kayT: your post implies that America is the only place that has such rights.
I didn’t mean that. I just meant that part of patriotism to me is being grateful for the opportunities and rights that your country has given you. Can’t you do that without thinking your country is THE BEST or THE ONLY? Can’t I be patriotic without hating everyone else? Gosh I hope so.
The concept of speaking one’s mind is not an American one.
Yeah, you can, but can’t you also be grateful for the opportunities you have without feeling compelled to “side with your country” unilaterally? I love a lot of things about America, but I don’t call myself “patriotic” because there are a lot of aspects of this country that I really don’t agree with, and I’m not comfortable with the idea of being seen to be standing behind ideas that I strongly disagree with.
Patriotism seems to be becoming synonymous with nationalism with a lot of people. I love my country (England) and what it stands for but am not blind to its faults. The Far Right political groups (or nutjobs) were happy to whip up a nationalistic frenzy, using our flag as their banner, so it’s no surprise that a lot of English people struggle to find pride in it. A flag represents your country, the way people look at it depends on how groups they’ve seen using it have acted in the past. There was an attempt to reclaim the English flag and make it something to be proud of in the 90’s. I’m not sure if it worked.
If I hold up an English flag at an international event I expect people to judge me on the actions of my countrymen all over the world. A flag is not automatically a symbol worthy of respect, it only earns that if the person carrying it, or country represented by it, is equal of the same respect.
Considering that I only see a flag as a symbol representing a countries people, foreign/domestic policy and not an idol; I have no problem with flag burning. It sends out the message that the flag has now become worthless because what it represents is not something you want to be waving around, showing off to people.
I do not understand people that would ban flag burning. Is it offensive? Sure, it’s someone protesting that they’re no longer proud to be a citizen of that country. I can’t think of a more powerful and peaceful way to protest. If you ban it then you’re banning criticism, peaceful protest and freedom of speech. Some countries have no problem with that but no matter how high you hoist it up your flagpole; it will still be flying closer to the ground. Keep it up and you might as well weave them in to rugs.
If you’re flying your flag high, for all the world to see, and someone asks you why are you proud to be an [whatever], and you can’t give a satisfactory answer; you might as well furl it back up and sit quietly. ‘Because we’re the greatest!’ just doesn’t cut it.
FWIW: I think Americans should be proud to fly their flag high. Though probably not for the same reasons that flag-idolising nationalists would give.
:rolleyes:
Uh huh. We’re just a bunch of wallflowers, we Americans!
Lemur: um… I think you misunderstood the comment? I believe the sentiment wasn’t “American’s don’t have the idea of speaking one’s mind” but rather “speaking one’s mind is not a concept UNIQUE to Americans”
Thank you. Your choice of words was better than mine.
OpalCat and kayT, please see post #93.
? I thought you said to let people who hadn’t had a say get their say? I hadn’t posted yet, and I had my say which included my answer to the OP…? 
Flags are dumb. My country’s flag has a bloody great Union Jack (the symbol of another country) stuck up in it’s left hand corner. Why should I or my children respect, worship or be reverent towards that? Our flag is a symbol which doesn’t even carry any symbolic relevence to the existance of our nation (Australia). And what must indigenous Australians think of it - being expected to honour the flag which bears the symbol of those who stole this land from them?
mm
I’m an atheist and also deeply patriotic. Not only do I respect my flag, but I respect yours too.
On racing days, we play the anthem before the day begins. Everyone is expect to stand. I love when the wind is blowing just right and the flag waves beautifully. I hate when people say at the end “Play Ball.” I salute. (Not sure if it is a proper salute, but it beats the hell out of “play ball.”)
The US of A may not be perfect, just and equal quite yet, but I honestly believe that at least attempting to become more so, puts us in a better place.
Our flag is our Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, The Gettysburg Address, the Freedom Marches. It may be a piece of cloth to you, but it is to me, a powerful symbol of something I can believe in.
An item of interest: The City of Aurora (near Chicago) just passed a “no flag waving” law, specifically aimed at those obnoxious gigantic flags that Mexicans fly on their vehicles. Some people are squawking that it’s racist, but the city says it’s a safety thing, which I agree with. I never see Americans exhibiting that brand of flag waving, so I can understand why the Mexican community might think it’s racist, but at any rate, it saves me the trouble of tearing the fucking things off their cars and shoving them up their asses. Huh. Flag-wiping!
I’m an atheist, but also pretty iconoclastic (in the general, nicer usage).
I don’t have any reverence for leaders, authority figures, celebrities, educators or symbols. However, my lack of regard for such things means I don’t place much stock in the effects of their destruction, either.
I like this post. I like it because it illuminates my point of view. I’m not a die hard NASCAR fan but when I was in Daytona visiting friends they had 500 tickets and we went. It was an experience to say the least. And when the flag goes up, and people sing the national anthem, it feels good to me. Not because we slaughtered millions of indians, gave arms to arabs, dropped a bomb on Japan, and infiltrated modern culture with our music and t.v. but because of the rights I have in this land. I love the ability to eat a triple cheeseburger, wash it down with a chocolate milkshake while watching reality tv, or conversley grow my own vegetables eat a tofu burger and lounge in my hammock out by my creek behind the house with a good book. To me this right is symbolized by our flag. Die hard, no not really, happy to be an American. You betcha!
Then again I’d probably be happy to be a Swede, or Swiss as well…
Semantics and all, but I can see glad or happy to be American, but think pride is bit much, especially due to the dumb luck of it all. Pride leads to be things. Happiness does not. Happiness is not a deadly sin, pride is 
Pride is really a pretty silly word in this case. We, as individuals do lots of things we can take pride in. Civic duties and charities and the like…we all do our own thing as we see fit. But collectively, we pay taxes and…mow our lawns. I guess that’s something!
In fact, if you read (onelook) dictionary definitions of pride, thers is not one that fits the ‘proud to be American’ definition, except this one- “the belief that you are better or more important than other people”
This is what you need on your flag.
