Atheists: how do you feel about patriotism, particularly: reverence of flags

In My Humble Opinion
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I don’t get the reverance of flags or any other symbols. That doesn’t mean I’d be happy to destroy a flag, though; not because I have respect for the people that do invest something in it (because, like I said, it just seems odd) but because it would piss them off, and I have no intent to be impolite just because I don’t personally follow those rules of politeness.

But then I don’t get patriotism at all anyway. “I love my country” - this is a statement that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. At least with flags I get the general idea (they represent good things about the country), but patriotism I just don’t get at all. The U.S. flag, for example, represents everything good and bad about the country; the entirety of it’s existence. So, uh, why not just revere the good things themselves? That way you don’t have to make niceties about the bad stuff at all.

62

Atheist here.

I guess i sort of understand patriotism, but i tend to feel that it should be reserved for unimportant things like sporting contests, where the stakes are (for the spectators, at least) relatively low. I have no trouble cheering for the Australian cricket team or rugby team, even though i may not have anything more in common with the Australian players than i do with the English or Indian players. The main reason i hold sporting allegiances is that sport tends to be more fun if you have someone to support. It’s the same reason i cheer for the Baltimore Ravens and Orioles here in the US.

But patriotism in its more general sense has always struck me as an emotion or a state of mind that is much more likely to result in undesirable rather than desirable character traits and world views. It often leads to parochialism and a narrow-minded exaltation of one’s own nation. Sure, in principle its possible to combine patriotism with a nuanced critical perspective on one’s own country, but as far as i can tell, this is more the exception than the rule. When i think of patriotism, i think of the “love it or leave it” attitude, the sense that we (whoever “we” happens to be) are better than everyone else by simple virtue of being within a particular national boundary.

Patriotism also seems to obscure more genuine communities of interest, as well as important divisions, in the areas that really matter. A poor person in America might have more in common with a poor person elsewhere than with some rich American; a Christian in America might have more in common with a Christian overseas than with an atheist American; yet patriotism tends to obscure commonalities that cross international boundaries, and papers over the internal divisions within countries, by appealing to shallow and often irrational notions of commonality and dressing it all up in convenient symbols, like flags.

I might love particular things about the country where i’m living, i just don’t get the concept of “loving my country.” That sentiment literally doesn’t mean anything to me.

63

mhendo, great post.

To add further, to me its like, sure I’m glad I live where I live, but its nothing to take pride in, becasue, unless you are a naturalized citizen, you did not have anything to do with it- you just happened to be born here. If I was born in Finland, I’m sure I’d be happy to be a Finn. Pride should be reserved for things you actually have a hand in, like your kids, or that deck you built out back.

64

There’s a difference between “not pooping on flag in front of VFW parade” and “first cut twice leaving the field of stars untouched (as they represent the 50 states, they should not be divided), the pieces are then burned in a respectful manner, and the ashes buried,” per the other thread. The former is a question of respect to people, and the latter is just fetishism. The piece of cloth really doesn’t care one way or the other.

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[QUOTE=Phlosphr]

[QUOTE=Misnomer]
It’s my opinion that anyone who would be offended by someone shitting on the flag – either literally or figuratively – doesn’t really understand what it means to be an American. I find that more offensive than anything that could possibly be done to a flag.
[/QUOTE]
Would you mind elaborating…
[/QUOTE]
Every American has the right to treat the flag as they see fit, and has the right to think of it as anything from a powerful symbol to a piece of cloth. That’s part of what it means to be free, and is among the rights that our military members fight and die for. America wouldn’t be America if people couldn’t shit on the flag.

How is exercising a freedom/right offensive? How is someone shitting on the flag any more/less offensive than someone else carefully folding it and making sure it doesn’t touch the ground?

66

Another atheist checking in. I was raised in the church, and still feel funny walking in front of the cross when I am in church without bowing or some other sort of respectful gesture. It kills me when tourists walk all around a church gabbing and snapping photos while a service is underway as it seems dis-respectful. I try and act respectfully at places like Buddhist temples, Shinto shrines, etc.; especially if they are still “active”.

If I had to dispose of a flag I’d probably do it in some discreet manner. I don’t get extreme patriotism or nationalism however. The idea that the US is the “best” country in the world just does not resonate with me. While the US has lot’s going for it I’m not sure if is better than places like Norway or Sweden that have a nice balance of freedom, democracy, capitalism, and social responsibility. At the same time, I hate hearing casual digs about the US from foreigners.

My views on religion and patriotism are similar; if one believes in a certain thing just because of where you were born, then it probably is not a reasoned and rational belief.

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[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
… to me its like, sure I’m glad I live where I live, but its nothing to take pride in, becasue, unless you are a naturalized citizen, you did not have anything to do with it- you just happened to be born here. If I was born in Finland, I’m sure I’d be happy to be a Finn. Pride should be reserved for things you actually have a hand in, like your kids, or that deck you built out back.
[/QUOTE]

Well, since I had a hand in providing for peacetime defense of my country, I’ll take pride in that. And the fact that I overcame some fairly long odds, physically speaking, just to finish basic training. And in the Army Commendation Medal I was awarded for the communications work I did while in the U.S. Army. But don’t think for a moment that patriodism drove me into military service. That was a purely economic decision. Once I’d served, though, I was pretty damn proud of myself for having done so.

Because I am a patriot, I’ll willingly defend the United States against any attack that I am capable of defending; I will do so knowing I could lose my own life in that defense. Because I am a patriot, I am deeply grieved by the insane and absurd situation our president has put us in; we are rapidly losing what little respect the rest of the world had for us, and that’s not fair to the millions of Americans who trust their government to lead with wisdom and circumspection. Because I am a patriot, I firmly believe we must respect the human rights of everyone we share this planet with, and that sometimes that’s not easy. Because I am a patriot, I will resist by any means possible (even if it’s just banging away on a computer keyboard on SDMB) the subjugaton of people’s civil rights by those seeking only profits or self-glorification.

I take a great deal of pride in where I live. That’s why I spend hours every week tending it, keeping the weeds down and planting flowers and painting the buildings and raking the driveway gravel until it’s smooth. This is my little bit of America, I’m proud of it, I’m proud of the good things my country has done, and I’m doing what I can to try to rectify the wrong things done in its name.

And none of that has to do with religion.

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[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
mhendo, great post.

To add further, to me its like, sure I’m glad I live where I live, but its nothing to take pride in, becasue, unless you are a naturalized citizen, you did not have anything to do with it- you just happened to be born here. If I was born in Finland, I’m sure I’d be happy to be a Finn. Pride should be reserved for things you actually have a hand in, like your kids, or that deck you built out back.
[/QUOTE]

In your opinion why is a country not something to take pride in? You say you are glad to live where you live. Why? What’s so great about it? Are you happy to live under a constitution that allows you to speak your mind? If yes, why not have pride in the country that constitution was written for?

[QUOTE=MISNOMER]
Every American has the right to treat the flag as they see fit, and has the right to think of it as anything from a powerful symbol to a piece of cloth. That’s part of what it means to be free, and is among the rights that our military members fight and die for. America wouldn’t be America if people couldn’t shit on the flag.

How is exercising a freedom/right offensive? How is someone shitting on the flag any more/less offensive than someone else carefully folding it and making sure it doesn’t touch the ground?
[/QUOTE]

Where did that second paragraph come from after you wrote the first? I read the first, and I said t myself…yep, I agree, uh huh I agree with that..yep, I agree…
then I read your second paragraph and it seemed to sharply contradict the first.

The basic answer is: to some, saying that shitting on a flag is horrific is their given right, as is the act of micturating on a flag the other persons given right. The two are not mutually exclusive…but then they don’t have to like each other either.

I’m a very layed back guy, I like green living, anything environmental, and am somewhat of an agnostic…a humanistic/neo-pagan I guess. But I love my country. I see an American flag and I feel a sense of loving where I live and the laws that govern it. I don’t agree with all of them - I can’t believe marijuana is not legal - but I abide. So when I see someone decimating the flag I don’t consider it a mere piece of cloth, I consider it a symbol of where I live, and therefore naturally get slightly angered when it is micturated upon.

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[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I’m not sure what you mean by “nation.” I have no respect for Bush and his buddies. That doesn’t mean I think the citizens are garbage. On the contrary, I think our citizens deserve much better. I think our reputation deserves better. The flag has nothing to do with it.
[/QUOTE]

When I say “nation”, I mean “nation”; the United States, and the people in it; our shared history, culture and values. This isn’t a partisan thing, or a Republican or Democratic thing. You can still love and respect the country without loving and respecting the current leadership.

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[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Are you having me on? Why in the world do you care if someone you don’t know does not respect America?
[/QUOTE]

Because I respect America and it bothers me when people don’t. How would you feel if, say, somebody you don’t know starts saying bad stuff about your mom? You’d be upset about it, I’m sure, just as I’d be upset if somebody started saying bad stuff about my mom. Why? Because I love and respect my mom and don’t want to see people treating her badly. Likewise, I love and respect the United States and don’t want to see people treating her badly.

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[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Because I respect America and it bothers me when people don’t. How would you feel if, say, somebody you don’t know starts saying bad stuff about your mom? You’d be upset about it, I’m sure, just as I’d be upset if somebody started saying bad stuff about my mom. Why? Because I love and respect my mom and don’t want to see people treating her badly. Likewise, I love and respect the United States and don’t want to see people treating her badly.
[/QUOTE]
Because America is not my mother. My mother is a single human being, and if someone loves her or hates her, they can at least plausibly argue that she makes up a unitary whole that can reasonably be loved or hated.

But for me, and for many other people who see patriotism is irrational, the idea of “America” (or any other country, for that matter) is just too large and multi-faceted and contradictory to ever be subjected to simplistic notions like love or respect. I love and respect aspects of what America is, including parts of its history, many of its people, and quite a few of its institutions and values (to the extent that it has shared values). But i also dislike and disrespect some aspects of America. For me, to speak of such an amorphous, artificial, and contingent entity as a nation as if it was an individual in the same way that a person is makes no sense.

I can’t buy your comparison of the nation to your mother, because for me the two things are so fundamentally different as to make the comparison meaningless.

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[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
How would you feel if, say, somebody you don’t know starts saying bad stuff about your mom?
[/QUOTE]
Just wanted to add something else.

Maybe i’m lacking a particular “offense” gene or something, but i’ve also never understood the way that people get so enraged in instances like this. If someone i don’t know started saying bad stuff about my mother, i’m not sure why i should care very much. After all, if i don’t know the person, chances are pretty good that he or she doesn’t know my mother either, and is only saying those things to upset me. Why fall for the bait?

What does it cost me, for example, if some guys tells me that my mother is a whore? I know she’s not a whore, so there’s nothing to be worried about on that score. I also know that he’s never met my mother, so even if she was a whore, he’d have no way of knowing. The insult is completely meaningless.

The only way an insult like this would worry me is if my other was standing right next to me, and i thought she had been upset by it. But i also know my mother, and she would probably laugh in the guy’s face.

73

Phlosphr- glad/fortunate that I was born in any country that is not war-torn, third world and the like. But there are dozens of countries that meet this criteria, many which are even more successful and are superior to the US in many ways.

But I would imagine if I were born in Berlin in 1920 and this were 1938 I’d be glad to be a Nazi as well. I believe in pride in personal success or achievements, not because I happened to be born in a particular country. I just don’t get the concept of national pride- it simply does not register with me.

And Captain, I love my grandma to death, but on the day of her death you could post a thread about how big of a bitch she was and how you’re glad she’s dead, and I would have more important concerns than what someone I don’t know on a message board says. I never got that one either- kids fighting at school because one said ‘your mama’. Sticks and stones and all.

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[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]

But I would imagine if I were born in Berlin in 1920 and this were 1938 I’d be glad to be a Nazi as well. I believe in pride in personal success or achievements, not because I happened to be born in a particular country. I just don’t get the concept of national pride- it simply does not register with me.

[/QUOTE]

You’d be glad to be Nazi as well huh? :rolleyes:

What if you were having your Bar Mitzvah in 1933, how would you feel then…? Proud to have that star on your left arm?

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[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
When I say “nation”, I mean “nation”; the United States, and the people in it; our shared history, culture and values. This isn’t a partisan thing, or a Republican or Democratic thing. You can still love and respect the country without loving and respecting the current leadership.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t see how you can separate the two. Yes, we have a rich history (most of it having nothing to do with the NATION but with great minds doing great things). We, as a NATION have also done some pretty reprehensible shit. Reprehensible to the point where it would be unforgiveable if not for the fact that our representatives, and therefore our NATION, is an ever-changing entity. There is nothing to respect or disrespect if not for the representation.

While I wouldn’t phrase it quite the same way Wee Bairn did, I can certainly see where he’s coming from.

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[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I don’t see how you can separate the two. Yes, we have a rich history (most of it having nothing to do with the NATION but with great minds doing great things). We, as a NATION have also done some pretty reprehensible shit. Reprehensible to the point where it would be unforgiveable if not for the fact that our representatives, and therefore our NATION, is an ever-changing entity. There is nothing to respect or disrespect if not for the representation.

While I wouldn’t phrase it quite the same way Wee Bairn did, I can certainly see where he’s coming from.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a love/hate relationship is what your saying. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
You’d be glad to be Nazi as well huh? :rolleyes:

What if you were having your Bar Mitzvah in 1933, how would you feel then…? Proud to have that star on your left arm?
[/QUOTE]
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

He was merely observing that many people tend to internalize and valorize the culture in which they grow up. Historians have spent plenty of ink arguing precisely that many German citizens were proud of the growing strength and prosperity of the nation under the Nazis, especially in view of the economic disasters in Germany during the 1920s and the perception that Hitler and the Nazis were standing up to the countries who had contributed to Germany’s problems with unreasonable war reparation demands.

In fact, rabidly nationalist regimes like Nazi Germany show precisely the ways in which irrational patriotism can blind people to the faults and flaws in their own society. America is unarguably a better place than Nazi Germany, but that fact doesn’t necessarily make Americans any less susceptible to the debilitating effects of nationalism and patriotism. In a country ruled by a brutal dictator, that nationalism led to warmongering and gas chambers; in a country with a tradition of democracy and rule of law, it merely leads to unreflective hubris, self-satisfaction, and unwillingness to brook criticism.

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[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
It’s a love/hate relationship is what your saying. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

You betchya. I don’t see how anyone but the blind flag-waving sheep could see it any other way.

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[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
Wiping your shit-smeared ass with an American flag is respectful? I think not! There is nothing respectful about any of your posts in this thread.
[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering why someone would bring a flag on a camping trip & forget the toilet paper.

Sounds pretty stupid. But this is America! We have a right to be stupid. Look at our president.

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[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
You betchya. I don’t see how anyone but the blind flag-waving sheep could see it any other way.
[/QUOTE]

(Phlospher, I wasn’t accusing you of being one of them, by the way.)