If agnostics are allowed to play, I’ll add my $0.02:
I am very patriotic, and have several flags. As tdn said, religion and patriotism are completely separate things to me. I definitely prefer that our flag be in proper condition, displayed according to the U.S. Code, etc., because I respect the symbol for what it means to me (and I do make a distinction between “respect” and “reverence”). If my neighbor wants to fly a tattered flag I probably won’t like it, but I’d never impose my feelings about it on someone else. Also, because I do feel that our flag can be a powerful symbol, I absolutely believe that flag burning (in protest) should be Constitutional and legal.
FWIW, I found nothing about Wee Bairn’s post to be out of line: it was a direct reply to questions posed by the OP, and there was nothing stupid or sarcastic about it. Freedom includes the freedom to think that patriotism and our flag are stupid.
And please, people - I’m asking for opnions - including those which do and do not understand or appreciate patriotism. I don’t see Wee Bairn’s post as having been deliberately provocative - it just looks to me to be a succinct way to describe what is (in the view of that member) a mundane piece of cloth.
Don’t mean to tread on anyone’s toes, particularly. When I was a kid in the Eighties I learned (rightly or wrongly) to associate the Union Jack with racism (e.g the film ‘Made in Britain’).
And then in the Nineties flags seemed to be ‘reclaimed’ for use in family-friendly football support (for all the good it did…).
But I have nothing against patriotism (up to a point) or football (when LUFC were in t’ top flight), but our national flags have for me been tainted by past associations.
You would rather have shit all over your ass and legs, then use a piece of cloth? I don’t hold that cloth in any regard, you do. We differ on that. That’s what makes America great, I can have that opinion and not be beheaded, right?
I said I repsect your view, you don’t respect mine. Fine. And this thread is not titled “share your views on why you love the American flag” is it? So i’m not threadshitting, I’m answering the OP honestly. 300 million Americans, you think I’m the only one with this view?
Do you think the phrasing in what you originally said may offend one or two people? Whether or not you have the right to say it, do you think it may offend someone somewhere? I’m not saying you’d spit on a soldier coming back from war defending your right to shit in the flag, but your views were at the very least mildly offensive to some.
I don’t want this fight to dominate the thread, but I think the arse-wiping issue has some merit - other than some kind of metaphysical explanation, why does it matter if Wee Bairn wipes his/her arse (privately, safely out of view and without the knowledge of any other human) on a piece of cloth that has been printed purposely with a specific pattern? Why does it matter?
My atheism doesn’t have anything to do with how I feel about my country, or its symbols. I suppose that a certain skepticism underlies both; I can live with that.
I don’t feel reverence for the flag, but I respect it as a symbol. There are cultural and intellectual underpinnings to this country that I find extremely attractive, and worthy of defending. All the more so when I look at much of the rest of the world. I embrace the idea that the flag is a symbol for something abstract and complex, and that people can use it to express their feelings toward the country, pro or con. It’s not very precise communication, but at least it’s something.
I have never been moved to anything like flag burning. I treat the flag with respect, because I respect what I believe it symbolizes. I’d probably never burn a flag, because if the country got so messed up that I would want to do it, it would probably be so messed up that I’d be shot for doing it.
Exactly- I wouldn’t do this at the Vietnam Memorial. The idea that someone would be pissed off at the idea of me doing this in private boggles the mind. If you get upset at the personal opinion of someone you don’t know on a message board, well I think that’s silly too. What about using the flag as a tourniquet to save your life? I guess you wouldn’t do that either.
Again, read the thread title, and the expressed purpose of the thread starter. You don’t like my views, don’t open this thread again. Simple.
Unlike god, countries exist. I’m ambivalent towards mine. While I disagree with many U.S. policies and can’t stand the current administration, I like living in the U.S. and I generally like Americans. If this country were attacked, I’d support going after the attackers by any prudent means neccessary, morality be damned. I supported the war in Afghanistan. I don’t like it when some foreigner insults the country–insult GWB all you want though–even when there’s some truth to the insult. I have complaints about my mother, but if you make fun of her I’ll be pissed.
I agree about the flag, though. It’s useful to have a visible symbol of the country to hang on embassies, goverenment buildings, ships, or to paint on aircraft. But the amount of fetishism that is attached to it seems bizarre to me. However when I see someone burn the flag, the only message it sends is “I am an idiot.”
As an atheist, I generally respect the flag because it’s the civil thing to do, not because I see the flag as imbued with any talismanic significance. But I would consider myself to be to some degree antinationalistic, and flag-waving, for me, has become unfortunately tainted by its nationalistic and even warlike associations. People who fly the flag are more apt to be feeling “support our troops” than they are “I’m proud of my nation’s leadership in the biomedical sciences.”
The answer lay within…Bolding mine, Wee Bairn he/she would have to do it in private, because the flag has value. And he/she understands that. The crux of the matter lay with the people who think Wee Bairn is an idiot by wiping the arse with the flag, AND with the people who are against said argument. That is the feeling you are getting at Mangetout.
And I believe it lies in the fact that the flag stands for the tribulations this country, or any country goes through to protect it’s civil liberties anf it’s very soil people live on. That emotion has value, and that value has a symbol, and to many it is embodied in the flag. Therefore Wee Bairn expressing his/her opinions about shitting on this said symbol will undoubtedly offend many…if not the majority of Americans or {insert country here}…
Well, there would be no reason to wipe your ass with a flag in public, unless your sole purpose is to piss people off, which is not my aim, here or elsewhere. I agree that many people don’t share my views, but that doesn’t change them, and while I’m not going to force my anti-patriot views on anyone, I’m not going to hide them if asked, either.
I have this view, but I’m not zealot about it- I wouldn’t take part in flag burning demonstration or anything like that, but I don’t have a problem with others doing so. And again, I wouldn’t go to Arlington National and make snarky comments or anything like that- I respect other people’s beliefs and customs, even if I don’t share them.
And for the record, if camping and had diarrhea and the choices were the flag and a nice fluffy roll of Charmin, I would use the Charmin.
It’s my opinion that anyone who would be offended by someone shitting on the flag – either literally or figuratively – doesn’t really understand what it means to be an American. I find that more offensive than anything that could possibly be done to a flag.
Agree, this is why many assume that hardcore patriots are hardcore Chrisitians, becasue both often share the trait of being less than tolerant of differing views.
And again, I wasn’t implying shitting on the flag just for shits and giggles, I meant out of necessity it wouldn’t cross my mind to do so.
I’m an atheist. I pretty much agree with Wee Bairn. I mean, if I was alone and needed to wipe my ass, yea, I’d use the flag if it was the only thing available. And when I threw it away, I’d hide it under some other trash so (hopefully) no one would see it covered in shit, because I wouldn’t be doing it to offend. It’s really just a piece of fabric to me. I understand it’s more than that to some people, and that’s okay with me; I mean, yes, I actually do think it’s dumb, but I don’t normally say so. I only say so here because my opinion was asked for. I don’t go around telling people they are stupid for being patriotic.
It’s just something I don’t get. I’m not a patriotic person, and I don’t understand people who are. I was just born here. If I had been born somewhere else, would that be “the best country”? I don’t actually think America is the best country. I mean, it’s okay, but we have a lot of problems here too. I don’t hate America, I just don’t love it as a symbol of. . .what? I don’t even know. Freedom? Other countries have freedom too. I don’t know. I guess I’m just missing the patriotism gene.