Not going to debate this issue with you.
And if these women that you kissed contacted a reporter of a tabloid magazine and accused you of sexual assault because they didn’t like the kiss, you’d think that that was great. That that way, other women would know not to date you unless you have proven that you have become a better kisser?
Fry, please put her down. Try to work back into the conversation. You agree this journalist was irresponsible right? Talk about that for a while, get back in sync with the others and then try again to explain the other things you are saying if you still want to.
I’m saying this because I thing you’re a decent Doper, and I think you’re getting more flack than you deserve about this, but it’s not going in a good direction and no one else is even trying to understand what you mean. So time to change course. Maybe you don’t remember but long ago you talked to me in the middle of a thread I turned into a train wreck going up against LHOD. I think LHOD is also a decent Doper, and have since worried I poisoned the well with him back then, and you gave me good advice at the time which has helped minimize the number of times I’ve run off the rails.
Assume a famous woman. She did things. To another person. Why should he not be free to anonymously publish stroke and suck by lick to the public about what this public identified person did to him? Heck with video (his face blocked out of course). In a manner that everyone who knows her will see it and in a manner that is reasonably expected to harm her career?
There is a place for public shaming. This is not it.
LHoD I know you don’t want to engage on the issue but just to let you know I’m not pulling these ideas out of my butt–they come out of secondhand engagement with the philosophical literature on gossip. Yes that exists. One of my good friends is very conversant on that literature and we’ve had talks on the topic.
There are important differences between gossip on the small scale and the large-scale gossip in gossip mags, to be sure. Small scale gossip tends to occur between people who know and trust each other, while large scale tabloid gossip tends to occur in a more unidirectional way. The large scale ones perhaps satisfy a gossip itch without directly performing the same function of sharing useful information as small scale gossip. Sure.
But what is gossip? It’s the sharing of information over a quasi-private network concerning issues that is considered by the culture at large to be unimportant and poorly sourced.
All large scale gossip publishing does is take the quasi-private part out of it.
And notice what’s happening with these issues right now–how men treat women in sex and sex-adjacent situations–was considered until recently to be a matter for privacy, but is more and more becoming considered a less private thing, a thing it is more okay to talk about in public.
Hence from quasi-private reporting of purportedly unimportant and poorly sourced information, on this topic, we are shifting towards more public reporting of the same information.
And now its import and its epistemological standards have become a more central part of that public conversation. And in order for us to do right by women, we should–not IGNORE men’s perspectives at all but–keep a focus on what the function of this information is supposed to be in the first place, rather than reflexively thinking about the consequences to men and the believability to men, we should be more reflexively thinking about the consequences to women, and the believability to women.
The move from private to public is almost inevitable. It’s happening. It’s still in the realm of gossip but it’s making that shift to gossip that’s more public. We have to think about the function and standards underlying the activity of gossip in order to think through how to deal with this now more public information.
“Then Frylock backed off and said ‘I intend to make this kiss more intense by introducing my tongue. Do you prefer a clockwise motion or otherwise?’”.
I mean, I am really confused here.
He can make a point to talk to knowledgable people about it, have some public conversations about it, write a heartfelt article (we already know he can write), stuff like that. People will come around.
Can you explain why I’m supposed to be coming up with these ideas?
That hurts a little bit. I have a great deal of respect for you but you are in this case dismissing some important ideas out of hand. See my prior medium sized post about the philosophy of gossip.
I’d feel like they were within their rights.
I’d also of course try not to put myself in a position where this would happen. Ansari failed to do that…
If he felt it was important that people know what she did, he should tell people what she did.
It’s really really rare that people think it’s important to tell about stuff like this.
The cases where they do are pretty special. And there’s usually a pretty good reason for it.
I mean, I started my participation in this thread pretty brashly and I might even say poorly. Some IRL stuff got in the way in my head. (To the Dope in general: I apologize but don’t promise it’ll never happen again. I maybe sometimes take out IRL anger on SD conversations. Yeah that happened hear early in the thread.)
So I don’t blame people for regarding me with a bit of “okay let’s back away slowly or let’s poke it, whichever’s safer or more fun.”
Because you are the one saying that he is responsible for making amends, and not only learning and growing from the encounter, but proving to the public that he has learned and grown.
Just asking what that looks like, in your mind.
I checked this message board specifically to see what you guys and gals are saying about this.
This is a long thread. I should have come here earlier.
I can see there’s a lot of passion on both sides of this topic. Other than saying that there seemed to be communication problems on BOTH sides… I’m not touching this with a ten foot pole. Does anyone agree/disagree with that?
You’re seriously confused? You are the guy going to bat for how it’s right that he be ostracized unless he shows contrition and you’re confused why you should spell out the path to contrition. What the flying fuck?
Sexual humiliation is shitty. She’s engaging in it, and you’re defending it as NBD, and engaging in some stuff I consider pretty much a sophistry to defend her behavior, and it’s pissing me off to the extent that I’d need the Pit to engage with you further on the issue.
If you have respect for me, consider me to spend my capital here to tell you I really, really think you should reconsider your attitude about publicly shaming people like this.
Ah… I guess that makes a kind of sense?
My apologies, I thought these answers were so… I’m sorry… obvious… that asking for them was some kind of game.
See above. Blame my naivete. I thought you were playing some kind of game because I thought it was really obvious.
Yes. Or maybe no. It’s hard to tell.
You would feel that were within their rights to accuse you of sexual assault? Okay then.
So, are you saying that you wouldn’t ever kiss a woman, or that you are so confident in your kissing abilities that no woman would ever complain?
Anyone can accuse me of anything… If she felt I had assaulted her, I’ve got some thinking to do about what I’m doing.
I’m saying I would
A. Mostly kiss people in a context of established trust
B. Make sure to the best of my ability that I don’t have any really weird offputting practices.