See, this is what I’m talking about. We don’t think you’re all rapists!! Honest!! We are able to distinguish someone simply asking for information about rape and someone who has committed rape. We do NOT lump you all in the same group.
Well, not so much “say” as try to understand that what we are telling you is more than just theory. We’re not asking for apologies, here. Again, we’re not holding you responsible.
No. It doesn’t. Honest. And, you need to not be so defensive.
I give up.
Thank goodness someone appears to have read something I actually typed. Once again, thanks for the consideration.
But my mind is wide open on this. I just find the notion that women have absolutely no power to avoid rape in at least some situations to be astonishing. And disingenuous. OK, so I’m naive. Sucks to be me.
Could you just do one thing for me, pretty please? Simply state, in your own words, that there is not one possible action that any woman could ever take, in any conceivable universe, that might increase her level of safety? Also, please state, for the record, that rape bears no resemblance, in any way, to sex, in the emotional, logical, or physical sense of either, um, “participant.”
Say these things in all honesty – hell, lie through your teeth if you want to – and I’ll drop the subject. I’ll even agree with you wholeheartedly. I might even join with you arguing against the Neanderthal thickheaded males on this board. I promise.
And looking over this post, I see that scotch and anger are starting to look like a very bad combination. 
I’m signing out for the night.
Be well, all.
Man oh man, could this whole “Mars/Venus” thing be for real? Sad, sad.
Right back atcha, babe. There’s been far too much of that in this thread, on both sides. But I do feel like I (and others) have been attacked in this thread, and just for voicing honest questions and seemingly sensible advice.
OK, signing out for real this time. Bye.
No. A better analogy would be “Forcing mashed potatoes down someone’s esophagus has nothing to do with eating.”
I would like to apologize for the preceding post. It was a thought that occurred to me in the heat of the moment, and I reconsidered it a half-second after I hit “Submit Reply.” I have no experience whatsoever with rape or rape victims, so I have even less of a right to post drive-bys than usual. Sorry. Go on with your debate.
Woman here. As puzzled as tdn is about how rape isn’t about sex. … Rape IS the coersion of another human being by force (physical or emotional) to engage in an unwanted sex act. How is that not about sex again?
If, for the word ‘sex’, you are using it to mean ‘consentual intercourse between two beings’, then yes, I suppose I understand how you arrive at rape isn’t ‘sexual’. However for the most widely used and understood meaning of the word ‘sex’, it means:
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sex) -
“4. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior.
5. Sexual intercourse.”
The other definitions have to do with ‘sex’ as it’s used in only a ‘defining gender’ sense. Note that nothing in the definitions above mention anything about consent. One can NOT consent to sex, and still have sex, still have intercourse. In other words, be raped.
I quite honestly don’t understand this effort to claim that rape doesn’t have anything to do with sex. Of course rape is about violence, about domination, about humiliation, about submission, force and power. But it’s also all those things funneled through a sexual act. If not, why didn’t the assailant choose to just tie the victim up, or cart him/her off and beat him senseless? Why introduce sexuality into the assault if it’s not about sex?
Being raped (a non-consentual sexual act) doesn’t place blame on the victim by the mere fact that it was sexual. In fact, there was no fault to the victim at all, I think all right-minded people in this thread agree with that. It doesn’t matter what they wore, where they were, how they acted that the rapist decided to victimize them in a sexual act.
Perhaps this is a debate about semantics - maybe you feel that to be ‘sex’, it has to be consentual. Maybe that’s where this whole issue breaks down. I don’t know. I really am mystified.
I’ll admit I didn’t read every post in this thread. Or the original thread it’s responding to. I’ll also admit I’m probably an idiot to go jumping into the middle of such a controversial issue for no compelling reason. But here goes.
First off, a thirteen year old is not an infant. Somebody that age might not be completely mature in their judgement but they’re old enough to understand that criminals exist and that innocent people are victimized by them.
Secondly, the person who commits the crime is the only one responsible for the crime. Doesn’t matter if it’s rape, murder, theft, or whatever. But …
Thirdly, while crime victims are not responsible for crimes, they are responsible for the decisions they make. And some decisions people make in life are more likely to make them the victims of a crime. To make a hopefully non-controversial analogy, if I choose to regularly park my car with the windows rolled down and the keys in the ignition, it’s not surprising that I’m a lot more likely to become the victim of a car thief.
Fourthly, pretending there is no such thing as behavior that makes a person more likely to be a crime victim is wrong. Crimes happen but the victims are rarely random. Making people aware of the factors that make them more likely to become a victim helps them to avoid them and avoid becoming a victim.
Oh.
Suddenly I understand.
Thank you.
I like the part where we call** Prisoner ** a big, dumb idiot.
For the record, I do.
I was also sexually assaulted when I was fourteen. (It was, effectively, a rape attempt; the only thing I was capable of was locking my arms around my body to prevent him from prying them up and getting access, the only thought I had in my head was “I don’t even have my periods yet!”) It was something like four or five years later that I was capable of talking about it with anyone, at all. I can’t be surprised that people don’t hear about rapes, not when I can still feel out the fracture lines in my own mind that make it hard to even formulate the words. (The first time I ever told the whole story to anyone was in a journal post I made last August. That’s a little more than twelve years after the fact.)
When I asked my mother if she ever wondered why I broke up with that boyfriend, she shrugged and said, “I figured he’d forced himself on you.” Like it was something normal. Like it was just something that happens, that even having the suspicion of it wasn’t a good enough reason to ask.
What did I do to “cause” that? I trusted the people who told me that I had to say “Yes” for sex to happen.
And I trusted that someone who claimed to love me wouldn’t invite me over to watch a movie in order to have the opportunity to pin my body down with his superior mass and try to force my limbs into a position that would let him pull my clothes off and get access to my genitalia.
Some people protect themselves by giving up trust. That would mean never being in situations where that trust could be betrayed, after all. That could be an action that would lead to greater safety, at the cost of actually having a life worth living.
Yes, I know I promised to sign off, but I got a little curious.
And I have to say, that was one excellent post. Agreed, agreed, and ageed.
[QUOTE=tdn]
I’m glad you mentioned that I’m well intentioned (hey, that rhymes!). It was feeling like no matter what I said, I’m still the big bad rapist in everyone’s eyes here. Thanks.
And I’m NOT still in that mindset of the dark place. And yet, every time I hear of a rape in this area, it’s always a lone woman in a secluded area. The last one I heard of was next to the pond behind my apartment. Seems like common sense, upon hearing that, to avoid that area. My girlfriend has since never been back.
And realize that sometimes there’s just nothing you can do. Nobody likes it, but, well, there it is. Sometimes life sucks.
All I’m saying is take care of yourself. Apparently that makes me some sort of horrible monster. Fine, don’t take care of yourself. There, that should redeem me in your eyes.
Now you’re just being silly. But what if said convenience store had such a murder every week? Would it be smart or dumb for you to patronize that store?
tdn I thought I’d clarify a few things. I think we may be talking at cross purposes here.
First, noone here (and most certainly not me) considers you to be a Monster or Horrible or a big bad rapist. I am glad that this discussion is taking place, and think that it should take place more often between genders. I am sorry that you feel attacked or ganged up on–that was not my intent.
Do you see the limitations that rape puts on your GF? Now, she can’t go to that pond. Where is the next “off limits” place for her? How narrow does her world get? She has a right to move about freely, no? No-she doesn’t.
But not only is this mindset so damaging–it is also dangerous, because it leaves people with a false sense of security–if I do X(don’t go to the pond, don’t drink at parties, carry mace whatever), then rape won’t happen.
That is not true. You are correct that a safety tip MAY prevent a rape here or there(and they may not)–but they do not solve the problem of rape as a whole.
I have been addressing that, and you are being more specific in your focus.
Is that it?
As to the convenience store analogy–you missed my point. If a crime of violence is commited against a woman in the course of her daily errands, no blame or judgement is placed upon her. If a rape occurs to the same woman under the same circumstances, blame and/or judgement IS placed upon her.
The location of the convenience store is irrelevant to my point. It doesn’t matter (or it shouldn’t matter) what the reputation is of the store (or the woman, for that matter). I get what you are saying about if the store was robbed repeatedly, it shouldn’t be considered a safe place for women, but damn–aren’t we entitled to go to convenience stores, too? What if it’s the only one close by? How complicated do our lives have to get to avoid the possiblity of the appearance that we didn’t “do” enough to prevent being raped?
Sex is very different from what is sexy.
THANK you. At the end of it, that is what it’s really all about. It is not up to us to not get raped. It is up to the jerk to NOT RAPE US.
Maendosa, several of us have said it before, but I am willing to say it yet again.
Rape is the physical act of aggression, and it is designed to humiliate and hurt. Most rapists admit that the sexual act itself is distasteful to them, it is simply a way to further hurt the victim. Let me say that again. Rape is the most damaging act they can imagine to inflict upon the victim. How, to you, does this construe as an act of sex? Simply because a penis is involved? How about if, as alice pointed out, he used a broom handle? Or his fist? Is it still sex? Because those things happen. It is an attack in every sense of the word.
As soon as the word “no” comes out of the woman’s (or other man’s) mouth, and the man continues, it is no longer about sex, but about force.
I would construe the above situations to be unconsentual sexual acts being forced on someone else. Rape. Sexual assault (penis in vagina, penis in ass, penis in mouth, broomstick, fingers, vegetable matter, whatever, to be blunt) forced onto someone in an unwanted and completely vile act of humiliation and malice. Of course it’s an attack, regardless of the impliments used.
Rape is indeed one of the most damaging acts one can inflict on someone else precisely because the sexual act, and one’s sexuality is one of the most intimate, personal things a being has. Rip away the ability to control when and where you engage in sexual acts and you have indeed violated someone in one of the most harmful ways possible.
Unreal. But you see, the victim is not engaging in a sexual act.
However. If a former district attorney with extensive experience in rape cases, a nurse with experience in dealing with rape victims, and several rape victims are unable to convince you after two hundred some posts, then I guess you really, REALLY want to believe it’s sex.
Thanks for furthering the whole idea that rape is a sex act. It isn’t like that attitude totally undermines attempts to educate why it’s wrong or anything. :rolleyes:
I think (maybe) I can see where we are having the breakdown of communication, here, and it seems to be mindset vs. action.
If I slap my child’s hand, that is an act I have performed. I could have slapped my child’s hand because I am a child abuser and I wish to hurt my child. I could have slapped my child’s hand because he was about to grab a pot of hot oil on the stove. No matter my mindset, I have still performed the act of slapping the child’s hand.
I think we are becoming confused because some of us on focusing on a mindset (what it’s about) and some of us are focusing on an act (the physical action that occurred independent of intention).
I agree that rape is not about sex. It’s about power, degradation, humiliation, and violence.
The act of rape, according to legaldefinitions.com, dictionary.com, and Webster.com, involves sex.
None of these address mindset of the victims or attackers. They address only the physical definition of the actions that took place.
I repeat, rape is about violence. I’d venture a guess that the average mind of a rapist involves only thoughts of causing pain , humiliation, and exerting some twisted form of dominance over another human in the most ruthless an effective means at their disposal. It just so happens the attacker chooses a sex act to accomplish that.
FB, raped twice at age 16, then again at age 17.
Okay. FB, I appreciate you pointing out that distinction. We spent most of this morning and early afternoon arguing whether or not it was about sex, and you’re right, I am still of that mind set. Thank you for pointing that out.