Atheists: how do you feel about patriotism, particularly: reverence of flags

In My Humble Opinion
81

To answer the OP: I’m an atheist but respect the rules for handling flags. The only one I own is folded & put away; my father wore it to his wake. But if I flew one, I’d follow the “rules.”

Excessive flag flying & braying patriotism have become popular with those who hurt our country & hurt our country’s reputation. And I’m annoyed when they fly dirty & tattered flags, although this is a minor issue. Flag burning is a Constitutional right–although it’s never been as popular here as some seem to think.

I’m not offended by religious symbols, either. In fact, I find many of them beautiful and/or interesting. Of course, I was raised by “idolatrous” Catholics.

82

I know :slight_smile:

Being mildly obtuse maybe :wink: But Hitler didn’t arise out of blind Patriotism. He arose because Germany was under a massive depression brought on by the Weimar Republic. Hitler and the Nazis promised people what they wanted, better jobs, living arrangments, etc…etc… His ruse came when he blamed groups like the jews for this, and turned an economic problem into a REARM GERMANY issue. Not blind patriotism. I staunchly disagree when you posit this happening in the US.

83

Right. He used patriotism to rally people behind him, and to assert the greatness of Germany against outsiders.

And much of his rhetoric in gaining and keeping the support of the German people was militantly nationalistic. The notion of Germany as the Fatherland, and of Lebensraum for the German people, and many of his other policies and plans, were based on fierce nationalism and an ability to make Germans see themselves as a cohesive whole united against those who were “other.”

Well, it’s lucky no-one ever posited any such thing in this thread then, isn’t it?

84

Patriotism in general never seemed any different to me than nationalism. Country X is a great country because I was born in it and I am a superior person because I was born in country X. This has always struck me shallow. We should be concerned about the good of humanity in general and not engaging in favoritism based on where we are from.

I am willing to support a certain type of patriotism toward the United States since apparently it was instrumental in bringing about the modern era of democracy and individual rights. So I could see American patriotism as being about the principles of rights and a government controlled by the people as opposed to the people being manipulated by the government. In theory our flag ought to stand for this.

In practice, unfortunately, it does not. This first hit me during the Vietnam war. People put flag decals in their car windows (distributed by Mobil Oil as I recall) and the message was clear: I am in favor of killing commies in Vietnam. It had nothing to do with freedom or individual rights or the best interests of humanity.

Since then I have found the biggest flag wavers to usually be the ones who are eager to go kill “enemies” if the government tells them to, but not to be concerned about things like imprisoning people unnecessarily (like pot smokers), denying rights to unpopular groups, violating separation of church and state, the state keeping secrets from the people while not allowing people to keep secrets from the state (privacy), imprisonment without due process, etc. They will wave the flag and shout “freedom” but will happily trade freedom for a little extra security. So for me, the American flag is tainted.

The meaning of a symbol is ultimately defined by the way it is used, and all too often the American flag is used by unscrupulous politicians and mindless nationalists rather than by people who are actually concerned about individual rights and government by the people.

85

Yes it is.

I don’t agree Germany is a good example for this thread. But I also don’t agree with Wee Bairn’s example of wiping his ass with the flag. I’m not religious, nor a bush supporter, nor a “current U.S Administration supporter”, but I am a supporter of our flag as a symbol of freedom. There’s not much more I can say about that. It’s hard to staunchly disagree with someone like you mhendo, because most of what I read of yours in these boards I like and agree with. But when it comes to “flag wiping” I draw a line.

86

I think flag-wiping is an extreme example to drive home the point that the flag is a symbol and not something to be revered. If we redesigned it tomorrow, would we still be the same nation? Would we still have the same successes and failures we had yesterday? Would a new flag impede any progress we make as a nation? It means nothing with regard to who we are and how we conduct ourselves in the world.

87

If we changed the flag, then the new flag would be the symbol of the nation, and it should be treated with the same respect the current flag is treated with. In itself, the actual flag means nothing. What the flag represents is what means something.

88

I’m sorry. I don’t know how else to explain it. Maybe it’s not something that can be explained. All I can say is that I love my country. I’d die for it, if I had to; I’d kill for it, if I had to. (I obviously hope that I won’t have to) I don’t understand how you can not feel that way. I realize you don’t, and I realize that there’s no objective reason for me feeling this way about my country…that if I lived anywhere else, I’d feel the same way about that place.

Going back to the mother analogy, but turning it the other way around, you know how they say that every child is a special one to their parents? A mother loves her newborn child even before he or she has developed a personality…she doesn’t love the child because of the merits of the child, she loves the child because they child is hers. I don’t love the US because of its merits, I love the US because it is mine.

89

I find it silly. I understand why people revere the flag, or the cross, or the star of David, or whatever, but it makes me :rolleyes: . I’m glad that I live in America, as opposed to the majority of other countries, but I certainly don’t love what America has become over the last 231 years, and where it seems to be heading in the future.

Joe

90

That’s right. And some of what it represents is ugly. Vile and ugly. Do you love those aspects of your country?

91

Definitely strong religious undertones in this take on patriotism.

92

Honestly.

No one cares if you wipe your ass with the flag in private, because no one knows if you wipe your ass with the flag in private. The flag is just a piece of cloth.

But publicly disrespecting a symbol of a country means you disrespect the country. Why do you think people burn the American flag? It’s a simple application of sympathetic magic: “As I do to this symbol, so should be done to what the symbol represents.”

It’s pretty simple. You wouldn’t go into a Buddhist temple in Tibet and wipe your ass on a prayer flag, would you? You wouldn’t go into a Shinto temple and piss on the altar, would you? You wouldn’t go into an Indian sweat lodge and take a dump, would you? You wouldn’t go to Hyderabad and wipe your ass with a painting of Siva, would you? You wouldn’t go to Tehran and flush the Koran down a public toilet, would you?

Why not? These are all meaningless symbols, right? Why wouldn’t you do those things?

Wiping your ass on the American flag is political communication. It is protected speech, sure. I don’t advocate any sort of law preventing you from burning the flag, or wiping your ass on the flag. That doesn’t mean that I have to “respect” you after you burn the flag, or wipe your ass on the flag, or advocate for blacks to be sent back to Africa, or for repeal of the 19th Amendment, or all sorts of other consitutionally protected but stupid and assholish speech. You have the right to wipe your ass on the flag, join the KKK, the CPUSA, or Westboro Baptist Church. That doesn’t mean we have to smile and nod approvingly as you join the Klan. You have the right to burn the flag, you have the right to stand on a streetcorner in Compton and scream “I hate niggers!”, you have the right to call Hitler a great man, you have the right to say that God Hates Fags.

And so what?

93

[Moderator Underoos On]O.K., the debate is over. This is now a poll again, and if you’ve voiced your opinion, please move on and let others voice theirs.
Thank you.[/Moderator Underoos On]

94

Personally, I love living in this country. I do not, however, see the point it throwing it in everyone’s faces, or windshields at that matter.

It seems to me that flags have almost become a fashion statement like “ohh, look at me! I love troops! I even have red, white, and blue stickers!!!”

Please note that I hope that everyone of the soldiers overseas or in battle come home safely, even if I think the war is shite.

95

I’m sure you get my point, but I’ll play along- If I were a Hitler Youth, I wouldn’t care about Jews, becasue the Nazi party would have instilled me that I am better than Jews, that they are beneath me.

Sort of the way some (not all. SOME) current American patriots don’t care about loss of life in Iraq, becasue Americans are superior.

Sorry, just saw the Mod warning

96

It’s just a symbol, and revering it to the degree Americans often do seems to lead to valuing the symbol over the reality. Like the people who claim it stands for freedom and want to toss in prison those who burn it, or force them to pledge to it.

97

Coming in late here, I know, but still:

I think you are taking the post as meaning “if I had the opportunity, I’d wipe my ass with the flag!!” when I think it was more meant as “if I had nothing else around to use, I’d use the flag rather than try to clean my ass off with leaves, which wouldn’t do much good and would leave me pretty much still smeary with shit. I don’t see the flag as being so special that I’d walk around covered in shit rather than dirty it up.”

I think I’d feel the same way. Now, if I had the option between a flag or some other piece of fabric, I’d use the other. But would some special “symbolic importance” of the flag be enough reason for me to walk around caked in shit? Especially while camping and therefore unlikely to be able to bathe anytime soon? No. And it’s not like I’d take the soiled flag and parade it around in front of people and say “look what I did!!!” It would be a personal thing that no one but me would ever know about. Mind you, the whole thing is an intentionally extreme hypothetical that wouldn’t ever actually come up–it was brought up simply to illustrate a point.

I think the flag has meaning as a symbol, and I think it deserves a certain amount of respect. I don’t understand people who treat it as a holy relic, but I do think that when people let a flag get all tattered and still fly it, it’s pretty tacky. I don’t personally fly a flag because I have too many gripes with the way our country is behaving in the world right now, but in a time when I actually felt proud of my country, I might fly one. Also, a flag I bought at Walmart would hold very little specific value to me and would likely be stored rolled up in a ziplock bag or something (rolled so it didn’t get creases. Folding causes creases, yanno. Ziplock for protection). The flag that was draped over my grandfather’s coffin [hypothetically] would on the other hand be a family heirloom and have great meaning, and would probably be stored in the “proper” fashion. Of course it would also not ever be flown, either.

I’d fly a giant “Earth” flag on flag day if I owned one. I almost bought one once but at the time I couldn’t justify the expense (it was hard to afford food at the time) and I haven’t gotten around to it since.

(I’m not a theist, but I’m not actually an atheist either. And I don’t really consider myself agnostic. I don’t believe in a self-aware, entity-type higher power, maybe that’s the way to put it.)

98

See, now I wasn’t even going to answer. What does my atheism have to do with patriotism?

But I’ll say a few small things I guess. I think patriotism is extraordinarily silly. I think it creates more divides amongst the world than perhaps anything else but religion.

People who are overly patriotic often IME have the attitude of - “it’s my country, if you don’t like it, go find your own”. Or worse yet, “go back to your own”. It’s the “It’s My Country” that bothers me the most. How many people with this attitude have ever done one thing to call it their own? Even voted?

And I’m a humanist, even if I don’t particularly like to admit it, and I think patriotism heavily obscures the fact that we’re all human. Patriots often think that our country is better and because some of us happened to be born in this country - and make no mistake, it was a lucky accident and that’s all - that we are, by definition, better.

What really makes us different than the people in, say, China? They’re Red and we’re not but I am not talking about the government. I am talking about Joe Shmoe from the street. Do you think he is terribly different from me for living in a different country? He loves his family, prolly has a dog, has to work for a living…

I guess I just feel we need to think more in a planetary sense now and stop this habit of thinking in a countrywide sense. This is coming to be for the first time in history a truly global planet and yet we still get hung up over this petty stuff of my country tis of thee.

But I , though cynical as well, am hopelessly idealistic and have no real hopes of anything like this ever coming to pass. People will always be people and always compartmentalize and there really isn’t any hope of us improving IMO.

Was that negative enough? :slight_smile: I do realize not all patriots are like this, YMMV, etc. - but the question was what you think of patriotism and not patriots.

99

I’m an atheist, and I’m also a (liberal) nationalist. I’m also not an American. All these things about the “proper” way to handle and dispose of the flag are typically American, and I can’t say I “get” them, but I realize that it’s only because it isn’t part of my culture. I do get the importance of flags as national symbols, though. While I certainly support the right of people to make political statements by disrespecting or destroying flags, I wouldn’t participate, because to me it would mean that I disrespect or wish destruction on all the people this flag represents. And if I see someone burning or stomping on the Quebec flag, I will feel sad and angry, and if they’re close they’ll probably get a piece of my mind. I admit that it would hit me less close to home if I saw them disrespecting the Canadian flag, and even less if it was a foreign flag, but I’d still find it stupid and potentially offensive.

I feel love and pride for my nation. Yes, I know it may seem ridiculous to feel pride for what other people have accomplished, but my nation is an important part of who I am. I guess the pride I feel could be described as “this is what we can do when we get into it together”.

By the way, I don’t own a flag and I don’t intend to buy one or fly one, at least for now. If I was camping and had to wipe myself on something, and the only available object was a flag (any flag), I’d feel bad using it, but I’d probably do it anyway. It’s just a piece of cloth.

100

You find patriotism to be a bizarre concept but yet you are glad to have the right to have your opinion, which right was created by our founding fathers, and patriotism is that attitude of mind which has respect and admiration for those founders who created a country where you can have opinions…do you not see that you are trying to have your cake & eat it too – that is, benefit from the rights we have gained while denigrating the gains at the same time by calling those who support them “bizarre.” Whew – what a sentence. Do you see what I mean tho? If you are glad people died for your rights then I think you are (gasp) somewhat patriotic.