Astrology Schools- Reasonable Ends or the End of Reason?

In a recent pit thread, Reason Totters On Its Throne: An Accredited Astrology School!, many dopers have decried astronomy schools as the end of reason.

At first, I thought “Of course it is, we all know that astrology is pute bunkum!”, but then I got to thinking. Even if we factor in that astrology is pure bunk (and anyone that disagrees is free to open up a thread debating that- in this thread I’d like to assume that it is), does that astrology schools are a threat to reason?

One of the schools that got accredited is a trade school. It has classes like “Writing the astrological column”. The job of a trade school is, to my understanding, to train people to produce a product or supply a service which people are willing to pay for. Accredidation of a trade school involves making sure that the students will get what they pay for- training in a trade that will reasonably lead to employment.

Now, plenty of suckers out there are willing to pay to have their star charts drawn out. As far as I know, as long as astrologers don’t make too many claims, selling star charts is legal. I think that while astrology is not a valueable science, it is certainly a viable trade. Seems to me that an astronomy trade school is not that outlandish.

After all, we don’t deride beauty school because beauticians don’t actually make their clients more beautiful. Or acting schools because they don’t actually turn the students into Hamlet. Or cooking schools because we all know that home cooked food is better.

The other school I know about it a little trickier. It is called the Kepler College of astrological Arts and Sciences, and it recently opened in Seattle. A Seattle Weekly article describes it.

This school definately sees itself as a place of knowledge, not trade, which is a major difference. But, they seem to have a somewhat reasonable approuch to astrology,

It seems that they view astrology as an important historical practice. They point out quite rightly that for much of history, astrology has had a major influence on almost every sphere of knowledge. The first part of the cirriculum is focused on the history of astrology. They do assignments like “Outline the main philosophical changes that took place in the Renaissance and explain how these affected astrological practice.”

Studying the history of astrology seems somewhat innocuous to me. There are plenty of medieval studies majors out there studying the same thing. We can’t deny that astrology did exist in history, and that there is some benefit to understanding how astrology affected the world of the past.

The college carries a variety of general education courses. These courses are all presented through astrology. In a writing class, essay topic will relate to astrology. In human anatomy class, while they learn about the human body by looking at the historical associations of different planetary objects to different body parts. They leanr statistics through different kinds of astrological calculations. They even apparently learn about the scientific method by looking at failed attempts to prove that astrology is scientific. Many students say that by studying general education through astrology, they are more interested in it and perform better.

And Kepler college does try to promote critical thinking. They present a variety of viewpoints. They do a lot of thinking and considering, but not really a lot of indocternation. Kepler is hardly the BJU of the New Age world.

I don’t see the problem with this, either. In my “serious” college we do plenty of general education classes that work through the filter of something else. We have a writing class that focuses on female madness, where one looks at old ideas about feminine craziness (hysteria and the like) and writes about that. We have Chinese language/culture classes that study that by looking at theories of Eastern medicine. Using one subject, even a subject of dobios value, to look at another subject is a common practice. As long as these kids learn anatomy and writing and Chinese, doesn’t it all work out okay?

Finally, they do learn about celestial movements. Even this is defensable. After all, the angle between star X and star Z is still the same, even if you don’t believe that that has any special signifigance. If it isn’t tied to too many claims about the signifigance of the angles between X and Z, they are learning something. It isn’t really something of value, but it is genuine learning.
I can see some value in the study of astrology, just like I can see value in the study of folklore, pop culture and art history (considering art has long been tied to religion). I don’t see much value, considering it is bunk, but I do see enough value to think that an astrology school isn’t an outlandish insult to reason. I think that anything that can promote knowledge and critical thinking at the same time is a benefit to the world.

And I don’t think these schools should be shunned by the state. When asked about Kepler, the board that granted accreditdation stated “It is not the responsibility, nor should it be, of government to dictate what citizens should study or think.” At first, this seems outlandish, but if you think about it, it is a valid point. We should not use the government to restrict the pursuit of knowledge, even dubious knowledge. I’d rather the decision about what is or is not worth learning in a secondary school situation be left up the the student, not the state.

This is especially relevent to the crusade of one University of California regent to end women’s studies and ethnic studies. He says that these are not real pursuits and should not be taught. He believes that to study the world of war, drinking and general masculiness by reading Hemingway in an American literature class is knowledge, but to study race and gender by reading Angela Davis is not. I say crew him. It is not his job to decide what I should pursue. Our schools should be devoted to the aquisition of knowledge, not the censoring of it.

So whaddaya think?

I think you’re pretty much right, sven. (I also have to confess to having a secret fondness for Kepler College because my own research includes the history of astrology—although emphatically not motivated by any belief in astrology or its validity as a modern science—and they actually communicated with me to find out how to order my advisor’s history of astrology monograph for their courses, which I thought was kind of neat.)

I think people should be allowed to study whatever they want to, provided they are willing to pay for it themselves. If you want to take a class in reading the future in the entrails of goats, that’s okay by me. That doesn’t mean I cannot continue to consider it utter bullshit, or that I cannot be privately amazed when I find out you’ve shelled out your shekels to do so.

I don’t think it sounds outlandish, first, second, third, or last. Speaking personally, I’m rather more worried about the headspace of anyone who finds that quote outlandish than I am of anyone who plans a vacation schedule based on how Mars will be transitting their Venus or whatnot. The latter is only silly; the former is both silly and dangerous.

I suppose it was the implications that struck me (and others) as outlandish. It conjured up visions of the state standing as solidly behind creationism, quackery and pseudo-science as it stands behind “real” educations. It smacks of the kind of post-modern socio/moral relativism (and I say this as a bleeding heart liberal) that drives me up the wall. The government dictating what people learn is one thing, but the government backing everything equally with financial aid, grants, and even recognition is a different thing entirely.

Anyway, I got it all sorted out after a while.

I am surprised my OP is getting this much support after being so hotly spoke of in the Pit.

**
And when did reason ever reign supreme in our society, do they think?

I’m sorry to see it happen, but I’m not the least bit surprised. It doesn’t mean anything has changed.

And I’ll have to say this about the astrologers . . . I’ve never heard of any group of them trying to kill their competitors. I’ve never known any of them to claim that people who don’t believe in astrology will be punished in the afterlife. I’ve never known any of them to demand that the government put “In The Zodiac We Trust” on our money.

Yes, astrology is irrational bunk. But if you want to get worked up over the public acceptance of irrational bunk, there are many targets deserving of much greater indignation than schools of astrology.

I find somewhat depressing that enough people are willing to follow such classes, but as long as that school don’t receive public funding, I see no major issue in it…

BTW, in the USA “accreditation” is NOT granted by the government, but by private entities (usually consortia of schools and/or trade organizations) – which are the ones that MAY (or may not) be recognized by the Dept. of Education as carrying out the business of accrediting schools legitimately.

In the private postsecondary level, some state governments merely license people to start a business called a “school” (No criminal record? Got your Fire Dept. Permits in order? Got insurance? OK, pay the fee, good luck setting up your school). Others may authorize schools to announce they offer a degree or certificate if they can prove they do so, but leave it to the licensing exam board for that particular trade, or the marketplace, to weed out who got any real education/training.

In the case of the Arizona Astrological Institute or whateever is called, as mentioned before its accreditation is as a trade school that trains people, among other things, to write Horoscope columns for newspapers. You actually take a course that you may pass or fail and will be graded upon, and from which you may obtain a marketable skill, in exchange for your tuition. That was proven to the satisfaction of a Tech-schools accrediting body, WHICH IS NOT the same body as accredits Arizona State, or U of Phoenix, but IS recognized by the Dept. of Education as a legit accrediting outfit – and it’s this latter bit that’s news, usually fringe-schools are accredited by bodies with the respectability of the World Wrestling Federation Commissioner :slight_smile:

What is usually called “accredited” for the purposes of Higher Ed in the USA is more properly referred to as “Regionally Accredited”, referring to the consortia of established full-service Universities and High Schools in particular groups of states (such as the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, for the Mid-Atlantic and Puerto Rico) . Those DO seek out evidence of some academic rigor in the courses and professional competence among the faculty.

I don’t know. I hate the idea that this nonsense is given more legitimacy in the public’s eyes.

clairobscur said:

Ah, but that’s just it. One of the articles I saw noted that the accreditation of this school makes the students eligible for government grants and loans.

So, yes, your tax dollars – and mine – could go to training the next set of newspaper astrologers. Yippee.

Well, I certainly wouldn’t want my newspaper astrological columns to be written by amateurs.

David B: *Ah, but that’s just it. One of the articles I saw noted that the accreditation of this school makes the students eligible for government grants and loans.

So, yes, your tax dollars – and mine – could go to training the next set of newspaper astrologers. Yippee.*

Hmmmmm. What worries me a little about this attitude is that I know there are many people who feel equally resentful that their tax dollars go to train students in, say, art school or film school, whose work they sincerely consider fraudulent or an assault upon reason or ethics or otherwise severely harmful to society. I don’t want those attitudes determining who gets subsidies to study something that’s important to them.

I agree that astrology and other pseudosciences should not be deliberately misrepresenting actual scientific evidence to support their claims to truth. But if what they are saying is basically “We think that this is an important field of study that provides useful information and enlightenment about an aspect of reality that is not fully understood by other means,” how does that really differ from the essential justifications for art, music, or various other spiritual or creative activities? Scientific puritanism is not intrinsically a better basis for censorship or denial of support than religious or any other kind of puritanism, IMHO. Support for knowledge is like support for free speech: in order to be really effective in defending the good stuff, you have to be willing to “waste” some valuable resources in defending the worthless crap.

Feel free to quote me from my pit part of this same column. It seemed that I was the only one willing to discuss it.

It doesn’t matter if you agree with it or not. It is a legitmate trade and there are plenty of things that go into it. It is not be a trade like hairdressing or truckdriving but more a trade like bartending. Yes, some bartending schools receive federal financial aid also.

Basically by saying one is against federally funding a certain trade school, one says that the trade isn’t valuable. Again, if there is a trade school for it then there are most likely jobs that can be filled by it as well. No single individual nor group of individuals has the right to say that one can not become a hairdresser, truck driver, bartender, or astrologer and make money at it.

The main issue brought up here is that a lot of you don’t want to spend federal dollars, mostly in the form of Pell Grants (I think the max is about $3700/year now) and Federal Workstudy (FWS, requires matching funds from the schools, Pell Grants do not), where the real issue is since Student Loans have to be repaid. Fine. I see your point, but where in this subjective view do you draw the line? Do you stop funding bartenders? Locksmiths? Gunsmiths? Hairdressers? Florists? (Yes there are some schools that have floristry and flower arranging that receive federal aid.) Telemarketing? (there are a few schools in Kansas, I think that is the right state… maybe it is in the south instead, that offer associates degrees in telemarketing that receive federal aid.) What about in regular college curriculum? You know that fencing class/ bowling class/ etc? They most likely got federally funded yet for most people is considered a hobby nor is it anything that one can viably make money off of for the most part. Astrology school actually has a thriving market (newspapers and periodicals, books, private practice, etc) and jobs available. You can’t say the same for much of the college curriculuum out there one is required to take. How many different jobs do you know of that require a degree in philosphy? Philosophy professor. Anything else?

Regardless if you agree with it or not, astrology is a viable profession. If anything having a standardized school of astrology would limit the market. As, graduates of a trade skill are wanted more than the uneducated. Would you prefer a certified hairstylist cutting your hair or do you prefer just any old bowl atop your head? A trade school adds professionalism to an already viable carreer. It doesn’t mean it is anything other than entertainment though. Hell, acting degrees are just entertainment and they make tons of money. I don’t see how this is really any different. (Many acting trade schools also receive federal aid. As well as 4 year colleges and universities.)

Ok, now let’s assume that Billy Joe Mesmer currently on welfare sucking off whatever the maximum amount of public assistance he can with his four kids and two girlfriends are able to. Billy Joe won’t keep a manual labor job because he has a bad back. But unfortunately manual labor is all that he is qualified to do. So, instead of just lying around all day, Billy Joe hears that the astrology school is open and sees the local astrologers in the area are making decent enough money. Well, Billy Joe talks to them and sees that he is able to do a lot of what they do already since he has always been interested in astrology but never formally trained. He doesn’t really know where to begin or how to get into some type of program. Well, Billy Joe also sees that he could go to college and be able to get some type of desk job but that would be at least 4 years and possibly put him pretty far in debt. Also that means for four years he wouldn’t be able to do much else other than just go to school (not that it really matters in his case). Also, going through a college doesn’t really guaranty that he will get a job afterwards (philosophy major anyone?) although a trade school by definition has to offer placement within the given field they are training. (Accreditation policies differ but it is typically that they have to place 60-80% of their graduates in the field they train in.)

He sees the trade schools offer everything he needs and are significantly shorter time frame. After some basic research he sees that trade schools pretty much get a person a job quickly that pay about what a just out of college with no work experience job would pay but just don’t have all the promotion potential as a college graduate would have. Billy calculates out that he would need X amount of money to support his kids, himself and whichever girlfriend is currently hanging around. Surprisingly it is just a little shy of what he would likely earn as an astrologer but if his girlfriends had a job too and switched off living with him he could make it much easier. It isn’t brain surgery here. Billy Joe goes to the trade school finishes off his certificate instead of going to the four year school. He sees that he isn’t nearly as much in debt and instead of continually leeching off the government he just did it in one lump sum and is now working as an astrologer for a local newspaper. It doesn’t pay great but with some minor help from his girlfriend he manages to make all his bills and get off public assistance. If Billy Joe would have gone to a four year school instead majoring in some viable, lucrative profession, he would still be leeching of the government 3-6 years longer on public assistance. Now since Billy Joe has a means to support himself and his kids (albeit not comfortably) he can spend some of the extra time he has to go to a four year college and get a bachelor’s degree (many hairstylists and bartenders I know support themselves through college that way) so he can increase his earning potential and make his life and his kid’s lives easier.

Would you deprive Billy Joe of this opportunity? You may not agree with what he has learned but the education in particular isn’t really relevant. He has learned a trade, how to work through the field, and is now making money with the trade. It is the same argument for any trade skill. There may be people making money at it who are untrained just as there are in any type of entertainment field (Gary Coleman or Haley Joel Whatever his last name is or any other child star) but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t benefit from any training. (Well that Haley kid is a natural but still training is a good thing.)

HUGS!
Sqrl

I really should have hit the preview bar. Good points Kimstu. I don’t know why restricting a trade of any kind is a good thing.

“I agree that astrology and other pseudosciences should not be deliberately misrepresenting actual scientific evidence…”

Yes the subjectiveness of it all. :slight_smile: I don’t know any astrologers personally who claim that what they do is anything other than entertainment or art. Those that do I would eye suspiciously.

I can’t imagine a trade school that focuses on the business aspect of astrology wouldn’t have some type of ethics thrown into it as well. I.e., scamming people is bad. Don’t do this as it will get you thrown in jail. etc. You are providing a service by producing charts and a short story of what the stars say this person is going to be. Neither the astrologer nor the recipient of this information needs to believe in what it is. Because it is entertainment.(Astrology is like writing a short story using charts for the paragraphs. Example: Aries sun, Taurus moon, Cancer rising… would mean something like there is a person who is a natural leader though their inner desire is focused on the comforts of home and or money. Also, this person is probably stocky with spindly arms or possibly has some type of crablike quality to him/her. If the other houses and such come into play it tells actions of the given story given a virtually limitless amount of options on what the story can be. With just the three main signs of sun, moon and rising there are 12 cubed possibilities. Now for each of the 12 houses, there are something like 11ish possibilities. So basically that can write a fairly interesting story but very general and most likely to apply to a lot of different people.

HUGS!
Sqrl

le·git·i·mate (l-jt-mt)
adj.

  1. Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business.
  2. Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards: legitimate advertising practices.
  3. Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem.
  4. Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint.

Looking at these possible definitions, I’d say astrology is “legitimate” according to #1, but not the others. (One might quibble on #2.) So, is it appropriate to accredit a school teaching any lawful way to make money? My feeling is that some things are immoral, and ought not be accreditied. IMHO astrology is a confidence game, even though it’s not illegal.

Also, it’s anti-edcational. Astrology reduces people’s knowledge (at least their knowledge of reality.) It seems paradoxical to accredit as edudation an anti-educational subject.

Actually I refer to it as a legitimate business. So more of the definitions apply.

  1. Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business.

Yep, that fits. We are in agreement.

  1. Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards: legitimate advertising practices.

Yep that fits too. Astrology has set standards and follows them. However I am talking about business here which I would believe the trade school would also follow, so it still fits.

  1. Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem.

Still talking about business, it fits. The processes used for the end outcome are not really logical but that is irrelevant to astrology as a business. Following the lines of astrology as a business, one would see this still fits becuase it gives skills and shows how the person can get a job in the field. Two steps… following a set pattern. It still fits. Astrology itself seems based on some flawed logic; however, its logical construct is consistent with itself basically. It must be reiterated that I am referring to astrology as a business.

  1. Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint.

Yep, it fits here too. Astrology as a business is authentic and genuine. You can’t really deny that people make a living off of astrology.

“So, is it appropriate to accredit a school teaching any lawful way to make money? My feeling is that some things are immoral, and ought not be accreditied.”

Why not? Just because you don’t agree with it or believe in it doesn’t mean other people have the same opinion as you. Is there a reason why one should be restricted by your beliefs? Nope, nor should anyone be restricted by my beliefs either. I personally wouldn’t want some one to tell me I couldn’t get an education in philosophy (heheh some people may think I am an anti-philosophist by all my references to it) or bartending but I would rather have those options open to me than not.

“IMHO astrology is a confidence game, even though it’s not illegal.”

Your opinions are welcome; however, I view astrology as a form of entertainment. It is not a confidence game at all. It is not asking you to believe in it. It has a definate product that you can choose to apply to yourself or not. If you don’t like it don’t participate in it. Easy enough.

HUGS!
Sqrl

Hell, I can teach people how to write a newspaper astrology column within the bounds of this past, and I won’t even charge you for it.

  1. Type out 365 two- or three-sentence paragraphs vaguely describing some combination of personal traits and potential daily occurrences.

  2. Print them out and make 12 photocopies of each.

  3. Toss them all into a large hat.

  4. Each day, draw 12 out of the hat. If you get a duplicate on any given day, put it back and draw another.

  5. Match each with a Zodiac sign in whatever order you please.

  6. Repeat steps 4 and 5 until hat is empty.

PLD, you and I both know that there is more to astrology than that. Granted it will probably be about as accurate as your method. Do you know who to talk to in order to get an interview at a newspaper for an astrology column? How about some publishers of astrology books that will take in people who basically haven’t made a name for themselves? How about how to make a pretty start chart based on a specific birthday that should be reasonably similar to another trained astrologers star chart with a similar story as the result? Do you know where to advertise and sell your astrology skills? I am sure there are many other places than just those that are mentioned. Again, you may not agree with it but it doesn’t impact the premise that astrology is a business, a legal business, a multi-million dollar business, and has been around for quite some time.

HUGS!
Sqrl

I don’t think this one holds water. Astrologists often disagree among themselves over proceedures & intertrepations, and many (most?) times do not arrive at the same conclusions when presented with the same starting data (date & place of birth). I would assert that many “professional” astrologers are not “in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards” until such time as I can visit a hundred (or even ten) astrologists and get the same reading time after time.

even sven said:

This might be more useful if the level of performance by astrologers and the like were not so abysmal anyway. For example: using the way the stars influence various body parts to study anatomy? Well, I’m not that versed in astrology per se, but I don’t think it works that way. I don’t think there are any cases of astrologers connecting the Seventh House of Abigon to the spleen, or how Mars in Casseopeia might cleanse the renal system. However, there are psychic/paranormal/new age type systems that do propose bodily influence - iridology, reflexology, chiropractic [sic], etc. These systems nominally chart real anatomical parts, but insert all sorts of non-medically justified claims and connections. Or worse, there are systems like chi that talk about chakras and energy pathways that are wholely undocumented and bear no relation to real anatomy. It seems to me these types of things would be taught intertwined with the real anatomy/biology, which would definitely offer a skewed view of real science.

Similarly, a review of statistical analysis of most psychic and astrology believers and they are rife with errors, improper manipulations, and misunderstanding if not outright misrepresentation and fraud. Perhaps this school would be a way to make those better, but I have the sense that if the students are taught by the current crop of astrologers, they won’t learn how to do statistics correctly.

SqrlCub said:

Well, you obviously don’t know many astrologers or psychics. There are plenty out there that believe what they are doing is real, that it is not merely entertainment or art but that it actually has some mystical connection to people’s lives and that their readings are really pulling out metaphysical points that are truly insightful. Perhaps I’m looking more at psychics than astrologers per se, but look at the highly public top psychics and see if any of them have a disclaimer with their readings “This is only for entertainment purposes and should not be taken seriously.” Say John Edward, or Sylvia Browne, or the like. Even “Miss Cleo”. I have read that the “assistants” that actually answer the calls to the hotline are told that at the end of the lengthy toll call they are to say goodbye by including a disclaimer along those lines. Funny the disclaimer comes at the end. And note that many of the operators don’t, because it really feels scammy to them to go through a lenthy call designed to keep the person on the line as long as possible only to then say, “Oh, by the way, don’t take any of this seriously.”
Miss Cleo story

While it is true that many newspaper and magazine astrology columns carry a disclaimer of the sort, that is mostly the newspaper doing that despite the astrologer, and this is mainly because of pressure from CSICOP. The astrologers who do carry these disclaimers adamantly deny they are applicable, and merely view them as a necessary evil.

This is not to say you don’t have some good points, merely pointing out where your argument is weak/invalid.