Judging by behavior of many in religion I have to believe many so called believers are actually athiests. When I hear athiests talk of Karma and sending good thoughts and things like that I also suspect some belief or faith in an afterlife.
It’s a message of support and a general hope that good things will happen, not faith in a god or an afterlife.
Where do you hear atheists talking like this? Anywhere on this board?
This need to believe that atheists secretly believe in their god is a crutch some religionists have, because it absolves them from having to question their own belief system. “Even atheists believe in God, so why should I even think about the possibility that He might not exist?”
The other crutch in the pair is the need to believe that all religions have the same message in different words. Similarly, it absolves them from having to question whether their religion is the correct one, since they’ve decided that they are all the same.
Put the two together, and you get “I believe what everyone else believes”.
I don’t know that they need to believe that atheists secretly believe. I think it is more a matter of god belief being so ingrained into them that they cannot imagine anyone without that belief.
I don’t doubt any of that, but the issue in the philosophy of mind is very much an in-principle one: qualia enthusiasts insist that perceptual content, the ‘what is it like’ to have such-and-such an experience, is not even in principle reducible to the physical level, whereas a physicalist holds that it is; and obviously, anything going on in a microprocessor is, as well.
And I’m also not sure that I would call what goes on insed a microprocessor ‘unknowable’: this term I usually reserve for occasions where it is simply logically precluded to acquire some knowledge, like in the case of the uncertainty principle, perhaps, not for cases where it is ‘merely’ impossible in practice.
In other words, everything is physical, but we can never know the exact details. I think the same is true of the brain. We probably will be able to measure the reaction of a brain when shown something blue, and see that at a more or less high level different brains react the same way. But we may never know exactly. Qualia fans may say that even this small amount of uncertainty allows for very different experiences, but we are getting to the level of extreme skepticism here. So, while we can’t prove it that we all see the same blue, we might be pretty convinced of it.
Kind of like when I TAed assembly language programming. Many kids whose programs gave the wrong answer blamed the computer. It was always them, though.
My father died earlier this year after a long, drawn out illness. In his theology, he was on his way to Heaven when he fought and fought and fought this disease. Why would anyone do this if what’s on the other side of death is Heaven?
I’m comfortable with the idea that my father no longer exists. I miss him and will continue to do so, but I have no illusions about meeting up with him ever again.
Good point. It’s a cliche that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if people are frantically praying not to meet their maker, maybe they should add, nor is there anyone who really believes he is going to paradise when he dies.
Which brings us to Muslims. It has always struck me that, for better or worse, they are much more consistent in their beliefs than Christians. Most Christians don’t know much about the Bible, and most of the minority who actually read it either ignore or explain away the parts they don’t like. Much of what proud Christians point to in Sharia Law as barbaric, such as punishing women for being rape victims, was copied from the Bible. Muslims seem to actually believe that their scriptures should be followed and trusted, while most Christians seem to just give lip service to their scriptures.
What’s really strange is that they disagree over which parts to ignore. Liberal Christians ignore large swaths of the Old Testament, like the clear injunctions against homosexuality, while conservative Christians embrace those verses, but ignore much of what Jesus said about helping the poor and sick.
Pardon me for jumping in here, but what do you guys mean by “qualia fans”? I, myself, believe in qualia in the sense that there is a real sensation of “what it is like”-ness, but I ultimately believe that the feeling is (most likely) reducible to purely physical properties coming from the brain, endocrine system etc. Do most physicalists not believe “qualia” is a meaningful sensation at all, or are we using “qualia fans” to mean “anyone who isn’t a physicalist/monist materialists”?
(Also, the computer is a bastard. Okay, not at the assembly level, but Java’s JIT compiler is nothing more than an entity comprised of pure hate).
By qualia fan I meant someone who thinks something inherently spiritual and supernatural is going on because we can’t nail down experiences. Just being a bit snarky, don’t read too much into it.
In any case, you can’t say much about a computer when you interact with it using high level languages like assembler. I was talking about the real guts.
I’ve asked more than once for some type of method that non-literalists (and this goes beyond liberals) use to decide which parts of the Bible they believe in, and which are just stories - beyond the obvious. Never have gotten an answer. My observation has been that you decide what morality you buy into, and then choose the parts of the Bible that support it. And lots of people who do this seem to be significantly more moral than God (at least the God of a more or less literal reading.)
Roger Penrose, in “The Emperor’s New Mind,” who thought he was being clever by asking a (hypothetical) AI system, “But what does it feel like?”
I share your snark!
This is all there is, there is no Higher Power or Purpose. When I die and rot, no part of me will remain but my atoms, and for a short time, other’s memories of me. I like living 
and it’s all the more precious because it is finite. Doesn’t bother me at all. I would like to live as long as possible to experience the full spectrum of a human lifetime, but I don’t feel afraid of death.
I was raised religious and all my family believes in god and an afterlife, except my two sisters and I. Not sure why but we seem to have all gotten the atheist gene. I stopped believing in that stuff around puberty.
The proper answer to that would be* “How can I meaningfully describe how I feel to a soulless automaton of meat? No mass of carbon compounds and water could ever be anything more than a mindless thing unconsciously imitating true feelings and self awareness!”*
“Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?” 
Do you believe it’s possible to exhibit all outwards signs of being sentient like you, without manifesting qualia i.e. do you believe philosphical zombies are possible?
Personally I think it’s likely possible, but harder than it is to be a non-zombie. A P-zombie would almost have to be an artificial creation, and it would be harder to make than an actual person.
First, the fact that we are conscious implies that it’s the easiest, simplest way of creating a humanlike intelligence in a humanlike brain; nature isn’t sentimental and if zombies were easier for evolution to achieve, we’d probably be zombies. Second, something that is just as capable of us while being profoundly different inside, yet acts on the surface just like us is doing something harder than just acting like a sentient human because you are a sentient human.
And third they’d pretty much have to be artificial because why would nature evolve a world filled with humans that aren’t sentient but perform a perfect imitation of sentience? It seems a pointless waste of effort. I’d expect a naturally evolved human capability but non-sentient intelligence to be very alien to humans in its behavior.
But you think it’s possible? I personally don’t - I think the only way to properly “fake” human sentience is to be humanly sentient. Remember, a p-Zombie doesn’t just pass most tests for human sentience, it passes any you can conceive of.