And also, the idea that among patriots, Patriot A would look down on Patriot B becasue he got one aspect of the flag disposal technique wrong, and is now met with scorn, is really really obsessive.
<snort!>
Folks, this is not the Pit. (Yet.) If you feel the need to reply in a Pit-worthy manner, you know where it is.
No warnings. (Yet.) Just stay under control, please.
I think it is a symbol that has been elevated to some sort of fabricy sainthood. The disproportionate concern about the flag, who waves it, who is more American because of it, and all the rest, has completely overshadowed the fact that we are SUPPOSED to tell our government when we’re dissatisfied with the way they’re running things. Burning the flag as a symbolic “mirroring” of the government’s missteps is a perfectly fine way to protest.
Personally, I’d like to see everyone fly their flags upside down on Flag Day, in symbolic protest of a government that has put our nation in distress. However, I don’t think my idea would take off because all the flag freaks would be so upset about the widdle fwag being diswespected.
My husband flies an American flag and a POW flag. He’s a combat vet and is entitled to his form of expression. I can live without it.
Atheist here. I didn’t see Wee Bairn’s statement as inflammatory at all, which I suppose is indicative of my take on the question (and the fact that others did find it inflammatory is also interesting). I don’t really understand the fetishism involved with the American flag. I understand respect for symbols and all that but the proper use and disposal and all that just sounds like medieval relic worship to me. Some military people especially seem to have transferred some of themselves to the thing, so mistreatment of the piece of cloth is a personal affront; the complaints you hear reflect that-- they aren’t upset about mistreatment of the flag as a piece of cloth, they’re upset about someone disrespecting them and their vocation, via this totem. There’s something definitely religious about it in my view. And I guess I don’t understand why American Protestant Christians, in particular, have transferred the old Saint and relic treatment to the flag, as if it has feelings or has supernatural powers or is metaphysically tied to its signified. It’s so 14th-century.
When I was a child, I never understood the importance placed on the flag. My family and I emigrated from England to the US when I was very young, which may account for some of this. I couldn’t understand why I had to pledge my allegiance to the flag, rather than the United States itself. In some ways, I still don’t.
I love and respect America, and I’m proud to be an American citizen. One of my most treasured possessions is the pair of flags I was given when I was naturalized (the other one was Pennsylvania’s). I also learned the protocols for displaying and disposing of flags when I was in the Girl Scouts. On the other hand, to me, the flag is ultimately, still, a piece of cloth. What reverence should I show to the flags flying outside a used car dealership on the Fourth of July? I suspect they’re a marketing ploy or, at best, a response to society’s expectations rather than a genuine display of patriotism. I wouldn’t burn an American flag in protest unless I was extremely provoked; on the other hand, what of the American flags in the ads for Bob’s Discount House in the Sunday paper? For that matter, I’m also quite proud to be British. Should I take offense at the Union Jack turning into a butterfly or being blown away on the ads for BBC America? I suspect Americans would find it offensive if that were done to the Stars and Stripes.
I’ve become quite American in many ways over the years, and I’m an unabashed Christian, but I still don’t fully understand the reverence some Americans have for the flag. For the country itself and the ideas it was founded on, yes. For the flag itself, I’m afraid not.
Would you mind elaborating…
I’m not a religious man, I’ve been called a dirt worshipping tree hugger more than once, that being said, my patriotism isn’t embodied in a tangible piece of fabric either. It’s in an ideal I hold in my mind about my country. Not a metaphysical belief at all, but a feeling I get when I think about the country where I reside and call home.
Bingo. It’s not the cloth that’s superior, it’s what it represents. A flag upside-down is an insult to America, not the cloth. Since I’m integrated deeply with America, it’s an insult to me. You insulted me and now I’m angry.
When I flip you the bird, isn’t that a symbol? When I say “Fuck you”, it isn’t even a sensical sentence but it sure is insulting, isn’t it? There’s symbolism in everything- the alphabet, gestures, body posture, etc. I don’t see how you can claim that a flag’s likewise significance is somehow invalid or “Saint and relic treatment” unless you can brush off “Your mother’s a whore” as “Meh, they’re words that are just symbols.”
I have no idea why you think it’s American Protestant Christians that hold the flag in some higher regard. First, that’s idolatry, we don’t do that. Second, other Americans apparently feel that way too. Thirdly, this sanctity of colors isn’t limited to Old Glory. Iraq, I know firsthand, is proud of their flag just like we are.
Interesting anecdote: I took a flag off the flag pole, folded it, and put it in its box. I put the box on the floor next to me. One of my officers said “How can you disrespect the flag like that, putting it on the floor?” He thought it was on the floor, I thought it was in a box. Sometimes people’s interpretations can vary on smaller scales that wiping one’s ass.
The American flag represents America, so having respect for the flag shows respect for the nation. It matters to me if he, or anyone, wipes his rear on the American flag because it seems like it’s a sign of disrespect to the United States. If you love the country, you respect its symbols.
Those are things one person does directly to another. Just as the flag is not the nation, the flag is not you. Your investment of a great deal of emotion does not make it so.
Superior to what?
When you refer to a flag upside down, do you mean on purpose to mock the country, or a person who made an honest mistake? In case A I can I guess see you anger, but in Case B, an honest mistake by a fellow patriot would anger you? A middle finger by someone who doesn’t know it means fuck you would anger you?
Yeah, what she said. Honestly, I find the flag code bizarre, and I see what the OP is getting at by suggesting there’s a quasi-religious aspect to it.
Are you having me on? Why in the world do you care if someone you don’t know does not respect America?
<slightHijack>
It seems to me that “patriotism” and “crazed nationalism” aren’t nearly so disparate as you might believe. Both entail love and commitment to one’s country. In the case of “crazed” nationalism, the love of patriotism has simply been corrupted into unwavering devotion for a cynical, orchestrated purpose. Just sayin’ is all…
</slightHijack>
Anyhoo, as an atheist I have no particular love for patriotism or the flag. I think the more willing you are to emotionally invest yourself in an idealized version of your country (and what it “stands for”), the more willing you’ll be to overlook its flaws. I’ll also echo the comments from an earlier poster and say that I didn’t really care much one way or the other until appreciation of the flag once again became some sort of bizarre partisan wedge issue.
Captain Amazing, change “If you love the country, you respect its symbols” to “If you have basic respect for the country and its citizens, you respect its symbols”, and you pretty much have the idea.
Wee Bairn, you seem to equate people respecting your right to opinions with people respecting your opinions. AFAIK, nobody has attacked the former.
It seems to me that a Christian has an entity that they must put above their nation if necessary*; atheists don’t.
*If the US decided to randomly outlaw Christianity this afternoon, you’d see what I mean. As it is, too many of us Christians equate our Christianity with our Americanism (or Canadianism, if you’re me.)
Let me add this piece of advice, as someone who has been “caught short” out in the woods, just use your underwear to wipe with. No need to carry a flag!
Trust me, if a couple of the pro flag people posting here saw me shitting on the flag, they would not respect my right to do so.
Sort of like the Jackass routine with the guy in the Satan costume, and some Chirstian type literally punches him in the face.
I’m not sure what you mean by “nation.” I have no respect for Bush and his buddies. That doesn’t mean I think the citizens are garbage. On the contrary, I think our citizens deserve much better. I think our reputation deserves better. The flag has nothing to do with it.
Actually, an upside-down flag is a distress signal; not an insult. The symbol is appropriately used that way when referring to a nation that is being mismanaged as severely as ours is.
“And to the Republic, for which it stands” is the relevant line, I believe.
Of course a flag is nothing more than an colored bit of cloth, and certainly not due reverence. I can’t imagine anyone who understands what this country is all about (imho, of course) objecting to using a flag for whatever emergency purpose might come up. Binding wounds, for warmth, even personal sanitation (but what kind of idiot would tramp along in the wild with a big ol’ flag but no TP?).
Yet it is also a symbol of the country. Some people are still glad to live in the US, even if it’s not perfect, and see the flag as representation of their own hopes and dreams. Some people care about history and enjoy the solemnity of the rituals associated with the flag, especially because they don’t have any interest in religious services.
But they don’t worship the thing.