[b]prisoner[/b], honey - you're an idiot. A big dumb one.

The BBQ Pit
261

OK. I apologize for misconstrueing your words–my “noone can plan for all contingencies” speaks to those times when the safety tips DON’T work.

**Try ** said it best:

.

Yes, as I’ve said, using the safety tips and some common sense does help–but see Try’s quote–women who can’t are didn’t use these are NOT culpable for their rape.
And how Draconian do the “tips” get? I’m supposed to carry a gun? No–I should not have to carry a gun to walk in peace in this world. I have to take tae kwon do and be good at it to be safe? Do you see how the tips could get more and more of a burden on the potential victim–while nothing is done to stop the actions of the perp? Does no-one see this but me?

Please don’t --the sarcasm doesn’t help. I am trying to discuss this with you–I am not here to make you feel bad or guilty or mad.

Humans being humans, we will always suffer from the aberrant behavior of a few. It would be nice re: rape, if it were a few.

My comment on not caring about the motives of the rapist refers to the man who has actually commited the crime. Again, he will NOT take responsiblity for his actions; he will put it on the victim and ya know, Lee’s story proves this point–so will we. We join the dog and pony show everytime we question why the girl was out at night. why she wore that skirt/jean/shirt/bathrobe, why she didn’t fight back/run away/scream. It’s a nasty face of society, but it exists.

I am sorry if it pains you to acknowledge the above(I don’t mean that snidely). But we DO indeed judge rape victims differently than murder victims or even muggings. THAT, and the fact that my personal (and all women’s ) freedoms are curtailed in ways that men cannot fully appreciate is what angers me. Maybe men can appreciate the sudden sickening falling of your stomach when you, in your haste to get to X appt, you find yourself alone in the parking garage with Mr. Stranger 3 cars away. He could be Mr. Rogers–it doesn’t matter–you don’t know. You can’t trust in that. Maybe men can understand that–I think that most men do. To be continually conscious of your safety is a heavy price for women. Does everyone have to have that burden, given that we live with the risk? Yes, they do–but it is heavier on women because of rape.

I have no ire for the men who are here or participating–I know many men who are as disgusted and enraged about this topic as women are. This is not a “woman’s” issue–it is a human issue.

By all means, delve into to the motives for rape in the education for men and women. But IMO, a sea change has to occur as well. We have to stop looking askance at the victims and questioning their actions–we must concectrate on the actions of the perps.

tdn again, I have no gripe with you. I think we are posting at cross purposes here. We both decry rape and want better information and change to occur.

262

I would like to know why prisoner has not come to post here in this thread.
I can only assume he agrees with everyone that he was wrong/idiot/whatever.

263

I tried to do that twice on page 4.

I know that this has been a long and somewhat circular debate.
Let me ask a few questions:
Does the word sex connote consent?
I would assume you would say no. I feel it does.
Does it take two people to have sex?
I again assume you would say no. I feel it does.

If you referring to sex as coitus, then the above two connotations of the word “sex” does not apply. However, we live in a world where words have definitions and connotations.

Why not use other words like sexual assault, or another phrase? Seriously, we could just as easily use the word coitus, couldn’t we? Why are you hung up on the idea that people do not like to connote a rape with sex?

Now if we are talking about a legal definition, many of the statutes contain phrases like “unwanted sexual intercourse” or, more typically, “sexual intrusion” or “sexual penetration” and then the statute will define that exact phrase as it applies to the crime of sexual assault. However, I don’t expect society to use precision definitions that are required in law. I expect people to talk about the connotations of words, the power words can have to shape thoughts, et cetera.

Let me ask you one thing:
When I was a prosecutor in trial, would you have liked me to stand up in front of a jury and said, ahem

“Ladies and Gentlemen, the Defendant had sex with the victim without her consent.”
How about,
“The Defendant engaged in coitus with this woman without her consent.”

Not very powerful, is it? Why?
I can tell you that every defense attorney would LOVE for me to agree to call that act as sex. Why?

I never refer to rape as sex because it makes people confront the reality to the victim that this was an assault-- perhaps the most personal and savage assault a person can go through. Many people I have known who have been sexually assaulted have told me that they wished they died. That is where I come from and that is why I won’t call say that rape is sex. Does that make sense?

264

Try As I Might…, if you agree to stick around these parts, I will happily pay for your membership fee myself. Bravo.

265

You’d have saved yourself a lot of trouble later in this thread if you’d read the rest of my post. I know it was a little long, but you could try a little harder considering how much you’ve been complaining for the past page or so that no one’s listening to you.

I am sure that no one here believes that rape is the inevitable fate of all women, and that it’s always completely impossible for a potential victim to do anything to escape a rapist. But once again, the important distinction that needs to be made is between “Here are the things you need to do to prevent someone from wanting to rape you” and “If someone tries to rape you, here are some things that might help you to escape. But remember that every situation is different, so use your best judgement.”

Rapists rarely just change their minds. Every woman I know who has escaped unharmed from a rape attempt did so because she took action to defend herself. However, many women have been raped despite their best efforts to get away.

There is nothing wrong with reasonable self-defense tips or basic precautions. There is, however, something very wrong with presenting these things as the target’s responsibility or as ways to prevent rape. Why? Because that suggests that if someone is actually raped, it was their own fault for failing in their responsibility to prevent it! They obviously did something wrong, or the rapist wouldn’t have succeeded!

You can say that’s not what you mean all day long, but no matter what you mean that’s what the words mean. If victims are “responsible” for preventing rape, then they’re equally “responsible” when the rape isn’t prevented.

266

Yep, we agree. This is all I’ve been trying to say.

Oh, I think everyone sees it. Once again, I think we all agree that stopping rapists is the number on concern. But at some point you have to acknowledge that we live in a dangerous world, and if you don’t want it to hurt you, you have to take steps to protect yourself. Yes, it’s a burden we all have to bear, and none of us likes it. And yes, it sucks that it’s so much worse for women. But that’s the world we live in, unfortunately.

Sorry. I know you’re being more polite to me than I deserve. It’s just all the frustration, you know?

This is going to get a little off track, but…

For one thing, some actually might acknowledge wrongdoing. Some might not see it as wrongdoing at all. The motives and culpabilities most likely widely vary from person to person. It’s not like all rapists are stamped out of the same mold, after all.

Secondly, yes, some rapists and their defense attornies are going to try to blame the victims. That is their job, and that is their right. I would expect no less of a defense attorny. And the defendant’s rights are constitutionally protected. That’s what makes this country great. Unfortunately it has the nasty side effect of putting the victim through hell. I don’t think anyone is happy about that, and it probably results in fewer convictions than are needed. But if you can come up with a system that’s more fair – well, you’ve done a lot better than many people who have already tried.

Yep. It’s one fucked up attitude. It’s one I hope we could change. Maybe someday we will.

Yes, I know the feeling well, and can’t imagine if it’s 10 times worse. But I also think that if you can rely on yourself for defense, that might ease the burden a little. Knowing you have a little insurance might bring peace of mind. Or maybe it won’t. That’s up to you.

Thank you for saying that.

Absolutely, except, as I said above, when it comes to court cases, the victim is going to be made out as the villan. This has always been the case, and likely always will. If anyone can figure a way around it, I’m sure the world is all ears.

267

Aw shucks. :smiley:

268

I’m not going to tell you that because I never claimed it of you. For the record, I thought your initial post was informative and insightful, and I thank you for posting it. You gave this thread a much needed touch of class.

Yes, we do. And it’s what I’ve been saying all along.

Oh, and everyone else – if I’m a little slow in responding to you, I’m sorry. There are so many posts to answer, and I need to cut back on my board time drasitcally.

269

tdn,
fair enough. I have truly appreciated your thoughts and comments as well as many of the other posters on this site. It is refreshing to find a group of people willing to listen to each other, fight through the tough emotions these issues can present, and see if there is common ground. Of course, if I stick around long enough, I’m sure my name will up there with prisoner’s getting flamed in the pit–if maybe just on another issue.

PS. Let me know the next time you’re up for a good scotch! :slight_smile:

OK, hijack over. back to banging heads on the wall.

270

I’m sure I read it, but I don’t remember it. (Isn’t that flattering? :wink: ) If you could tell me what post number it is, I promise to reread it.

That’s not quite what the words mean. Much like “sex”, “responsibility” is a word fraught with vague meaning, depending on context and the speaker’s intent. It dawned on me last night that we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble and hurt feelings if we’d just defined that one little word.

It can mean:
a) What you will get blamed for if you do not take certain actions. “Clean up that mess. You made it, it’s your responsibilty to clean it up.”
b) Proactive tasks that you, and only you, can take to improve your situation. “If you want to live a long time, it’s your responsibility to get more exercise. No one else can do it for you.”

I meant it as b), but everyone was taking it as a). I hope that if you reread some of my previous posts with that in mind, you’ll see that I am not, in fact, an unreasonable prick.

271

I don’t see that much of a difference:

“Back-alley stranger rape”: that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by staking out a location where he can capture a victim), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself.

Molestation: that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by ingratiating himself to a person who trusts him), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself.

“Drug and rape” (which I assume means the use of “roofies” and other date rape drugs): that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by slipping an intoxicant to his unsuspecting victim), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself.

“Sex with a passed out person rape”: that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by situating himself in a place where he has an expectation that there will be passed out people to have sex with), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself.

In each case the rapist made a conscious plan to enable his access to potential victims and consciously decided to have nonconsensual sex with that victim. They are the same and they need to be treated the same: as the deliberate, malicious acts of sexual predators.

I think a lot of men are encouraged to be sexual predators by their peers and by their society. We need to put a stop to this. Boys do not have to be be boys.

272

Good post. This should make it obvious that there can, in fact, be two working definitions of “sex” (and more, such as gender). And thus, “rape is not sex” and “rape is sex” can both be true statements, living happily together in a van down by the river.

Since we’re playing word games, shall I go into my spiel about how “no” sometimes does mean “yes”? Or should I save you the trouble and just flay myself alive right now?

273

OK that is funny.
I dare you. I double dog dare you.

274

Left Hand of Dorkness, this cite is from the University of Minnesota, and although there’s just a quick blurb, it also addresses several of the other points that have been brought up here. Including I love me, Vol. I’s veiled accusation that some women “cry rape” after having consensual sex. I’ll keep looking.

tdn, I’m glad you’re back. :slight_smile: Yes, I really mean that. I’ve gotten a lot out of this discussion with you. You never learn anything from people you’re in complete agreement with, so having an opposing view point has helped me clarify my own.

275

Alright. Just promise to speak well of me at my funeral.

Sometimes when a woman says no, she means yes.

She might mean “Yes, but I don’t want to seem like a slut, so you’ll have to just take me.”
She might mean “Yes, but go slow.”
She might mean “Yes, but but you’re touching that wrong.”
She might mean “Yes, but let me run to the bathroom first.”
Hell, she might even mean “Yes, the Bangledeshi word for which is ‘noe’.”

Except for the last one, I’ve experienced all of those. To a woman, these various meanings might be perfectly clear. To us big dumb men, they all sound sort of alike. It’s not easy to distinguish between them, but context and inflection sometimes help. The smart man will respond politely as if it meant “no”, then be quick to read her reaction.

Young men, as a whole, are not smart men.

Let the firing squad commence. I’d like a blindfold and cigarette, please.

276

I restated the most important part already, but the original is back at #181.

*I don’t think b) is really all that much of an improvement. It sounds like exercise is a guarantee of a long life and that anyone who doesn’t live a long time must have screwed up when it came to personal responsibility.

“Get plenty of exercise” is good advice. “Don’t leave your drink unattended” is also good advice. But “If you don’t want to be raped, it’s your responsibility to be sure you don’t leave your drink unattended” would be a horrible way to present this advice. It suggests that avoiding rape is simply a matter of “following the rules”, and that anyone who is raped must have done something wrong.

277

runs and hides, but peeks around the corner to watch with morbid curiosity

278

In the interest of presenting both sides of the argument, this article by PBS pretty much supports what i think tdn is trying to say. I won’t say I agree with it completely, but it’s very informative and dispassionate.

279

Thanks for the cite, Maureen! Unfortunately, it just provides an assertion without showing the evidence on which they base the assertion, leaving me just as confused: are they basing this on interviews with convicted rapists, without adjusting the statistics to account for the higher rate of conviction for stranger-rapists as compared to acquaintance-rapists? I don’t know.

I’m looking at another cite (PDF) that contains the following:

(emphasis added).

Do these sound like healthy understandings of sexuality? Of course not: they’re supremely awful sexualities. But sexualities they are nonetheless.

Try as I Might, I think this may come down to a difference between prescriptive grammarians and descriptive grammarians. You seem to want to establish a meaning for the word “sex” that everyone is obligated to respect. I’m coming at it from a different angle: I’m trying to understand how different people construe “sex.” If you’re addressing a courtroom of people who believe that “sex” implies consent, then of course you shouldn’t refer to a rape as sex. But if you’re talking to a guy who eroticizes dominance and violence, then it behooves you to speak the language he understands if you want to persuade him that sex-with-violence equals rape and is not in any way copacetic.

From the same site:

It seems to me that for rapists, sex, violence, and control are all pretty closely intertwined. Rather than denying that sex is part of the equation for them, it’d be more effective, I think, to work with adolescent boys to try to keep these aspects separate, to untangle the skein before they enact horrific fantasies.

Daniel

280

You make an excellent point, and the second article I linked (eventually) comes to that same conclusion as well.