It seems to me that, either way, (whether God exists or not) I have to figure out the meaning of life for myself. “Living for God” is rather vague when you think about it and your life consists of the here and now, the collection of little daily events that add up to a whole. What those events consist of are largely up to us.
Some video games have a hardcore mode. That is, the normal way to play the game is that if you mess up and die, you’ve got a chance after you die to make things right: you suffer a mild penalty, but then you play some more. But in hardcore mode, you mess up and it’s over. Folks choose to play hardcore because it ups the tension and excitement of the game for them.
I don’t play hardcore mode, because it’s too much like life. As an atheist, I don’t think there’s an afterlife: I think this is it. Either I do it right this time, or I never do it right. There’s nobody to forgive my mistakes except for other people, so I darn sure better treat them in a way that leads to forgiveness, or doesn’t require it.
It’s the theists who act good out of fear that I don’t get. Or at least the ones who would be nihilists without god and who don’t understand my reasons for acting good. If you say you think atheists are immoral, that suggets that you have a fundamentally different basis for morality than I do, and since I think my basis (treat each other well, because we’re all we’ve got) is pretty good, I wonder about alternative reasons. Treat each other well because you’ll get in trouble with Dad if you don’t? That’s not morality, that’s just fear.
To me these ideas of an angry god or eternal bliss are irrelevant in the face of a being so dominant that it envelopes everything. It is not to say that I fear a good or bad end; I side with Stephen King’s literature philosophy. To me it is the eternal end of the adventure that disturbs me and causes doubt.
Not so much. I get occasional stabs of fear along with the suddenly intrusive thought that it’s inevitable that I’m going to die. But that’s usually a sign that I need to get more sleep or need to update and reduce my to do list. I’ve noticed it doesn’t happen when I’m actively engaged in my life.
Also, it was a gradual process that finished decades ago. (Well, gradual except for the mini-vision at the end.) So it’s not something I think about often. I thought of it as a process of getting over myself.
I think it’s the mitochondria. That or chocolate. Mmmm chocolate. And I kind of like my kids, huge and grown though they are.
I get your point about hardcore mode - it’s a good analogy. I play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online because if I play offline I know I’ll cheat and backup my save file…at least sometimes anyway.
But when my character dies I have the option to start over. New character, new attempt. To me the ability to play again in no way inhibits me from playing each game to the fullest.
This is life to me - it is not my fear of judgement that drives me, though I don’t deny I COULD be judged. It is an enjoyment of life in general that drives me. And I want to be able to do it again and again. Live, that is, of course.
My morality is derived in a way similar to yours, therefore; I do good works because I love and care for humanity, especially those close to me, as well as a respect for ALL life. Not just human. Not because I fear punishment, but because I innately feel that way.
I guess, to some, the idea of a final end is very peaceful, to me it is boring. I’d rather keep on struggling, forever. That, to me, is life. Another game, please!
I consider myself an agnostic, but I’m closer to an atheist. Basically, I’ve seen no evidence that there is a God or gods, or that there is a ‘greater will in the universe’. I can’t rule out the possibility that such an entity did or does exists, I’ve simply seen no evidence that convinces me that such a being either existed in the past or exists today.
It’s a game. You can always play again anyway.
Nonexistence and death don’t worry me- I didn’t exist for billions of years before I was born, and I didn’t suffer for it. Of course, in actual life-threatening situations in my life I have felt fear- but that was instinctual and more a fear of suffering, I believe, then a fear of death. But I’m not frightened by the idea of everything ending for me. I’ve gotten pretty good at the practice of not worrying about things I cannot affect; death is inevitable, so there’s not much point in worrying about it.
What drives me? One answer, for me, is to have good experiences, good memories, and good connections with other people and the world around me. I think there are other answers, for me and certainly for others.
This gets into another issue, which is that belief doesn’t dictate reality. No matter what one believes about an afterlife (or a god), either it exists or it doesn’t, no matter how we feel about it.
For me, it isn’t the inevitability of death that frightens me, but that dying is likely to be really, really unpleasant. I’m bracing myself for a last few minutes of very grave pain and panic.
After that? Shrug. Non-existence is easy. I “non-existed” for some 18 billion years already, and the time just flew by like that!
Yep! Life has its wonders and pleasures, and a good family is one of the chiefest of those joys. I’ve got lots of friends, and lots to do (so, naturally, I waste a lot of time here talking about theology! But that’s a kind of joy too!)
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I understand it, it makes sense to me, but if I deny the idea of life after death, of a grander scheme, I find myself depressed, unmotivated, and unfulfilled.
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I have the exact reverse reaction. I find it depressing to know that there are people out there imagining a grander scheme or life after death. That they have chosen to live their lives with the religious blinders on to give hope as opposed to confronting the reality of mortality. Moreover, it’s even more worrisome when those would rather attribute something to a deity as opposed to simply saying “I don’t know”.
As to what drives me? I love to learn, to explore, to engage my brain. Today at lunch I was excited to do some research at a library in the art deco courthouse in downtown St Paul for a non-fiction book I’m writing. I mean, just look at the pictures of the court house, especially the memorial hall! Then there are things like pizza, a good song, teaching my pug a new trick, holding hands with my bf, and a litany of other wonderful things.
What drives me? The pursuit of fulfilment. How good a wife can I be? How good a friend and colleague can I be? How far can I climb up the corporate ladder without getting dizzy? How many parts of the world can I get to? How many animals can I see in their natural habitat? How well can i play the piano? Can I lose another three stone in weight?
These are all exciting things and I look forward to finding out the answers!
I didn’t mean it to address you, I meant it to address the hypothetical atheist who is in a malaise because of lacking God.
If fantasies with no evidence make you happy, I guess that’s great. Why don’t you pretend you have a giant robot that you can use to fight Godzilla? Maybe that thought of that robot in its silo, waiting for your call, would help get you through the day.
Fair enough.
Carl Sagan, in his book Demon-Haunted World, wrote of a man who claimed there was a flame-breathing dragon living in his garage. When it was pointed out that no such monster could be seen, heard, touched, or smelt, he man said the dragon was invisible, inaudible, intangible, and odorless. When it was pointed out that nothing in the garage had been set aflame by the dragon’s flame, the man replied that this was a special flame that did not burn ordinary matter. Sagan then pointed out that there is little difference between a dragon such as the man described and one that did not exist as all.
He was, of course, speaking metaphorically.
I’ve been accused of being a militant atheist by members of my family because I won’t go to church services with my father, when in fact I refuse to do so because my father always takes the occasion to single me out personally during altar calls. See also my refusal to submit to laying-on of hands for magical healing.
Would I lie to myself so that I can take comfort in the lie?
No.
I’m not sure why people obsess so much over death. I can’t remember ever being unhappy before I was born. I imagine I’ll be just as content after I die as I was before I was born.
As far as what drives me - well, it changes all of the time.
Sometimes I’m driven by the desire for a new experience. Sometimes it’s love for my family. Sometimes it’s guilt. Sometimes I just want to relax.
Whereas to me I don’t know whether or not I existed before this - perhaps I did and my current state of existence is just incapable of knowing it. I cannot presume or deny these things, though I can readily see why you can - your line of reasoning is sound and conservative.
I would say that despite my underlying non-denominational theism I share the same basic motivations as you, but with the addition of some form of continued, infinite existence.
That brings me to another point that helps me sort through my mind; everything I observe, to me, seems infinite. The universe is (relatively, anyway) infinitely large, we can delve between cells to the (relatively) infinitely small, the universe may be infinitely old (we don’t necessarily know what was before the big bang), and may continue to exist infinitely. Why can’t one’s existence be infinite as well? The possibility grants me some comfort.
I think many theists have been told that morality comes from Godlyness, so they think that they’d be wretched without religion.
I’m sure they’d tend to be okay in actual life.
Inversely, reality doesn’t seem to dictate belief either. Not forcefully. Perhaps it does? If you are clinically insane, and to you the world is one big flower, are you wrong if in your mind it is so? To outside observes - yes - but what is existence if not your own experiences?
Dude, that’s his charisma bonus times his level in hit points! Is your dad ugly or something?
Which is PERFECTLY reasonable to me - I don’t suggest that ANYONE should be subject to anyone else’s fantasies, real or imagined. Unless they want to be, of course. Your reaction is purely necessity. I like that story - and to me it begs the question: if it has no observable features, does it, in fact, not exist? Or is that just one facet of reality?