At what point did you give up your dream?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I need advice.
Backstory, you don’t really have to read it but I want to explain why this is difficult for me:

[Spoiler]I grew up super poor (I think I’ve said that on here before).I am the youngest of 4 girls, and my mother told us that if we ever wanted to attend college we needed to get good grades and scholarships. So I spent my childhood focusing on school and attaining as much knowledge as possible.
My biological father was abusive, and my mom had fled with us girls in the middle of the night to her sister’s house. She spent the next decade working her ass off to take care of us. She gave up her dreams, which led to a lot of unhappiness for her later on. When I was 12, my grandmother died. It hit my mom really hard. She’d just started menopause as well, and is bipolar (unmedicated).
From there my life went completely downhill. She started drinking a lot, and decided she didn’t want to be a ‘mom’ anymore. My sisters had moved out of the house, so I was the only one left to deal with. She started having me drive her (yes, I was 12) to the ocean to pick up men at the bar. I’d then sit in her car while she’d have sex with them in their car next to me (so I could intervene if they got too rough), and then drive her home while she drunkenly slept in the back. I got a full time job under the table to pay the bills because she quit her job and was too high to do anything all day.
I became pretty bitter towards my mom, and by the time I was 16 our relationship had become so strained she decided to skip town and go live in a trailer in the woods. I became homeless as a result.
At that point I’d still managed to keep a 4.0 GPA, but my focus had shifted to where I would sleep that night, and where I’d find something to eat. Scholarships were no longer a priority. I spent the next few years in survival mode, sleeping under bridges and in the woods outside of town, depending on school lunches to sustain me.
Two weeks after I turned 18, I got married to my boyfriend and he joined the USMC so that we would have somewhere to live. I know now that it was more out of desperation than affection, though at the time we thought we were in love. After his first deployment he was diagnosed with PTSD, which led to a relationship of extreme abuse. He wouldn’t even allow me to leave the house, so going to college at that time was out of the question. I was with him for a number of years before I was able to flee back to my hometown.

I started going to college, got a job, was in a decent relationship. I was happy for less than a year before I got into a serious car accident and broke my neck. From there I was on temporary disability, living in (basically) a shack with 3 other people. Because of the head trauma and the injuries I sustained, I failed that quarter of college and they put me on academic probation - no student loans or government assistance allowed until I personally paid for college and raised by GPA back up.

It’s been 3 years since the accident. I have since healed from my injuries, am working, have a wonderful partner, etc. (As a further side note, I have also patched the relationship with my mother, and she is now a very supportive person in my life.) [/SPOILER]

I want to return to school, but we live on a strict budget already. I am not adverse to hard work - I am fully capable of working full time and going to school full time. That was the plan, in fact, but I can barely pay my bills on my salary, let alone pay for college courses on top of it until I raise my GPA. I am currently taking mock-classes online to prep me for full time college courses for the degree, but they’re not worth credit.

As well as this, the degree I am passionate about is Astrophysics. I am already 25; I know that’s young but most astrophysicists already have their degree by now. It’s also an extremely competitive field. I wouldn’t get out of college until I was in my early 30’s. Am I aiming too high?
My partner is 10 years older than me, and he said he went through something similar. At one point he had to tell himself that his goals were unrealistic, and settled to become a truck driver. He enjoys his job, but it was not what he wanted to do his entire life (and he has now accepted it as his lifetime career). It breaks my heart. When things were really bad, I kept myself going by daydreaming about the great things I would do - the discoveries I would make and how I would contribute to the scientific community. I know it wouldn’t be the end of the world - I can still be happy even if I am not an Astrophysicist. At least, that’s what I tell myself.
The truth is that I feel as though I’ve climbed an entire fucking mountain just to realize that I’m still only at the base camp.

Is it bad to want to achieve greatness? Is that naive? At what point do people decide their dreams are unrealistic? My family keeps suggesting that I get a ‘temporary’ career but that will only take me longer to reach the career I want. I don’t know what to do anymore. I feel like I’m having a pity party and just need to accept the reality that I am insignificant. Become a welder and go work in the ship yard or something (nothing wrong with this career, it’s just not what I want).
This isn’t a plea for pity. I am wondering if any of you have experienced this moment in your life and how you accepted/overcame it.

2

Try to hang on for a little while longer and see if you regain some optimism. Try not to think about the future when if feels like life is against you, those are the times that i put on “blinders” and put one foot in front of the other.

You have accomplished/overcome a lot… so don’t give up yet.

3

Don’t give up.
At least finish the semester, before you decide.

4

I expect that if you look you will find that a huge number of the people who have gotten degrees in astrophysics have not been able to get research jobs in the field: that there have been large cutbacks in scientific research and that tenure-track academic jobs are in close to a a depression. Find a forum where these people hang out and ask.

5

If your goal is “do X before you’re 30,” give up.
If your goal is “do X,” keep going.

Talk to the school about your situation. There will be someone there who sees the combination of drive and heartrending backstory, and finds a way to help. Something I learned (too late): you have to tell them up front that you need money, and that you can’t continue without it. You’re willing to work for it, but you need access to it. Talk to department chairs and counsellors: someone will find a way to help.

Your family and your partner might not really want you to succeed. If you give up, it validates their decisions to give up. If you succeed, it makes them feel like they should have kept going. In other words, they are probably nice people but take a clinical look at their advice and see where it’s coming from.

6

It is really, really hard to have a career in astrophysics even if you have everything going right for you-- even the most brilliant up-and-coming young people with all the right prestigious awards and publications in all the right journals have difficulty getting decent jobs. The most realistic career outlook at this point, even for the best and brightest, is 7-10 years to get a Ph.D. (getting paid $20k per year, best case, and being expected to put a substantial amount of your discretionary income towards furthering your career, like conference presentations and so forth), and then a string of adjunct or one or two-year temporary positions which pay anything from less than minimum wage up to maybe $45k per year, where you’re expected to move cross-country or internationally every 1-2 years.

If you live and breathe astrophysics, if you excel in your classes, especially math, and go above and beyond them doing research, if you find the process of the work interesting and fulfilling, and you’re willing to put your career before absolutely everything else, then by all means go for it. But academics is turning into a pretty awful life for everyone except the top few.

I can’t underscore enough how brutal the path to even a Ph.D. might be. During the tough times, it’s the love of the work or the need to find answers to burning questions that will get you through, not the desire for achievements or some other end goal. If you’re mostly interested in astrophysics because you dream of your own greatness, that won’t get you very far.

On the other hand, there are still ways to do astrophysics even if you don’t (or can’t) go the Ph.D. -> research scientist route. There’s one citizen science initiative that I’m familiar with called Planet Hunters, and some of the volunteers have already made important discoveries. Maybe there are more initiatives like that out there.

7

Yes, this is one of the reasons I’ve reached this point. I know how competitive it is, I know that once someone gets a career in this field it’s for life, so there aren’t usually openings. I have talked to professors and been in contact with people in the field and it’s looking more and more bleak, especially considering I have barely even started. It’s not that I want to complete it before I’m 30. It’s that I understand how competitive it is and I know that a lot of people are nearing completion of college at my age.
I have gone to the counselors at my college, told them why I’m struggling. I ended up crying in their office (which was very embarrassing). They said that they cannot do anything until I pay for at least one quarter on my own, but that in itself is near impossible. I go to a community college and still it is too expensive for my income. I cannot take out a personal loan, I already applied for one. There seem to be no proper routes to get where I want to be other than to wait even longer to slowly save up the funds.

[Quote=F.Pu-du-he-pa-as]
If you live and breathe astrophysics, if you excel in your classes, especially math, and go above and beyond them doing research, if you find the process of the work interesting and fulfilling, and you’re willing to put your career before absolutely everything else, then by all means go for it. But academics is turning into a pretty awful life for everyone except the top few.
[/Quote]

I think a lot of me is still in survival mode. I am absolutely TERRIFIED of the idea of homelessness again. I have become very money-driven as a result, which is why I’m working and hesitating on going back to school. I would have to take out student loans on top of it, which will put in deep in debt by the time I’m finished. All of my friends that have attended college have regrets about it. None of them are actually in a career associated with their degree. This, also, frightens me. Why put so much time and effort into something if I am not sure I’ll succeed at it? If I knew I’d get work after, I’d do it no matter how hard it was. But I’m not sure.

[Quote=F.Pu-du-he-pa-as]
On the other hand, there are still ways to do astrophysics even if you don’t (or can’t) go the Ph.D. -> research scientist route. There’s one citizen science initiative that I’m familiar with called Planet Hunters, and some of the volunteers have already made important discoveries. Maybe there are more initiatives like that out there.
[/quote]

Thank you. I’ll look into these!

8

I have no advice for the OP, 'cause I’m still a dreamer at 34, but I don’t get why astrophysics is such a tough field. I thought that would fall squarely in the STEM camp, which is where they say it’s at. Why’s it so hard to get a job in astrophysics?

9

When people get a career in Astrophysics it’s for life - so unless someone dies it’s pretty hard to get a foot in the door unless your qualifications are stellar. Also, as F.Pu-du-he-pa-as said,

[Quote=F.Pu-du-he-pa-as]
The most realistic career outlook at this point, even for the best and brightest, is 7-10 years to get a Ph.D. (getting paid $20k per year, best case, and being expected to put a substantial amount of your discretionary income towards furthering your career, like conference presentations and so forth), and then a string of adjunct or one or two-year temporary positions which pay anything from less than minimum wage up to maybe $45k per year, where you’re expected to move cross-country or internationally every 1-2 years.
[/Quote]

10

Is the field just not growing, then? It seems like lots of jobs are “for life.” Doctors? Why is this science field stagnant?

11

Renee:

This is not uncommon in STEM fields. There isn’t enough funding to produce more jobs in the field, regardless of its importance. It is getting better IMHO, but slowly.

12

What is it about astrophysics that you like?

If you want to go into a tough field, you need to know that field like the back of your hand. You need to know every employer- every last one. Know what their career ladders look like. Know which entry level positions lead to which mid-level positions. Know every city that the industry exists in, and which companies work there. Get to know a few dozen people that are a couple steps ahead of your career-wise, and know what they do to get ahead, and what has caused people to stumble. Understand all of the sub-specializations: not just research, but things like project management, grant writing, budgeting, communications, etc. Most jobs aren’t doing the sexy work, but there may be some functional work that happens to float your boat.

Spend a lot of time on LinkedIn reading people’s career paths and understanding what tends to lead to what. In a small industry, it will quickly become clear. Compile a list of every employer in the industry and chekc their jbos page once a month or so, to get an understanding of what tends to come up and how often. Attend any career fairs and industry events that you can, and get to know as many people as possible.

If you do that, you’ll naturally know your chances and can probably figure out a path to somewhere you’ll be happy. If you don’t understand the industry, however, you don’t stand much of a chance. People who succeed in tough fields are people who understand every rung of the ladder.

If you don’t live in a city where this industry exists, your first step is going to have to be to move hell and high water to get to one. Proximity counts for a lot.

13

There’s a big factor you haven’t mentioned: children. Do the two of you intend to have children and if so, how many? I know it sounds crass, but as a woman you do have a biologic clock and it is ticking.

The good news is that even if you give up your dream of a career, amateur astronomers can and do make significant discoveries.

14

35 is a solid decade away. Goodness. It’s worth thinking ahead, but simply having female plumbing isn’t a good enough reason to give up your dream at 25. Even if she doesn’t finish school until 30, she has a chunk of time to get established before this is a huge worry.

15

I accepted it and overcame it. Wanting to achieve greatness is fine, but thinking your only path to happiness and fulfillment is achieving greatness generally leads to misery - that’s what my particular experience in life has lead me to believe, YMMV.

I see people as enslaved by their need to feel something other than insignificant. I am not saying that is an ideal way to think or be for everyone, but I think dreams and aspirations of this sort prevent people from living a real life.

16

in a manner of speaking :cool:

17

Ask yourself, “Why do I want this?” Will it truly make my life better or am I doing it because I want recognition or illusions of grandeur?" I don’t mean that in a pejorative sense. I see this all the time with my colleagues–late 40s early 50s, deciding to go for their doctorate. When I ask them why, they say because they want to be called Doctor, and that’s fine as long as you understand what’s involved in getting there along with a full time job and a family, but in our area of expertise they need to realize it won’t improve their livelihood–just their self esteem. Sometimes that is a good goal, but given what you went through why not try for a degree that you can actually improve your life with–like an Aerospace Engineering degree? You can still contribute to making those discoveries, but your job market at the Bachelor’s degree level opens up and you can actually make progress toward improving your life.

From what I read, I have no doubt you can get a degree–you have the drive to survive. The issue is, I’m not all that sure of the job market for astrophysicists at the bachelor’s degree level. I’d hate for you to go through this and then be depressed because you couldn’t find a job. Its not about giving up on your dream, its about figuring out what your core dream is and getting there in the most pleasant manner.

18

about 5 seconds after I got married? yeah well.

Probably back in 2000. Depression sat in…

Not that I really had a dream past the first marriage date

One dream of mine, to have grandchildren to spoil is squashed since the son decided to get one of them cut off your fishy line to prevent children to be born to him! If I had known that I would have had at least another kid

So therefore I am looking to adopt grandchildren but retain the right to return them on occasion when they act up!

19

That’s an excellent question that probably deserves a more expansive answer than this short response, but in a nutshell, when people say that the “STEM fields” are short of qualified workers, what they really mean is that certain narrow technical fields such as computing have continuous high demand, some fields like bioscience research and aerospace engineering have transitory demand, and many fields, especially those pertaining directly to health or infrastructure, have a constant demand in which there are never quite enough workers to fill every role. Another thing they mean is that while the US is producing the bulk of STEM-trained workers, a majority of those with advanced degrees are foreign workers. The lack of prestige, career path, and the frequent off-shoring of skilled technical work has resulted in American students either not pursuing degrees in STEM areas or moving into more lucrative non-technical roles after a few years in the technical workforce. The result is that there are actually plenty of STEM workers available; it’s just that most of them are H-1B workers or perform work outside the US, especially in fields like electronics, software, and automotive. The most lucrative and prestigious technical jobs in the US today are in the “softer” fields like data analytics, in which the product is a service rather than a technology.

There is, of course, still a lot of technology research that is being done in the US, and it is still arguably the leader in the applied sciences, which is why so many countries send their brightest students to US research universities, but even that reputation is slipping as schools in Asia become substantially endowed with research money and gain in status. Essentially the same thing is happening to the US as happened to Europe between the 1930s and 1960s; researchers and promising students are being driven away by a stagnating research culture, lack of opportunities, and general lack of progress in American research institutions. There are a number of reasons for this, but chief among them is that since the end of the Cold War the amount of government funding for research, and especially pure or speculative research such as particle physics, controlled nuclear fusion and space sciences, has diminished significantly. Under the threat of Soviet dominance in sciences (and despite their problems with manufacturing quality control and the dogma of Marxism, the Soviet Union produced some very excellent scientists in a variety of fields) the US invested in a large amount of research with a very low expectation of near-term return on investment in the hope of either having bragging rights or some kind of novel technology that would lead to the next generation of superweapons, just as the researches in the early Twentieth century led to nuclear weapons, satellite surveillance, and laser-guided bombs. Today, that kind of funding for pure research is but a small fraction of the peak in the 'Eighties, and there is no expectation it will return to prior levels without some kind of external impetus.

The beginning of the end for that era was apparent in the cancellation of the Superconducting Supercollider (SSC), which would have been almost twice as powerful as the current upgraded Large Hadron Collider (LHC), and if completed on schedule would have been operating a decade before the LHC. Note that this isn’t just about the prestige of discovering new exotic particles like the Higgs boson; it is also about creating high paying skilled jobs, bringing large numbers of foreign investment, and of course all of the innovations in the storage and processing of large data sets and making the data available to researchers distributed geographically around the globe. CERN (the multinational research laboratory that operated the LHC) has become the center of not only high energy physics research but also development of cutting edge computing technologies; you know, all that wonderful data mining and munging technology that makes Google and other data aggregators go. Instead, we’ve ceded the field. With the Tevatron now shut down (despite the fact that it was still doing useful science) the only large particle collider still operating is the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider at Brookhaven, and while it is also doing useful work it is nowhere on the scale of CERN or what the SSC would have been. I will admit, here, of having a personal axe to grind; the closure of the SSC resulted in a massive and immediate dearth of jobs in high energy physics which made it clear that the opportunities in physics would be ferociously competitive, causing me to switch majors. This was probably a good practical move for a number of reasons, but it was my dream to work in high energy physics.

Back to the o.p., I would join in with the number of voices cautioning that you will likely not achieve financial stability for a long time (if ever) and the odds of contributing a discovery of lasting significance is probably worse than winning the lottery. If you really want to pursue this and be satisfied in it, you can’t just be passionate; you need to be obsessive to the point of sacrifice and hardship. You may be fortunate, with enough hard work, connections, and brilliance, to obtain good-paying research fellowships, post-doctoral positions, and a good tenure track position that doesn’t require too much politicking, but I wouldn’t bet on it. You will most likely be competing with equally bright students for research opportunities that may not be what you want to work on and with no guarantee of a publication-worthy thesis. Post-doc positions are sparse, and even assistant professorships are even harder to find as the field contracts and already tenured profs wait out their career twilight through to retirement. I don’t mean to be discouraging, but if you want to pursue a job in this field it needs to be because you really love the work to the exclusion of any luxuries, not because you have a dream of being celebrated for discovering a new principle in stellar mechanics or solve the mystery of the missing dark matter. Of course, the skills you learn in researching this field have technical applicability to other areas, but the time spent in grad school doing research is not credited by employers as indicative of how you would work in financial or data research industries. If you’re not really obsessive about the field, you may be better working in different technical field that is more applied and playing around with astrophysics as a hobby, insofar as that is possible given the enormous dedication of time and access to research facilities and information. That hasn’t really worked out for me–I have a pile of textbooks and an ever increasing list of technical papers that I’ll get to working through “someday” (I spent the better part of two years just getting through Tony Zee’s Quantum Field Theory in a Nutshell and still can’t claim to have mastered the material he presented)–but at least it gives some relief from having to endure the more mundane aspects of an applied technical position (e.g. endless phone conferences, worthless presentation decks, configuration change boards, et cetera).

Whatever path you choose, the best of luck to you.

Stranger

20

She’s mentioned that her partner is a decade older and I’m told that male sperm deteriorates after about 40.

Perhaps not. I have seen many women say that they too said this this only to find that their fertility has plummeted.

This is probably something on which the OP’s doctor can best advise her.