Y’all do recognize this is curlcoat you are engaging with? She’s just doing the same attention whoring using the same baiting tactics she’s done before. She has no interest in reducing her ignorance; only in forcing another thread to revolve around her. She’s merely an opportunistic antivaxxer because it irritates and gets her some attention and some illusion of power in what she has previously described as a pretty pathetic life of chronic disease and cats who mean more than children. Knock yourselves out if you want but don’t expect to accomplish anything other than feeding the troll.
As I was writing that I had a hunch, yeah. Meh.
The combo vaccine for dogs contains parvo, distemper, hepatitis, and parainfluenza. Lepto is sometimes included or not in that combo, depending on age, activity level, geography, etc. My dog doesn’t get bordatella, but if she were a regular boarder she would probably get it. So many dogs still get parainfluenza and/or lepto depending on the combo they’re receiving. It may seem less to you since they’re only getting 1 shot that covers them all.
So it seems they’ve gotten rid of the vaccines they’ve found are not useful. BTW, they are still developing vaccines for other diseases, including cancer.
What I wrote was a quick example on how that article hasn’t been updated recently, and moreover, newer articles are refuted by the same authors (or most of them).
During my epidemiology class, we were taught a well controlled study was worth more than retrospective, prospective, and case studies report.
I could look up more tomorrow, when I’m at work with the nice database and internet. But I’m really not against a decrease in the number of boosters (meaning same antigens jabbed repeatedly in the animals).
Humans, though, get more jabs because they are vaccinated against more diseases and many of them are not polyvalent to the degree they are in animals (not just dogs). They’re not being as constantly exposed to the same antigens as dogs.
The first side effects listed for those in dogs, though, are very similar to the side effects mentioned for humans when they are getting vaccines, so that part is not different. I had to read those side effects when I got my rabies, flu, and Gardasil shots as an adult.
BTW, IIRC the CDC schedule said that HepB vaccines could be delayed if they HepB status of the mom was known. From the seminar I attended at the CDC, it seems HepB predisposes (in adults) to certain types of hepatic tumors, therefore getting the vaccine as a kid is a good thing. But other doctors of the human-treating kind can talk about that.
I can see no curlcoat’s point. There is a hypothetical possibility that there may be some undetermined link between some vaccines and some food allergies for which we have no evidence while, according to the American Medical Association, there is only a clear link between the reduction of deaths in children and vaccines:
Disease Annual Deaths Annual Deaths
pre-vaccine post-vaccine
Diptheria 1822 0
Measles 440 0
Mumps 39 0
Pertussis 4038 27 [Frequently skipped by anti-vax parents]
Poliomyeliteis, acute 1393 0
Poliomyelitis, paralytic 1879 0
Rubella 17 0
Smallpox 337 0
Tetanus 611 4 [Not administered without a wound]
Chickenpox 86 19
Thank you for doing the research - I was posting at lunch and didn’t have time to go hunting.
curlcoat, from your recent questions I know you haven’t read this link. Why don’t you try informing yourself a little bit about what we’re talking about here and come back and have another go at a discussion?
Too late, dopers’ insistence on actual research and statistics in the face of narrow experience and half-remembered history have driven her off and she will have naught to do with the likes of us again. Off she rides on her 12-foot horse, secure in her knowledge that while she may be ignorant, we are all but sheep blindly following what the doctors tell us to do. Long lived and healthy sheep, but sheep nonetheless.
Well, I would just like to chime in and say that as a child I developed pneumonia as a complication of chickenpox. So, yes, it can be serious.
You must be mistaken-nothing really bad happened to ** curlcoat**, therefore nothing ever would.
Oh piss off you asshole. I ask some questions and I get mommies freaking out at me because I don’t blindly accept everything I’m told. As for actual research and stats, I did read it and all it said was - surprise! - vaccines prevent disease (usually). Nothing about the question I actually asked - is anyone checking on whether all these vaccinations might be caused immune problems later on. Some of your precious cites actually suggested that the chickenpox vaccine, for one, isn’t a good idea.
The really stupid part is I knew this was going to happen and tried to prevent it by repeating that I am not a parent and never will be, so it’s not like I have unvaxed kids out there killing yours. There is just no talking to parents about children in anything approaching intelligently. You all keep your heads in those holes in the sand and never wonder why you have so many kids with food allergies and asthma all you want - not my problem.
I am aware of that, stated as much somewhere up thread.
Well, actually, those of us who do dogsports have our dogs out pretty much every day exposing them to the infectious diseases that dogs can get. Mine go to at least two obedience classes, one field training class and one agility class each week, as well as trials for those three things on the weekends and the more or less regular trips to PetCo. All of those are in different places, so they aren’t going to the same “school” every day, meeting the same “kids”.
It tends to be the opposite these days. Pet people who take their dog to the vet for an annual exam tend to vaccinate more than the average show dog person. Most dog people do their own vaccinations these days due to the cost of a vet office visit, and the trend is to follow Dr Dodds’ protocols which call for boosters done far less frequently than annually. More vets are starting to follow that as well, so it may be that the average pet is getting boosters less frequently too, I don’t know - my vet hasn’t come around to it yet…
Oh please. What did I wave away, other than you all assuming that because my personal experiences with childhood diseases was different from yours somehow meant that I didn’t believe yours? No, what happened here is you all - again - jump on the person who doesn’t agree with your bias without any questions. There was never any agenda even indicated, which also shows how much bias you have. This sort of childishness is getting tiring, which is why I am not going to try to slog thru it in this thread.
I got pertussis as a teenager, despite having been fully vaccinated. That one tends to wear off in adolescence sometime. I think they’re now recommending a booster. So I wouldn’t lay those cases solely at the feet of the anti-vax parents (although they’re contributing to weakening the herd, no doubt).
Oh, and even though it’s not usually life-threatening for older kids, I missed six weeks of school and had another six weeks that I could only go partial days. It’s not a disease to take lightly, even when it doesn’t kill.
There have been for a few years a rabies vaccine that was researched and approved for use for 3 years. Many vets (and regulating authorities) have switched to that.
Combo vaccines with lepto (the one I’m more familiar, being from areas that are at risk) have not been approved for more than one year, and it is thought that although most of the components retain their titers, the lepto portion (which is also the one that causes more side effects) is less effective. Vets that keep vaccinating with that one every year are following label recommendation (although I’ve seen them skipped for geriatric animals and animals with other problems, plus I’m sure some would like to vaccinate less). Also, as said above, those vaccine times are the only times many animals go to the doctor to get a physical. It is their one chance to get looked over, be dewormed, and for the owners to talk about any doubts/concerns with the vet. Granted, this can be done without vaccines. But for some people, THAT is what brings them and their pets in.
Your comment about pet owners vaccinating their pets. I’m not going to say much except that, at least in the jurisdictions I’ve lived, rabies vaccines have to be given by a vet, and a tag is given along with the shot (or in Baton Rouge, a yearly tag is given after vaccination with the 3-years vaccine and paying of annual registration). I don’t know where you live, so I don’t know if this applies to your area.
And btw, boosters, again, are not the same as first time inoculations with a novel antigen in kids.
Think about it, in humans, the equivalent to annual boosters in dogs would be getting your whole series again every 5-7 years once you reach adulthood. Which of course most people haven’t. Even tetanus is once every 10 years.
Well, if I had followed the advice of my now family doctor, my kids would have gotten fewer vaxes in the early years. The vax schedule here is different from the one in the US which caused some confusion when we moved – Eldest was nearly 5 then and Youngest was 2. So most of the ones they don’t give here, my kids had already had.
The ones which are considered not necessary here are the Hep vaccines (A and B), the varicella, and I think the rotavirus. People keep asking me why you would vax against chickenpox, or why they were both vaxed against HepB as infants. (They thought I must have HepB). I told them what some guy at the CDC told me when I called and asked the same question: because that’s when we have them. I thought that was a very good answer, actually. If you are going to approach a disease as a public health matter in the US, you are going to get the best coverage through infant vaccination. Around here, they spread some of them out more and get other vaxes at later ages because kids keep going for regular checkups and so on right on through adulthood. I hazard to guess that the rate of adults current on their vaxes is also higher (I sometimes wonder how many of the people who argue vehemently for complying with the current child vax schedule are themselves current on their vaxes. Here is the adult schedule for those who would like to check).
The many vaxes are okay with me; my own father was in the public health service working in Clean Water (this means, working with contaminated water, lol) so he and we got more vaxes than you can shake a stick at. I seem to recall that we even got yellow fever, though I would have to ask my mother to be sure. No reactions, not so much as even a fever amoung the 6 of us so I was more sanguine than most about holding my kids down for the needle. However, I do think the immediate attack on anybody who so much as muses that they might vary from the CDC schedule is…well, I suppose it is an understandable backlash. But it is counterproductive it seems to me.
If I understand your question, some vaccine shots are combinations, like MMR is Measles/Mumps/Rubella, and DPT is Diphtheria/Pertussis/Tetanus. Varicella is chicken pox.
Hib is Haemophilus influenzae type b. DTap is for the same diseases as DPT, but is a newer, “acellular” form that produces fewer side-effects.
There isn’t any damage or trauma to the immune system from vaccination, if that is the concern. Vaccines stimulate the immune response, just without the trauma of contracting the disease. For example, the measles vaccine was not available when I was young, and I contracted the disease when I was six. As a result, I have some minor hearing loss in my left ear. My younger sister was vaccinated (the measles vaccine became available in 1963) and never got the disease. But we have the same immune response - neither of us is going to get measles again. Neither of our immune systems has been damaged - both work as they are supposed to do, by producing antibodies against previously encountered diseases. In my case, it is at the cost of some hearing loss; in my sister’s case, at the cost merely of the vaccine.
Regards,
Shodan
Exactly right. The waning immunity and the mild disease in adults was partly responsible for pertussis outbreaks, along with the children more likely to get severe disease who were totally unprotected. A pertussis booster is now part of the tetnus booster (which, as Karl notes, adults should get every ten years even if they often do not). The similar circumstance may be, as noted in a previous post, contributory to the recent Hib meningitis deaths in Minnesota: some immunity waning because a vaccine shortage is forcing us to withhold the booster vaccine causing a decrease in herd immunity which shows up most significantly in the completely unimmunized. Of course with pertussis some of the worst cases were in infant siblings of older unvaccinated childen - the elder getting perhaps quite annoyingly ill, but the infant getting life-threateningly so.
The concept that some anti-vaxxers have of delaying is particularly idiotic. The risks such as they are are fairly fixed quantities whether you get the shots early or late while the disease severity and frequency for most (admittedly not all but especially the ones the antivaxxers fixate on) of these are greatest in the younger age groups. Getting the vaccine that you perceive to be risky after the point that its greatest good would be done is a particularly silly way to place your bet.
Sure, if that necessarily worked.
I was exposed to chicken pox quite a few times as a child - my sister had it, my cousins that lived down the street had it, my classmates had it, and never got it. I was even tested for anti-bodies before I was vaccinated when I was about 15, and didn’t have them, so I was not immune.
This isn’t as uncommon as you seem to think.
Is that what they’re calling it these days?
You’ve said specifically that because you have no personal experience with some of the things discussed, you’re skeptical that those things are concerns. You ignored information provided to you that childhood diarrhea is indeed a more concerning condition (even if it is a symptom of disease rather than a disease itself) than adult diarrhea. You’ve ignored information given to you that vaccines do not cause significantly increased problems later in life. You’ve ignored discussions regarding the lack of scientific connection between vaccines and allergies.
Wrong again. You’re not being “jumped on” - that ignorance that you claim you wanted fought? Is being corrected, by medical doctors, scientists, and other people who have done more reading and research into the field than you have. You, however, continue to question this information in irrational and illogical ways.
This is your MO, as I stated before. You present a ridiculously ignorant, BLATANTLY ignorant viewpoint, and when you are provided with information illustrating the gaps in your personal knowledge, you refuse to acknowledge the validity of that information.
Jackmannii had you pegged correctly. You are an anti-vaxxer who is careful not to present as such. Therefore, you did not enter this discussion in good faith - it was never your intention to listen to information that fought your supposed ignorance on this subject.
Actually that’s very much the MO of many anti-vaxxers. Many times they don’t generally come out against vaccines in general.
What they do is pick apart vaccines piece by piece in the most disingenous way possible.
Oh they aren’t really against vaccines.
They just want them delayed. Or spaced out. Or they don’t want certain vaccines. Or they want to allegedly make them better and safer as the supposed green our vaccines movement (led by Jenny “I got my phd from google,” McCarthy) claims.
This sort of discussion isn’t generally entered into good faith. The purpose isn’t to discuss vaccines but to stir up fear. More importantly it is often to demonstrate that the anti-vaxxer isn’t really an ill informed lunatic inclined to believe in whatever conspiracy theories happen to be fashionable at the moment. The purpose is to demonstrate that the anti-vaxxer has done her “homework” on vaccines (i.e. read Mothering Magazine and listened to a neighbor and maybe even looked up Barbara Loe Fisher’s misleading website) and by god knows what she’s talking about even if the last biology class she took was in tenth grade and that was twenty years ago.
In general very little will dissuade her from her viewpoint. She expects that others will salute her for having it and come to her for advice on the subject.