know exactly what happened to her that night, whatever it was, it sounds horrible.
Izzy, my definition of rape was stated pretty clearly above. Even if you’re best friends with someone, even if you LIVE with someone, even if you are MAKING OUT with someone naked, if you are uncomfortable and unwilling to proceed with having sex and articulate that by saying NO, I DON’T WANT TO, or STOP, and your partner proceeds to have sex with you (with or without physical violence, Cheesesteak), against your will…that is raped.
The day after my rape, there was no evidence I had been assaulted. I wasn’t hit or beaten, or stabbed…I was just raped. I was threatened, blackmailed, and sexually assaulted. Have there been women that suffered far worse? Women and men? Absolutely…but I don’t think it’s right to diminish the horrors that any rape survivor has been through.
FWIW, if those were your last words before he penetrated you, then I would agree you were raped. I could’ve sworn you said you finally gave in, and took this as being a verbal OK. I realize from this last post that you physically stopped trying to get away. I apologize.
I don’t however, really see astro denying that date rape exists. The whole convo between you two devolved from an argument that statutory rape is a legal construct which has different standards in different places, and no necessarily hard-and-fast agreed upon morality attached to it.
OTOH, astro can speak for himself, and I’m going home now, but I will chech back in tonight.
This is a tragic and ill-advised discussion, I fear. Zabali_Clawbane obviously suffered a lot of pain and this guy was a first-class asshole. He raped her in the legal sense, but I am ambivalent whether or not he met the legal definition of rape. It’s one of those things, I think, that is impossible to second guess unless you’re there, in the shoes of the victim.
I remember being 13 years old, and things that would have seen obvious to me to do (say, “The HELL WITH YOU” and stalk off) were just incomprehensible to me at that age. Due to many circumstances that I won’t get into, I saw that standing up for myself got me nowhere. So there were times when I was afraid to run away, fight back, because my experience had taught me that it only made things worse if I did.
Perhaps Zabali_Clawbane had that sort of situation. I don’t know. We aren’t her, we don’t know how it felt like to be her. Obviously she’s terrible pain and I think I’m just going to leave this one alone. (But, apparently, not before spouting off a little in this post, of course!) 
Zabali, my good thoughts and prayers go to you and I’m very sorry that you had such a horrible and crappy experience.
MsRobyn That’s part of the irony. Before I dated him, I introduced him to my parents, and they approved. He was a “nice young man”, respectful to his elders, who seemed to geniunely respect and care for me. Dates constituted chaperoned movie or pizza trips if we weren’t hanging out at his house or my house. If we were just “hanging out” (like that evening after his birthday party) neither set of parents felt a chaperone was needed, because usually we had friends with us. Except for that particular evening. My parents thought he’d be nice to me, and not “do me wrong”. His mother loved me, and we got along very well.
I don’t know if you have any more info than the rest of us Jarbabyj, but from her story it sounded more like the guy just pestered her enough that she gave in. Maybe she wasn’t clear enough on what type of pressure the guy was exerting on her, but from what i got that was in no way rape, and yes i believe in date rape and no means no and all that, but once you say yes thats no longer a no. Just like a naked girl on your bed is allowed to change her yes to a no, a no can just as easily change into a yes. I am only talking about the “pressured into sex = rape” part of the equation here by the way, although im not sure if two underage children having sex can be called statutory rape (he was 16 after all, it could be argued she is guilty of statutory rape also if the age of consent in her state is 18). Calling this rape just makes it alot harder for the women who have really been raped, im sure it was a traumatic event and the guy certainly took advantage of you, but thats still a far cry from rape.
Wow. Just, wow. Please don’t tell me that you really think the above-described situation is the only true way a woman can be raped. Because if you really believe that, that’s just fucking scary.
To be fair, I know that sometimes details get lost in the noise, but Zabali also said this:
It sounds to me like his coercion was more than just verbal, but physical, as well. If he had politely walked up to her, spoke only kind words, but held a knife to her throat and she “relented” and laid back and “let him do it,” you’d surely call that rape (at least I hope so!). So he didn’t have a knife, but he had his physical size, ability to lift and carry her and forcefully start removing her clothes. That she chose, at that point, after repeatedly saying no, to just give up fighting with him for fear that his physical intimidation would escalate, that’s still rape.
NO MEANS NO.
He had an obligation to shut the fuck up when she said that. He didn’t.
He had an obligation not to physically pick her up and start carrying her away. He didn’t.
He had an obligation not to start undressing her over her objections. He didn’t.
She clearly felt unable to fight him off of her once it escalated to that point, so she gave up fighting. For G-d’s sake, she was a CHILD. She wasn’t capable of making rational, adult decisions in the first place. But once it became obvious that saying NO wasn’t going to work, she was without physical recourse to force him to stop what he clearly wasn’t going to leave without happening.
The girl was raped.
Please, I beg you to try to understand that. Please.
From my own adolescent experience, it was considered a pretty big social feather in a girl’s cap if she were going out with an older guy.