I not only agree with that, I would even put more of the blame for miscommunication on Aziz for the encounter. He should have picked up on things better, even though she was poorly communicating.
And that’s where it would be left, were it not for her publicly shaming him. That’s the part where she is indefensible, and he is blameless.
They aren’t obvious. The fact that you see it as obvious is a failing on your part, not mine. If he writes a “well written article” there’s plenty of people who’ll just just say meh, his PR people got together to mouth the words. There’s a reason “have you stopped beating your wife?” is a cliche.
Frylock has been pestering the English language to change into something more comfortable, he keeps trying to manipulate its nouns. It feels distressed and violated, and there is some controversy over whether an assault has occurred.
Totally agree.
This is why i phrased it carefully: “People will come around,” not “everybody will automatically believe him.” Not even “everybody will eventually believe him.”
Just “people will come around.”
I didn’t say it would be easy.
But it’s doable.
So far the only consequences I am seeing to him personally are that he is probably less likely to get a date for a while.
How big a deal is that to you guys?
Also, are there more serious consequences we know are happening, that I’m not aware of?
And what would that thinking look like?
What if the accusation is unwarranted? If you did nothing wrong, are you going to spend time thinking about what you are doing?
And how is that established? No kissing on the first date? Second? Third? No kissing without a notary public present?
And still, trust doesn’t make a kiss enjoyable. That requires much more subtle factors. No matter how trust is established, you may finally get that kiss, and she goes “bleh, that was horrible, you sexually assaulted me.”
For that, I would suggest avoiding the “Hey, lets do A, B, and C.” thing you were talking about in the other thread. That’s pretty offputting.
But, in any case, I’m not saying offputting, just that she doesn’t enjoy the kiss. It was not what she was expecting. She expected that an amazing stand up comedian lie yourself would be much better at kissing. In her disappointment at your lack of kissing skills, she accuses you of sexual assault.
In that situation, I would assume I had done something wrong. If after serious reflection I was really convinced that I didn’t do anything wrong, I would say so (assuming it became a real issue that was actually having an effect on me).
I would try to frame it non-confrontationally if possible, as a discussion about signals etc.
Most likely, though, I’d understand from her account and introspection what I had done to bother her, and I’d describe that and apologize and explain why I did it and why people can be confident I won’t in the future.
You’re asking me how people establish a relationship of trust. I don’t know that I need to describe the engineering details of that in order for it to be well understood that that’s a thing that happens and that most of us know how to do.
Looks like I fucked up then. But if I was careful about trust, the scenario you describe is extremely implausible.
To some, not to others. In a relationship of established trust, presumably I’d know if it was offputing or, if I didn’t know, she, trusting me, would realize I wasn’t trying to force something weird on her.
Ok, you used the word “obvious”. If Ansari disagreed with the timeline of events is it obvious that he should or shouldn’t dispute them? Or is it obvious he should politely refute her and say “mistakes were made”? Is it obvious that he should mention he’s had dozens of these types of hook ups before with no hurt feelings? I think you are saying he should just confess and crawl on the carpet, obviously, regardless of what he thinks actually happened.
This is remarkably tone-deaf, and ignores the sexual dimensions. If someone grabs my shoulder, it’s different from someone grabbing my crotch, because of the sexual dynamic at play. If someone tells a story about me that’s not about intimate sexual experiences, it’s different from someone telling sexual stories about me, because of the sexual dynamic at play.
There’s a reason why releasing a photograph of an ex, when the ex is fully dressed, is not a crime, but releasing a photograph of an ex, when the ex is naked, can be.
The consequence he’s suffered is humiliation. That’s a genuine consequence, and for a social creature like most human beings, it can be devastating. I really don’t see why you’re minimizing it; even if you’re not really worried about being sexually humiliated, it’s bizarre to universalize your own nonchalance to everyone else.
Oh, come on. She didn’t want to go out with him because she fell in lust with his big brown eyes; she wanted to go out with him because he was famous.
And he wanted to go out with her because she was easy.
Her intentions are clearly read in her behavior. She took a picture of them as a couple (“Here I am on a date with the famous comedian!”) She took a picture of the food. It is not clear how she expected her date with a famous person to end, but it seems to me she did not do what a person does on a first date with someone one doesn’t know well, i.e., meet at a neutral place, don’t go home with them, and don’t have sex on the first date unless you really, really want to, which obviously she did not.
His intentions are clearly read in his behavior, too. It’s also pretty clear how he expected the date to end. It probably wasn’t a very satisfying date for him, either. But again, he didn’t take the kind of first-date precautions I would expect a famous person to take. Or maybe he did, actually I don’t know what those might be. (Sign a release? Bet he does that next time.)
And then she took the awkward date in excruciating detail to social media, and it got big play only because he is a famous person. If this had played out with two ordinary unfamous people it would still be her friends going, “Ooh, what a dork,” and his friends going “Ooh, what a cocktease.” This probably happens a million times a day. There are a lot of bad first dates out there.
I am not saying he was above reproach. These were two people with two separate agendas, both inside their own agenda and not reading the other one’s signals, and being selfish. Soon to be a movie directed by Todd Solonz.
I’m not seeing a good guy in this and I’m not really seeing a bad guy either. This guy clearly didn’t know his moves, but she didn’t know hers either. Here is a clue for all you young things out there, kiss the person before you go back to their place. If it’s a great kiss that makes you want more, go ahead. If not, goodnight and you had a wonderful time (well not really and it ends here). Netflix and chill does not actually mean you are going to watch Netflix…
You may (but really may not) want to research revenge porn. No it is unfortunately not at all rare for people unhappy with a (most often former) sexual partner to try to get revenge by trying to publicly humiliate them with graphic details (including photos and videos) of their assumed to be private encounters.
If he doesn’t get dates I don’t care.
This could have affected his career seriously, not that I care that much about him in particular, but imperiling someone’s livelihood is a very serious matter. He’ll probably be ok because there is a backlash here, and the controversy is not dividing on the regular lines.
Again, I point out that I take the article at face value because it doesn’t portray ‘Grace’ in any better light than it does Ansari. She could have easily embellished her version and Ansari would have his career ruined from the allegations even if never proven, even if disproved.
Why are you "oh, come on"ing here? If you’re not saying his behavior was above reproach–if you’re willing to call him selfish and not knowing his moves–you’re not what I was talking about.
You asked me how he can convince people he’s changed his ways. I think I gave some decent answers to that.
You’re now asking more complicated questions, and the answers to these questions don’t seem obvious EVEN TO MEEEEEEEE
It’s my understanding that’s generally just to humiliate them by making private information public. Is it generally done in order to be critical of them in a way intended to warn others? I don’t think that’s typically what revenge porn is about. Is it?
“Your honor, yes, I admit I posted nude pictures of my ex-girlfriend on Reddit. But in my defense, I wanted everyone to know that she has veiny breasts.”
This helps me understand where you’re coming from…
I just kind of default to feeling sexually humiliated without any help from anyone else, indeed, against the heartfelt encouragement of others if I can say that…
So… yeah… I can see a possibility that my tendency to have issues here and to keep them to myself because why burden others etc etc… could cloud my view about the sgnificance of things.
I don’t know. I just don’t feel the seriousness of that. I feel like “meh he can buck up and get over that. That’s nothing.”
This has been TMI from Frylock
That’s not believable.
In the case of Grace it’s believable that she thought her action, while humiliating Ansari, served the purpose of warning others.
Yeah, that’s the point, it’s complicated. How exactly he goes about his “apology tour” to get forgiveness for having a bad date is not obvious.
You were trying to make it sound like it was.
I was assuming a big “if” I guess–“if” he is actually apologetic.
If he’s not, it would be more complicated.