These men were probably young and maybe a little naive, but do you think that part of the problem was that these guys had already learned in their young lives that even if a woman agrees and wants sex that she can simply say that she didn’t want it later and get an innocent man thrown in prison?
Who believes this? Can you link to any evidence of this? Thank you.
Correct, the victim is not ‘engaging’ in a sexual act. They’re having a sex act forced on them. Again, nothing implicit in the word ‘sex’ means ‘consentual’. A rapist is forcing themselves in a sexual manner on the victim in an effort to humiliate, dominate, overpower, strip them of humanity, etc etc.
Tell me, why would the word ‘rape’ be associated with sex, indeed, be classified as a sex crime, if it wasn’t about sex? Why are rapists listed on ‘sexual offender’ registries? Why not call just rape assault? Why differentiate it from other violent attacks if it’s simply an act of power and force, humiliation and all the rest? Why don’t we call a mugging rape? Why isn’t murder called rape? It too is an act of violence, domination and power. And more importantly, how is acknowledging that rape is an act of violent, non-consentual sexual assualt undermining attempts to educate that it’s wrong? When someone says ‘no’, when someone doesn’t give consent, and the rapist continues, that’s wrong. What the hell is the victim saying no to, a violent beating?
And why would you assume that I don’t have firsthand knowledge of what I’m discussing?
It’s not that weird though. Rape is a really horrible thing. I think that the thought (or knowlege of) such a thing can make people talk about it irrationally. In this way it is something like religion.
If you choose to dive into a discussion on such a delicate subject— beware–emotions often override logic.
Did you even bother to read the linked thread from the OP? You’re welcome.
Yes it is. It is an act of sex using physical force and aggression to achieve the desired results.
Sometimes that is the main objective. Sometimes the main objective is to fuck-- regardless of the cost or consequences.
Can you offer some examples of this?
Prisoner is a fucking idiot. Do you have any cites of (otherwise) reasonable people?
First, while I cannot speak for the others in this thread, I have not taken offense at any of the posts by anyone–I don’t even know who is male or female here (well, Maureen aside…).
In no way am I blaming men–for what? For taking part in a discussion about rape? For rape? For the evil other men perpetrate? Now who is being silly?
I think that it is rather the case that this is such a painful subject for all, that none can help getting defensive.
I Love Me --I fail to see the reason for the condescension here–where is the logic being overridden?
tdn has said repeatedly that being safe and acting prudently will spare some women, some rapes. I have agreed with him, but think he is missing the point.
IMO, most of the safety tips are a moot point–noone can ever plan for all contigencies–something that tdn has not acknowledged. Indeed, I know anectdotally from friends that all the safety tips in the world won’t help a 5 ft 100 lb woman against a 6’2" 200lb assailant–but I guess, like was said before–life sucks, eh.
Short of getting into a rapist’s mind(and I am sure that some sociologist has, somewhere), none of us know the motive for any rape. If rape does indeed involve some type of sexual impulse or stimulus(and I have grave doubts of that), those feelings/impulses are all on the part of the rapist. To me, it’s a moot point–who cares what his motive is? And it also looks like the top of the slippery slope–if rape is in any mite sexual, then the woman CAN be blamed for provocation via dresss, behavior etc. I do NOT suscribe to such BS, but IMO, it is one of the ways that rape is “condoned” in our society.
To rid our society of this, we need to educate people–and talk about rape. And not just the prurient stuff–talk about ways to stop it(not the safety tips-I mean the causes), study the male psyche and profile rapists. Figure out the risk factors that might turn a man into a rapist etc. Stop cordoning off random areas of life and say that women can’t go here or there–women have a right to freedom of movement.
I, too, feel like I’m stepping back into the piranha pool here. But I’ve got a question.
Those of you who are saying that rapists admit they find the act of sex disgusting, but that they’re using it to hurt thier victims: can you link to some studies of this? My gut instinct, which may well be wrong, is that these are interviews with stranger-rape rapists, not with acquaintance-rape rapists, that there may be differences in motives between the two groups; and that if we’re to educate men in a way that will discourage them from becoming rapists (which I wholeheartedly agree is the best way to minimize rapes), we’ve got to acknowledge any such difference.
But like I said, I could be wrong, and that date-rapists also generally find the act of sex distasteful. I’d like to see some studies on the issue, therefore.
Daniel
I would not describe this group of college juniors and seniors as naive. I would describe them as assholes who have already learned that they can be predators and get what they want without asking at least partly because “people” like you will jump to defend their actions and cast doubt on any whom object to them taking what they want and what they feel entitled to.
Around the same time as this, a “he said/she said” rape accusal/denial was going on. A female student said she was raped and reported it, but public opinion was that she should not have reported it because:
[ul]
[li]The guy was a nice guy, popular athlete etc.[/li][li]She got what she should have expected what with walking by herself after dark two blocks from a concert to her dorm.[/li][li]She should be grateful someone so nice had wanted her.[/li][/ul]
The facts as agreed in the court of public opinion were:
[ul]
[li]She had been at a concert with her friends and began to feel quite ill. The illness was not due to drink or drugs.[/li][li]She asked that one of her friends escort her to her room, but no one would because they wanted to see the rest of the concert.[/li][li]She decided to walk to her dorm.[/li][li]This athlete encountered her, took her to a disused shuttle bus and had sex with her.[/li][li]They had not previously dated.[/li][/ul]
I still don’t understand the general reaction, since no one seemed to think she would have felt up to doing anything at all. They did not seem to think that she had ever really consented, just that she should not cry rape. So I don’t doubt that these young men I was speaking to knew full well that they would be able to shift the blame to their victims and not have any worries.
Okay, maybe I can explain why the “rape is not about sex” idea frightens me:
If a teenage boy really wants to have sex, and if his date is resisting, and if he’s not especially interested in dominating her as a goal in itself, AND if he’s heard that rape is not about sex, THEN there’s a good chance that he won’t recognize that his insistence on having sex is going to constitute rape. And he might go ahead.
If a teenage boy really wants to have sex, and if his date is resisting, and if he’s not especially interested in dominating her as a goal in itself, BUT he’s heard that sometimes people commit rape just because they want to have sex, THEN there’s a good chance that he will recognize that his insistence on having sex is going to constitute rape. And that recognition might be enough to stop him.
I don’t think that saying rape is sometimes about sex in any way decreases its horror or lets the rapist off. On the contrary, I fear that saying it’s not about sex allows some rapists to deny the reality and atrocity of what they’re doing, if for them it is about sex.
Daniel
Can anyone find a current link to thise news story from within the last four months? A woman shot her husband. Her daughter had accused him of raping her and getting her pregnant. The authorities found this to be a false accusation and she was punished. She showed he mother a video her stepfather raping her. Her mother shot him. I believe dna tests also showed that the stepfather was the father of her child which was put up for adoption.
Not all rape accusations which are found to be false are false. And why would the existence of false accusation so jade these young men that they would feel that obtaining verbal consent was futile? Where they too traumatized to offer this excuse themselves, as they did not?
Or maybe you just hope that any discomfitting talk concerning rape can be made to go away by saying women cry rape?
This was not addressed to me, I hope.
Daniel
I think that, while some of us are being berated for ‘creating justifications’ for rapists, some of you are missing our point. I think that rape covers a HUGE spectrum of actions- from back alley stranger rape, to molestation, to drug and rape, to sex with a passed out person rape, etc.
I think that my only real point in this thread (I agree wholeheartedly with **Maureen ** et al on the OP and most everything else) is that since we’re seeing such a wide range of behavior, perhaps the motivations behind these acts are different as well. Certainly some, if not most, are about power, control, humiliating the victim. But I also know that a lot of them are simply about sex, and doing whatever you need to in order to get it. I will even bet you that a fair number of rapists have no idea that they have raped, because to them, it had nothing to do with power, humiliation, etc. Many of them find nothing aberrant at all about their behavior because it does not fit with your ‘rapist boogieman’ model.
If we’re going to broaden the definition of rape (remember when a man could not, by definition, rape his wife? or when getting drunk was basically ‘giving permission’?) then we need to be more nuanced in our approach to motives. Getting into the head of the rapist IS important- what I hear is that the victim should not have to do anything to protect themselves to be free of the fear of rape (and with this, I agree), but then, we’re not supposed to care about what rapists themselves are thinking, to maybe figure a way to educate potential rapists as to the damage of their behavior? We have to do something.
I know that this is a touchy subject to some, and i apologize if this has angered you…but please understand that some of us are trying to work our way through this.
No. Nor did I disagree with your statement about saying that rape is not about sex allows rapists for whom sex is at least partly the motivation say what they are doing is not rape. I made a similar point. This was addressed to I Love Me, Vol. I who is so quick to excuse men who find it bothersome to obtain consent even the first time they have sex with a person.
Okay–sorry if I was too quick on the defensiveness. It’s hard to keep track of all the conversations here.
Stonebow, what you say makes sense to me.
Daniel
I see what you are saying. It’s complex–and so open to mis-interpretation by all “sides”.
Yes, I agree that in educating people about rape that all scenarios should be delved into. No blanket statements-because IMO alot of men don’t equate rape/forcing to have sex, with the insistence on their part that their date give it up. This is a disconnect that we must fix. But the frat boy intent on “tail” that noc is still commiting an act of rape.
Is that clear?
Oops-forgot to add this. The education should include women (of course)–many women also do not equate “being taken advantage of” with rape. Add the blame that falls on them and no wonder they are silenced…