The conversations that I overheard about the shuttle bus rape, were held mostly by women. They were condemning the victim because she accused her attacker of rape. In their eyes her actual consent to te act was judged not by her saying no, but by walking anywhere alone. They also felt that since his social standing was above hers she had no reason to complain.
So we need to not only educate women as victims, but women as part of society and enforcers of social mores. These kind of changes can be made. Drunk driving is no longer widely viewed as a trivial offense.
tdn you said this:
“I whole heartedly agree that the law should take rapists off the street. I also agree that educating boys on the evils of rape would help immensely. But the sad fact is that we’ll never be completely rid of rapists. It’s an unfortunate part of the human condition, I’m afraid. Yes, it sucks, no doubt about it.** What else can you do to ensure you don’t get raped? Take action to prevent it!
No guarantee of safety, but you just might thwart that one attempt.”**
Bolding mine.
That is what I am referring to. Sorry, but I don’t know how to do multiple quotes from mulitple posts, yet.
I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. Maybe I am not getting it here, but I still think you are saying that safety tips can prevent some rapes, sometimes.
Are you not saying that? I have said that the safety tips are well intentioned and
I said this here,
" You are correct that a safety tip MAY prevent a rape here or there(and they may not)–but they do not solve the problem of rape as a whole.
I have been addressing that, and you are being more specific in your focus."
So, yes, I have agreed with you and I do agree with you–but safety tips, fighting back etc., doesn’t get at the root causes of rape and so, does not solve the problem .
That is what I am saying.
As to not caring what the motive is --I don’t care. I want the behavior to stop. Period. I am not interested in the whys and wherefores on the part of the rapist .
I am interested in preventing future rapes by educating men and women and society (thank you, Lee ) in the complex shades of rape, and how to prevent and stop it.
If that involves delving into a rapist’s mind, so be it–but I can tell you that he will NOT take responsibiilty for his actions–he will blame it on her dress/attitude/walk/day of the week, whatever…
You know, I was curious about this thread, and seeing as it was still active, I came back and read it - although I have bowed out of participating early on.
One thing I am curious about, even more than the original topic, is the fact that so very many posters appear simply unable to “listen” to what others are writing; who take every opportunity to find offence, when none is intended; who put words in others mouths, and then get offended by those words.
I’m not blaming anyone for it, and I’m not angry about it. I simply point it out as a fact (it was why I left in the first place - it was starting to get to me).
It appears to me that on this topic emotions are so high and so involved for some, that dispassionate debate on the facts and issues is simply not possible.
I say this not really caring any more which side is “right” or “wrong”.
Speaking as a 6’1", 230lb man with the demonstrated ability to powerlift 350lbs, there is a 5’1" ~110lb (I’ve never asked, so it’s approximate) woman in my aikido class who can wipe up the mat with me on a regular freakin’ basis, and she’s only been there a year of Tuesdays.
While I agree that it is reprehensible that women should have to consider self-defense courses as a means of rape prevention, it is by no means a given that a small woman will be overpowered by a large man. To believe it is a given is tantamount to sexual discrimination.
Small women can carry guns or knives, too.
I repeat, in an ideal world, women would not have to take precautions. But this ain’t an ideal world.
I also think good men have a responsibility to educate their peers, and discipline them when necessary. I myself volunteered to be the sober bouncer at many of my fraternity’s parties, and the two times we caught some idiot putting something in a woman’s drink…well, it was dealt with, authorities were called, etc.
Basically, it’s my point of view that “good” people need to do whatever the hell they can to prevent bad shit from happening, whether they’re male or female, whether that’s self-defense, making places safer, education, whatever. There are a lot of ways to approach the problem, and IMHO we need to take ALL the approaches available to us.
As for the rest of the debate, I am NOT going there. IMHO, again, blame is less relevant, and cause is only relevant to identifying what needs to change to prevent rape.
tdn:
Look over my posts and tell me that I have not agreed with you that there are preventative actions a woman can take. I agreed that the rape crisis tips are useful–even if it saves just one victim from being raped. However, I have objected to anyone taking that one step farther saying that because a woman did not do what she could have to prevent the crime that she then bears responsibility for her victimization. I disagree with that wholeheartedly.
I think the point of this debate has been slowly changed from "when does a victim bear some responsibility for being raped? (never) to "can’t a victim take some steps to minimize her risks of being raped? (of course)
Now, if, based on my agreement with you on this issue, if you or someone else is going to ask me to agree that the onus, responsibility, whatever you call it can be placed on the victim, I am not going agree. If someone does not take any or all preventative risks and is victimized, he or she does not bear responsibilty for being raped.
Actually, I think you and I agree on this.
Oh, and by the way, to whoever said last night that the women were ganging up on the guys, I am male and I agree with them. This issue is not drawn on gender lines.
Yes, I am saying that. Note the words “No guarantee of safety” and “sometimes.” You said “noone can ever plan for all contigencies–something that tdn has not acknowledged.” “No guarantee of safety” is acknowledgement.
Mea culpa. You did say that. Sorry.
So (and this is the brick wall I’ve been banging my head on for the last day), if a safety tip MAY help, then wouldn’t it be prudent to take it, and damn what people think of you for it? If anti-virus MAY stop you from getting a virus, wouldn’t it be prudent to install it?
[QUOTE]
but safety tips, fighting back etc., doesn’t get at the root causes of rape and so, does not solve the problem .
[QUOTE]
No one has disagreed that getting at the root of the problem is the best course of action. But how long do you think that will take? Do you honestly believe that we’re ever going to be a rape-free society? Ever? OK, let’s say we’ll be a rape-free utopia by the year 2008. What are you going to do until then? Resign yourself to being a victim? Taking unnecessary risks because men should just know better?
But in the interests of moving towards rape-free:
Well, which is it? Delve into the rapist’s mind, or don’t? You want the behavior to stop, but you don’t think we should ask why it starts in the first place? Educate without becoming educated? Illuminate while willfully staying in the dark?
I have accused NO ONE in this thread of being a rapist. In fact, I made a pretty clear distinction between rapists and regular Joes that want sex - not the same thing.
It would behoove EVERYONE (not just women) do take steps to prevent attacks of any sort. These steps include self defense training, secure living quarters and common sense.
2)a. No matter how many steps are taken, some women (and men) will still be raped. Period. There is nothing that can prevent every attack - that doesn’t preclude people from being careful anyway. ALL PEOPLE.
Rape is not about sex. Period. I don’t give a flying rat’s patootie if there is a penis involved, or a vagina involved, or an ass involved.
3)a. This does not change the fact that penises, asses and vaginas are many times involved in the act - the point is, that those areas were chosen, for the particular purpose of increasing the pain/humiliation/disgrace of the victim, because they tend to be private areas that people generally don’t want strangers touching, let alone assulting.
3)b. Even groping frat boys need to get it through their heads - if your partner has says NO, then she (he) isn’t your partner anymore, and what you’re doing isn’t sex, it’s rape. E-Z.
Oooooooooh, you want cites from reasonable people. You didn’t make that distinction before. You just said you didn’t know of anyone who really believed that, prove it. There are lots of people (otherwise educated, intelligent people) who believe this. They’re all over the place. Just because they have not come to you and said “I Love Me, Vol. I, it’s that woman’s own fault she was raped, she should have known better,” does not mean they are not out there. They were probably not aware that it was necessary to make their presence known to you. I’ll put out a memo.
Yes. As for point three, is this simply a matter of definition (i.e., you consider the word “consensual” to be part of the definition of “sex”), or is this based on research? If it’s based on research, do you have research that covers acquaintance rape as well as stranger rape? If so, could you link to it?
Wow. Thank you! And all it took was me banging my head against a brick wall for 24 hours. I can’t tell you how nice it is for someone – anyone – to acknowledge THE BLEEDING OBVIOUS.
I feel I want to thank everyone involved in this thread. It was painful and difficult communication, but everyone kept polite and showed excellent understanding for others feelings. I feel I have learnt a lot from this, and am sure others have too.
It would be nice if the people saying “rape has nothing to do with sex” could give us a concise definition of sex. That might clear up a lot of confusion.
I can and will. But please be patient, as what I read was a thesis, and I’ll need to do a little searching online.
I think that’s where a major part of the frustration and anger comes from. Yes, I am willing to try to understand motivations, if that helps us reduce the number of rapes. But it’s offensive, because I see it as me taking responsibility to correct his actions. Something he will not do.
I still think you’re wrong about this, from a certain point of view. IF we are interested in examining the motives of the rapist, I can speak from personal experience that there are idiot males out there who think that, in desperation, date-rape drugs are a good and easy way to get laid. Not to humiliate their target, not to gain power over their target, but to enable them to stick their dick into someplace warm and wet.
Okay, a bit of googling has turned up this brochure on date rape, with the following section:
This is pretty much what I’ve been trying to say. Does anyone believe this characterization of the motives behind many date-rapes is inaccurate? If so, why?
If not, then I think we’ve been talking at cross-purposes.
(In case it’s not clear, I absolutely think that the occurrences in the referenced Kent State study were rape, and that this is the point at which education needs to occur.)
Daniel