Accepting for the sake of discussion that the recollections as reported by the article are 100% accurate, let’s discuss exclusively the actions of the guy.
Does his behavior constitute assault?
From the description it sounds like he was interested in a night of fun recreational no big emotional connection sex and thought she was too. He had no power over her, did not threaten or coerce her in any way. The fact that she apparently willingly participated in getting undressed together and giving each other oral sex also likely reinforced his understanding of the situation as such. He asked for penile vaginal intercourse (to “fuck her”) and heard a clear not on this date. Now she apparently meant no more anything that date, but per her telling it was in context of having had oral no problem and only in response to penile vaginal intercourse as a request. He then continued to request more hand and oral contact, attempting as best he could to give as well as receive. She asked to go and he called her an Uber.
His behavior per her telling of the events as reported? He failed to read her well and just as she was blindsided by his wanting something different than what she had fantasized him to be wanting, he was blindsided by her having a different goal for the night than he was thinking she had. He let his fantasies take over his brain. And he never assaulted her.
…I’m not playing moral authority at all and I’m not going to “take a hike.”
I’ve been listening to a lot of women today and yesterday talking about this and many of them are saying the same thing: what happened here is not uncommon, and what happened here is problematic. We can’t continue to not talk about this and we can’t afford to not listen and we can’t afford to not ask ourselves uncomfortable questions. James Cameron talked about a reckoning. There are things that might have been “acceptable” twenty years ago that won’t be acceptable today. There might be things that were acceptable yesterday that won’t be acceptable tomorrow. This conversation is going to happen whether you like it or not.
I probably could have worded that better and it was not intended as an insult, but someone who has been married for a while would know that ‘the only consent is enthusiastic consent’ is not a true statement.
Of course it is. But the argument that any issues like this are entirely the fault of the man are counterproductive and foolish, as they completely dismiss the responsibility and adulthood of the woman involved. And when you make excuses for her poor behavior in this situation and attack people who point it out, you also muddy the waters and diminish the adulthood of women everywhere.
Are women adults? Yes? Then they are responsible for their behavior as well, which makes it part of the conversation. She stayed, she participated in mutual oral sex. If she had not wanted to do so, she should have adulted up and left. That she remained and continued to participate, no matter how reluctantly, implies consent.
She did not and does not work for him, so there is no power dynamic here in that respect. She went on a date and participated in acts that she then regretted later. As I said earlier, congratulations, most of us have done things we later regretted. Not any part of that later regret absolves her of the responsibility for her acts, nor does it, as I said above, retroactively make his actions criminal.
You have now assaulted me. I gave clear verbal indication that I did not consent to you asking questions about my sex life. I am being victimized!
Married over 32 years. How my wife and I “do sex” is frankly not your business or at all relevant to any discussion here.
Relevant to the discussion is that what the woman by her report felt gave non-verbal signs that she believed should have been understood. And maybe her fantasy Ansari would have been a person who was tuned into reading them and not been as slow on the uptake as the real Ansari was. Real Ansari was not so great at understanding from her non-verbal cues, including that oral had become off the table. Somehow her taking his penis in her mouth after motioned for her to do so was misunderstood by him.
BigT literally proved my point by unironically posting a real-life example of exactly what I was talking about, two posts later.
No-one in this thread is supporting or defending actual, genuine sexual assault of the casting couch/Mad Men variety. Haranguing people for saying “This doesn’t sound like sexual assault and we only have one side’s version of events” is counterproductive; and literally saying “If you defend this person you’re defending a rapist and you’re disgusting” is particularly galling and needs to be called out too.
I would spank that monkey whether it liked it or not.
As for “period trapping”, one accomplished amateur feminist and relationship adviser eloquently describes it:
“Revealing to them that your pussy is in Red Sea territory will be the determining factor for finding out if they’re just hoeing it out with you, or if they’re actually interested in quality time.”
Have you not been following the #metoo, movement? The current standard is that if “you feel” it is. I mean l, even if we accept everything this lady has said, does not sell to rise to sexual assault. But the point is that “she feels”. So well, it is, therefore an example of sexual assualt. If you say otherwise, you are “denying her experience”, “mansplainin” are part of the “patriarchy”.
1> not all women are saying any such thing and,
2> There have always been outliers who make such claims, and
3> They’re neither correct nor are they helping things.
Should a woman prioritize her comfort over her safety? Which is the more “responsible” position to take?
I don’t think she behaved poorly at all.
Can you elaborate on when she acted poorly?
How does this “adulthood” thing work? I think that we can accept what happened to Angelina Jolie and Lucia Evans and Ashley Judd and Rose McGowan and hundreds of others were adults when Weinstein did what he did with them, and we can accept that, despite their status as having achieved “adulthood” that they still were helpless to do the “adult thing” and simply say no.
Can you accept that there are degrees? That Ansari is no-where near as bad as Weinstein, but his behavior was still problematic?
You make “walking away” sound so easy. But women know the minefield they have to walk through when an encounter goes bad. If they head for the door is he going to grab her? Is he going to hit her? They play along. Its a defense mechanism. To stay safe.
I’m not saying that this is what happened here. We don’t know exactly what happened here. But I’m not making judgement on either party. I don’t know enough. But I do know that if we accept what has been said then the degree of blame your putting on one party is completely out of proportion. The adult thing to do here was for Ansari to have accepted that things weren’t going to go any further and he could have pulled the playstation out and they could have played games all night. If the “adult thing to do” was for her to leave, wasn’t it also the “adult thing to do” for him to stop?
I’ve bolded the problematic part of your statement.
“No matter how reluctantly.”
“Implies consent.”
Implied consent is simply not good enough. Being reluctant does not imply consent. It does the complete opposite.
Consent is explicit. It doesn’t have to be verbal. If your partner is reluctant, then why are you insisting?
Lets ignore whether or not these were criminal actions or not.
Should sex be a mutually pleasurable act?
This is what she texted immediately after she left the apartment.
“I had to say no a lot. He wanted sex. He wanted to get me drunk and then fuck me.” She texted another friend after she got back to her apartment, “I’m taking a bath I’m really upset I feel weird.”
Do you think that its fair to characterize that as “participating in acts that she then regretted later?”
That looks to me like someone who was upset during the encounter and said exactly that at the first possible opportunity. I’m not seeing regret. I’m seeing disgust. Upset.
She kept saying no. But she kept saying yes with her actions. She remained, she continued to participate. Hell yes, he’s a creep for what he did. But she isn’t guiltless here. She constantly made choices that were wrong, then regretted them later. She doesn’t get a pass for that and AGAIN, it doesn’t make his actions criminal.
…you seem confused, as you didn’t answer my question.
You are under no obligation to answer my question, but responding to me kinda implies you want to tell me something, but I’m not entirely sure what that is.
If someone accepts a penis in their mouth, is this explicit consent for future sexual relations, or implied consent for future sexual relations, or is it only consent for putting the penis in the mouth?
Doesn’t that suggest, that maybe she meant no? Are you suggesting that no actually means yes?
Wouldn’t that also suggest, that maybe her actions could have been coerced? Surely you agree that this is a possibility? She succumbed so that things didn’t get worse?
Of course she remained. Women remain all the time. Does it “make sense” that women stay with abusers, even though the “adult thing to do” would be to leave the first time they get hit?
“Remaining” doesn’t suggest anything. It certainly doesn’t imply “guilt.”
Come on, dude. Those two situations are not even remotely comparable.
Abused women don’t leave for a variety of reasons including not having anywhere to go, fear the abuser will find them and hurt them (or their family), fear their family will blame them for bringing shame by displeasing the husband so greatly, not having any money to pay for relocation etc, having kids to look after, or a million other reasons.
It’s not even remotely comparable to a woman who’s discovered the celebrity she is hooking up wants things to move a bit faster than she expected and the only thing stopping her from leaving is the effort required to open the Uber app on her phone and summon a ride home.
Yes. Saying no while continuing to participate is a contradiction. It is not an ‘explicit’ rejection.
If someone asks you to do something and you say no, but do it anyway, you’re making a choice and you’re sending mixed messages. Your actions say ‘Yes’. Of course the other party will think “she says no, but she keeps doing it, so I’ll just see where she stops.”
I note that at no point does she claim that he removed her pants to perform oral sex on her, which indicates that she made a conscious choice to remove her own clothing and allow him to do it. That is a clear ‘yes’ regardless of what came out of her mouth.
This sort of thing really doesn’t help anyone. You’re blaming him and excusing her, based on her wishy-washy behavior. You’re denying her personal responsibility for what she did and you’re muddying the waters of the general discussion of consent.
…of course they are comparable. Both are situations where if you apply “logic” then the correct thing to do is simply leave.
But there is more to it than simply that.
And in situations like this there often is a genuine fear that the other party will hurt them, will find them and hurt them later, there is fear that the other party will “slut shame” which will bring “shame” on her.
This is your characterization of the event. Its your narrative, your version.
Are you aware of my personal history at all? I’ve provided it enough times on this board. I was the victim of serious physical violence and emotional abuse during my marriage. I was violently assaulted in my sleep on three occasions.
Being in an abusive relationship is a very complicated matter in all respects. If you haven’t survived one, I’d like you to stop trying to claim any kind of authority on the matter or using it as an example here. It has nothing to do with this event.