You didn’t say all women. You said women who do dress slutty should expect a reaction from a specific type of man. You are the one making the generalizations here.
The problem I see from your posts regarding sexuality and women’s mode of dress leads me to believe that you see very narrow roles for men and women. That men are either seedy and go after sluts, or are respectable and have wives and families. That modest women don’t enjoy sex, and that flirtatious women are damaged goods. There are all kinds of men who appreciate all kinds of women. I’ve known bikers with more moral character than several doctors I know.
I did admit to that already. And besides, you are suprised that more sleezy men are attracted to you when you dress slutty?
I think you are putting me into a particular category of extreme right wing fundamentalist with little evidence, though I grant that there is some evidence because I do like more modest women and haven’t kept that a secret, but that in no way should be enough evidence to lead to the conclusion that I am a black and white kind of person. I never once said that ALL men are either seedy or are respectable husbands. I’m saying that there ARE men that are seedy and go after sluts. Obviously 99% of men are between these two ends. I hope modest women enjoy sex because I want my wife to enjoy it and I want a modest woman. I don’t remember ever speaking of flirtatious women. And I don’t have a problem with them, as long as they aren’t my girlfriend or wife. I’m saying that women should be careful about who they choose to have sex with. I’m not making judgements about humanity in general or anybody in particular. I’m just saying that you never know who you will meet, so you have to be careful.
Would you say that
is a black and white statement? The fact that it’s wrong notwithstanding, is it not specifically categorizing men?
Apparantly, you didn’t get my point. It was just a cute* response to show that the sluttier she dresses, the more seedy will be the men that are attracted to her.
*apparantly not
I came on to the board to see what people were saying about the Steelers, but I couldn’t resist checking in on this thread.
prisoner6655321, I asked the gentleman I’m visiting if he likes fishnet stockings, or, after a bit of clarification, women wearing fishnet stockings. This gentleman is one of the most upright, moral individuals I know. Actually, I’ve known several men who like women wearing fishnet stockings and as I’ve said elsewhere in these discussions, the men I know are not inclined to rape; if anything, they’re inclined to react rather unpleasantly towards men who do rape.
I *like * dressing up in a short skirt, high heels, and going dancing. I like laughing and flirting with men. Having gotten into my late 20s before I realized I wasn’t ugly, I like feeling like I’m attractive to men and receiving positive male attention. I also make it clear up front that, while I may like dancing and flirting, I will not have sex with a man without a committment. Yes, I’ve seen my share of sleazy (please note the correct spelling) men. The sleaziest was a man who used to be a Baptist minister before he started his own church. I met him at work, and he did his level best to sexually harrass me, despite my outranking him and working in a different department. On that job, I wore jeans and camp shirts, not exactly the most tempting attire, or so I was raised to believe. After I left the company, this man started on a 19 year old girl who did work directly for him. It’s a shame. We had a very good friendship, and I got my church to work with his church to give school supplies to kids in his area. Oh yes, the reason he was expelled from the Baptist church was because he was in the habit of committing adultery. The reason I wouldn’t even date him was because he was married.
I’ve never had a problem with men getting out of line when I’m dressed for a night on the town. That is mostly because of the events I’m going to when I’m dressed that way, but it kind of shoots a hole in the notion that a woman who’s dressed up is fair game.
Oh, by the way, one thing prisoner6655321 may not be aware of, since he’s a man. I prefer to wear knee-length skirts, preferably ones with a bit of flare to them. The problem is, for the past several years, I’ve only seen skirts at two lengths for sale in stores: nearly floor-length, especially for someone as short as I am, and ones which are straight and are only about mid-thigh length. Of the three knee-length skirts I own, two are ones I sewed myself, and the third is a floor length skirt I cut back to knee-length.
Tell you what, prisoner6655321, maybe I shouldn’t wear slutty clothes like jeans and camp shirts so I don’t attract the attention of sleazy men like former Baptist ministers. After all, these poor, Christian men are simply unable to control themselves around evil temptresses like us. :rolleyes:
CJ
Fishnets are sleazy? I don’t think so. Depends on the outfit.
Right – Goths.
In fact, plenty of Goth lads like 'em so much they wear 'em too!
prisoner6655321, I think I might have been a unduly harsh to you. From what I’ve seen of you here and elsewhere, I gather you’re a bit like people in the small town I grew up in who wish the world could be safe, or at least what the danger is and where it’s coming from could be easily ascertainable, and that if people would only abide by the rules, they would not be hurt.
That’s not the way the world works. That’s not the way it ever worked.
As I said, I grew up in a small town in the 1970s. I was a modest young girl and, except for the odd night on the town with good friends, I still am modest, if no longer young. When I was 16 years old and taking dance lessons, the father of the woman I took dance lessons from sat me down on his lap and fondled my breasts. I trusted him until then. I had no reason not to. He didn’t seem sleazy and I had no experience with sleazy men. I wasn’t taught to defend myself from sleazy men because they didn’t pay attention to respectable young women like me, or so the theory went. When I was in college, I dressed somewhere between modest and frumpy. It didn’t stop a kid I knew slightly from putting his hand on my thigh, moving it further up and generally freaking me out because no one ever taught me how to deal with it. As I said in my last post, I still prefer longer skirts than are fashionable and, when business calls for me to put on my “Yuppie suit” as I call it, a grey suit with a straight skirt which comes to mid-thigh which is as long as they sell skirts for suits these days as far as I can tell, I still feel self-conscious.
There’s nothing wrong with encouraging your daughter to dress modestly if you and she can find clothes you agree on (by the way, I don’t envy you that battle, given the ones I had with my mother, and those only involved color, not skirt-lenght! :eek: ). Just don’t tell her that only women who dress sluttily have to put up with unwanted male attention or even that doing so increases the likelihood of that happening. If you do and something does go wrong as it’s a little too likely to (I’m talking about far milder things than rape here), like me, she may wonder what she did to bring it on herself.
There are a couple of things I didn’t make clear on Saturday. What bothered me about the whole encounter is the man who came up to me in the grocery store made it clear he’d been watching me and asked me if I lived in the neighborhood. There was another woman nearby; he didn’t speak to her. The block he would have seen me on runs directly from the grocery store parking lot to the church parking lot. I wasn’t looking for company; I was disappointed because I’d gone to the church for nothing in bad weather and I just wanted to get home. Instead, I had to put up with some *idiot * chatting me up and making me aware that he thought that just because I was alone I’d be single and willing. Yeah, right! :rolleyes: Now, if I walk down that block and something does happen, I’m a fool because I now know I have been watched and noted while doing so. If I don’t, I’ve lost a bit of my freedom. I’d say there’s a 90% chance the guy’s just a social clutz who’s a bit desperate, a state I’ve been in myself. On the other hand, if I guess wrong, I will be blamed. *That’s * what I’m objecting to.
CJ
Doesn’t mean the guy is ever going to attack you, of course. But yeah, it’s a bit creepy at best. I think you’re well-justified in thinking “Eww!”
I don’t think anyone here would blame you for it. Or at least no one with a sense of self-preservation would dare. 
But I’m curious, what do you plan on doing about this?
Another question for everyone, purely out of curiousity (and I promise not to judge you for the answer you give): If you feel that a woman (or girl) should be able to dress any way she wants without fear of attack or harassment, would you let your (hypothetical) 13-year-old daughter go out looking like a slut? Why or why not? Would her personal safety (or your peace of mind) play some part in your decision?
My daughter is 12. Going on 30 or so. We’ve had run ins on cell phones (no.), make up (no.), clothes (Not that, not yet. Wait a few years.).
As far as how she dresses: No, she’s not allowed to dress sexy, much less “slutty.” Because I think it’s inappropriate and disgusting for a 12 year old girl to do so. She’s not old enough physically or mentally to be dressing in a sexually provocative manner. When she’s 15 she’ll probably have a great deal more lee way, and it’ll be something that’s built up to gradually over the next few years. I remember being that age, so I’m pretty lenient as far as how she dresses.
When it comes to going to dinner, she dresses nicely, not little girly anymore, but not sexy. I’m always amazed that her age demographic is even being targeted for that type of dress…
We might quibble on some minor points, but yeah, I think we’re more or less on the same page. The main reason I asked what I did (and not just of you, but of everybody) is to start a discussion on whether dress plays any role in risk.
Siege, I wanted to make another comment on “alley guy”, but sort of apropos of nothing. An idle comment, really.
As long as this guy didn’t attack you, he had every right to try to pick you up. Every guy has that right. But when I see another guy try it, it usually creeps me out. It makes me ashamed of my gender. What I just witnessed in the smoking area is a good illustration:
“Hey, that’s a nice ring.”
“Thanks.”
“Your husband give that to you?”
“My fiance.”
“Wow. He’s a lucky man.”
“Thanks.”
“Really lucky, because you’re a beautiful woman. You must get that all the time.”
(Embarassed) “Yeah.”
“Here, let me light that for you.”
“Thanks.”
“I’ve been working here for two years but I’ve never seen you before. You’ve got great eyes. I just thought I should mention that.”
“Uh huh.”
Now, the girl wasn’t standoffish or rude at all. But you could tell that she just wanted to smoke in peace. And the guy was so persistant – and transparent. “He’s a lucky guy” always – always – translates to “And he probably doesn’t appreciate it like I do, therefore, you should be impressed with how I think you’re beautiful.”
The guy was so wrapped up in hitting on an engaged person that he no doubt failed to see me giving him a big :rolleyes:.
Then I started thinking about this woman that I’ve sort of enjoyed flirting with (hopefully in a totally harmless way), and wondering if she found me just as transparent. “I’ll never be like this dude”, I thought, as I exited the smoking area. As I approached the door, there she was. I dutifully opened the door for her, and gave her a sexy “Hi!” She smiled at me, then walked past. A friend of Casanova greeted her with “Hi baby-girl. How you doin’?”
Ashamed of my gender, I tells ya. It’s a wonder women deal with us at all.
Something I should not do, but cannot help myself;
prisoner said:
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Do you have a wife or a GF? or both? I am confused.
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This whole pitting/thread and all the threads spawned by this one are NOT about who a woman should have sex with. I mean, hello? Guys should be careful who they have sex with…
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Girls who dress slutty (and I think you have now found that a working defintion of slutty is hard to come by these tricky days) do NOT tempt young fellows into sin (which is what you said in your pitting posts, IMS). Get over the Woman=evil Temptress and got Adam kicked out of his great timeshare nonsense.
Now, I have a 15 y/o girl. Do I let her dress “slutty”? No. But I raised her to value herself more as a person with brains and talents, as well as being very pretty, so she doesn’t NEED those positive strokes from guys. She has a bit more self esteem. IMO, girls (especially young ones) who dress and act provactively are looking for love in all the wrong places–which is NOT the same as rape, EVER, no matter what she has on, makeup, hair-whatever.
Siege --I hear you. A woman was raped on this nature path (prairie preserve) about 10 miles from my house. EVERY woman I know is angry about it–not only b/c it happened, but because we all said the same thing: “so, one more place I’m not supposed to go.” Maybe I’ll stay home and effing knit. Is that safe enough?
I, for one, am tired of living on orange alert at all times–it’s time for the guys to step up and modify their behaviors. Suggestions:
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If a college buddy/male friend calls/comes over and talks about the “pussy he’s gonna get at the party tonight”–why not call him on it? Assholes talk like this. Guys who think they are entitled talk like this. You don’t have to be a nerd to disapprove of this. Bleats of peer pressure are BS–you’re a peer, too–start exerting some pressure for good.
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At the party–see a tipsy woman trying to avoid a guy? See the guy trapping her by putting his arm to the side of her face as she is leaning against a wall? See him leaning in on her, not letting giving her space? Why not just walk on by and look curious? (I know this is idealistic as hell, and unrealistic, and probably the gal will think that there are two of you, but stay with me–indulge me). I am not saying confront anyone; I am saying look out for your fellow human beings. It may turn out that it’s nothing, but you staying nearby may be enough to stop something. Sorry to place this burden on you–women have been doing it for years.
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Guy says to you–Jackie/Susie was asking for it or similiar–call him on that BS.
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Guy says to you, I got some roofie for tonight! Um…no.
Suggestions for both sexes:
- Girls shouldn’t play games–no should mean no, unless the rules are established ahead of time (ie acting out of fantasy–and even then have a safe word).
In short, I am not responsible for the sexual desires, violent acts or lack of self control of anybody else. I am responsible for the above for myself.
Prisoner, you’re a young guy, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and figure you are just really horrible at expressing yourself.
You seem to think that the way a woman dresses is what invites unwanted attention, but really, it’s not so much about what the woman wears. Some men are assholes. Those men will give some women unwanted attention – and it won’t necessarily be because of what the woman is wearing. It’s all about what matters to the asshole.
I have red hair. I get all manner of unwanted attention. How am I supposed to avoid the assholes who are fixated on women with red hair? How am I supposed to know where one of them might be? Am I supposed to go around covering my head because I know there are guys out there who apparently can’t control themselves around red heads, just as there are guys who apparently can’t control themselves around women that are dressed “slutty”. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You know, slutty is in the mind of the beholder, just like everything else. There is no real consensus on what is slutty – what some folks describe as slutty I would say isn’t. It may be inappropriate for younger girls but short skirts, patterned hose, and night-time makeup does not a slut make.
Women can only protect themselves from the assholes to a limited degree. We all seem to be in agreement that women should take the same sensible precautions that anyone should take to reduce the chance being the victim of a violent crime (the same precautions you take to prevent being mugged, murdered, robbed). However, I agree with **Lamia ** on the clothing issue:
I don’t think I should have to forego wearing shorts in the summer any more than I believe that I should have to cover my head when I go out.
I hope that everyone here feels that women and girls should be able to dress as they like without fear of attack or harassment. Even prisoner doesn’t seem to think that women dressed in a “slutty” way should be victimized, just that it is more likely that they will be.
When it comes to rape, I do not see any reason to believe that this is true. I’ve already asked if anyone has any evidence that women dressed “slutty” are targeted for rape more often than women who are not, because everything I’ve read on the subject suggests that a woman’s clothing has no predictable effect on whether or not she will be targeted for rape. So it’s not just that I think that “dressing slutty” should not inspire a rape, I believe that it in fact does not lead to rape – at least not any more often than another choice of clothing style would.
*When it comes to my imaginary daughter’s safety and well-being, what should be is less important than what is. I think a 13-year-old girl should not be the subject of sexual advances under any circumstances, but I am well aware that this is not the way the world is. No style of dress could protect my daughter from all potential sexual advances (there are those who like the “schoolgirl” look!), but many people might take a “slutty” outfit as a sign that she is both sexually mature and looking for sexual attention.
At age 13, my imaginary daughter would be under the age of consent anywhere in the US and almost certainly would not have the maturity or experience to know how to deal with unwanted sexual advances. If another teenager or an adult mistook her for someone who was of age and was looking for sexual attention, this could easily lead to a situation she wouldn’t know how to deal with.
This wouldn’t necessarily be because she’d met a real creep or perv. These guys might have no desire to sleep with a 13-year-old, or at least know that it would be against the law if they did. They might be basically decent guys who would take “no” for an answer. But at 13 my daughter would likely be frightened and confused, even if nothing physical happened. Worse still, she might be so frightened and confused that she’d go along with whatever was suggested rather than say “no”. I don’t want that to happen to my girl!
So if my daughter wanted to “go out looking like a slut”, a long conversation might be in order. Or perhaps just a short “You’re not wearing that.” Of course, this would all depend on where she was going, who would be there, and what exactly she’d be wearing.
There’s one other thing I wanted to point out. Just as some men will consider women who are “dressed sluttily” easier targets for sex, etc. there are some other cretins masquerading as men who will consider a modestly-dressed woman, especially a modestly-dressed *young * woman a target just because she is modestly dressed. From what I understand, the idea is she won’t have enough experience with men to be able to handle unwanted attention or to say “No”. I’ll be honest. I didn’t know how to handle that guy I mentioned in college and I regret how harsh I was when he called me and asked me for a date, even though he had continued to touch me after I had told him to stop. I didn’t know how to use anything less than a scorched-earth policy. It’s my understanding that modestly-dressed women are perceived as being naive and even stupid about sex, not to mention vulnerable, therefore easier to lure into situations in which they can be subjected to unwanted contact. Yes, such creatures are scum, but scum exist and appropriate ways of dealing with them must be taught. As a Christian, I can’t even say a knee to a certain part of the anatomy qualifies as an appropriate response, although it would be a satisfying one! (Excuse me. I think I’ve gone back to scorched earth again. :eek: )
As for alley guy, I suspect one of the reasons the fellow I’ve been seeing drove me to church on Sunday is so I wouldn’t be tempted to walk, or rather stride through that block (I’m not noted for doing things timidly!). In future, yes, I will walk down that block. The grocery store’s parking lot serves as overflow parking lot for my church and I have to be at church early for choir practice on Sundays, before the earlier service lets out. That block is the most direct route. I’ve been dealing with bullies and other people who tried to intimidate me into not doing something I wanted to since I was a little kid. I didn’t let them stop me then; I won’t now. (You can see why the gentleman was concerned.) I will be a little more on alert than I was, although I’m almost completely sure the fellow was harmless.
What would I do if it were my daughter wanting to dress like a slut? Well, one reason it’s a good thing I don’t have kids is I’m old-fashioned. There’d be a talk about not spending my money on things I don’t approve of. That’s the easy part. What I would hope for is a talk about why these things matter and about impressions. Clothes are costumes. What we wear does influence the way the world percieves us whether we want it to or not. I know a gentleman who’s a brilliant mathematician. He’s talked about how other brilliant mathematicians attending a conference will go out to a nice restaurant for dinner and be dismayed at the way they’re treated because, while they may indeed have brilliant minds, the clothes on their bodies are more reminiscent of something a homeless person would wear. I suppose I’d ask my daughter why she wanted to be perceived as something she wasn’t. Then again, this really is about as pure speculation as you can get.
tdn, my friend, even for a fairly ordinary-looking woman like me, getting hit on is part of life. We deal with it. Some men are absolutely charming; others, well, aren’t. Both halves of the species have their share of pathetic flirts, and I have been the girl hanging around a guy desperately hoping he’ll notice her. :o Why do we put up with you men? Because you’re interesting, fun, sexy, different and intriguing. Because you smell good, at least some of you, and kiss better! Because you can make us laugh and smile, and then turn around and want to protect us. Because Walter Cronkite, of all people, once hung from a tree by his knees to impress a girl!!! (If I remember the story, he was about 13 at the time.) Because, simply, with all your faults and all your virtues you are, simply, men and, as a straight woman, I find something appealing in that, something which overrides the tiny percentage of creatures which claim to be men while, in fact, being something far, far less.
Good night,
CJ
To clarify–my previous post was intended to be a "everyone watch out for your neighbor’ type thing. Like if you saw your friend was drunk, yoiu would take away the car keys etc. I don’t expect guys to act as chaperones/guardians of anyone except themselves. Ditto to the girls. But if the chance presents itself, to not turn away…
Thanks for bringing this up. I think it’s an important point that often gets overlooked.
When it comes to men looking for consensual sex, a woman in a sexy outfit might well seem like the best one to make a play for. She looks sexy and she knows it, and if she’s not already with someone there’s a decent chance she’s looking for someone.
However, a rapist is by definition someone not overly concerned with whether his target wants to consent. He probably prefers that she be non-consenting. Many rapists must prefer women who looks modest, shy, and “nice” because such women would seem easier to frighten and subdue, less likely to put up much of a fight, and less likely to come forward after the attack.
When I was 13, I saw some knit shirts I wanted at K-Mart. They were my size and in the section for my age. When I tried them on I was a bit appalled and pleased. I had probably about three inches of cleavage. They did not show my bra, or come to within a half inch of doing so. One was red, one blue, and one lavender with a picture of a kitty. I especially liked the latter. I did not know what to think. I came out and showed my mom. I was ashamed of my breasts often then, while being pleased by them as well. One thing I hated was that I was continually accused of stuffing my bra. There was nothing buy me there, but still they teased. Mom, said, well, they can’t accuse you of stuffing with these.
They were comfortable and washable and a very popular style. A lot of girls wore them, but I was the only one who had cleavage. That was the start of people accusing me of dressing slutty. It was far easier to deal with accusations of slutty dress than it was of stuffing. I would wear the same outfits as other girls, not tighter either, and would be accused of dressing slutty. I would politely point out some other girl, often a flat chested tom boy and ask if she were dressed slutty. The answer was invariably no, but! But! and there it would die.
Not long after that later the same year IIRC, I started getting most of my clothes as hand-me-downs from a 30 something beautician my grandmother worked with. The clothes were nice, but old for me. All of the clothes were fairly conservatively cut. I got hit on far more in them than I did in my low cut knit shirts. I looked older, in my 20s perhaps, and so I looked more available than I was. There are worse things for girls than showing a little skin. It gave me confidence.
Excuse me. I happened to be changing busses downtown this morning and in a department store window, I saw something which I found amusing, given recent posts in this thread. There in the window was a mannequin wearing fishnet stockings. And a knee-length skirt. 
Yes, she had a top on. No, the skirt wasn’t the sort of color I’d wear.
CJ
Sometimes I swear the universe plays jokes on me!
Hey-you’ll get my fishnets when you pry them from my cold, dead legs.