That’s good to hear. The specific wording that I objected to was this:
It sounded dismissive.
And yes, you’re right. This IS an important topic, one that should be discussed. It’s revolting and embarrassing, so most people push it out of sight. But it should be a topic of discussion more frequently.
But you are still putting the onus on the woman!
I read women, woman, women, in every damn post! What about the men?
Where is the soul searching and behavior modification and self-control posited for MEN, here!? Funny, how the enitire focus of this thread is “change your manner of dress, don’t go out at night, get a solid core door, make good decisions–(whatever those may be)”. WTF? How about we up penalty of rape? How about we STOP putting the woman and her sexual history/character/church attendance/fashion choices on trial? How about we, as a society, decide to rid ourselves of the creeps who prey on women and children (and men, too). It is NOT up to us to second guess these women, to Monday morning quarterback their every move. It is a normal, albeit despicable human attribute, but it should be denounced and derided when it appears (like now).
Don’t tell me I need a whistle and tae kwon do–let’s work on the predators and change the mindset of the fucking Neanderthals who do this shit.
I agree with the poster who said that we could all be in burkas and it wouldn’t matter a damn bit.
Yes, “safety” tips can point out the obvious–that there are not nice people in the world and we should be leey of them. That’s all they do–that, and provide a false sense of security to those who follow all those “tips”.
All those tips and rules to live by may not matter a damn–and to those who have been raped, those tips didn’t help. They might even have added to their guilt and shame.
Fuck you. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you very fucking much.
It is NOT my fucking responsibility to huddle in my home or my place of business terrified to walk from the door to my car on the off chance that some stalker is going to grab and assault me. It is HIS FUCKING FAULT FOR DOING IT. Do I know how to defend myself? Yes. But not for that reason. And, even if it was, HE IS THE CRIMINAL. You make it sound as if I should expect it, merely for being female.
I’m very glad that you can dismiss it as sexual at some level. It’s totally and completely wrong, but hey, if it makes you feel better.
It’s an important topic, but I think I’m through talking about it for now. I’m making people angry and emote, rather than making them debate, and it is making me angry, which is silly.
After all, we are all on the same side in this.
Yes, goddammit. Especially with teenagers and guys in their early twenties. Enough with the attitude that “boys will be boys”, that guys have a god-given right to have gotten laid by the time they get out of high school, that a girl is a 'tease" if she makes out with a guy but doesn’t go all the way. “No means no” is pointless if males don’t take it seriously.
This is interesting to learn. It makes me think that the education on how to keep safe needs to reflect this more.
We should put good locks on our doors, and make sure our doors are solid. Make sure we jog and walk in groups if possible. Be very warey in parking lots.
I’d like to see more video surveilence of parking lots, and much better lighting. In fact street lighting in general could be improved for pedestrians.
Egads, I knew I was going to get flamed for that post. I didn’t think it was going to be that harsh, though.
First of all, no, it doesn’t make me feel better, in fact it makes me feel quite a bit worse.
Second, I REALIZE THAT IT’S THE RAPISTS FAULT. We all realize that. Every single person in this thread has said so repeatedly. Why you refuse to understand that is beyond me. Here let’s take a quick poll – anyone think that rape is good? Anyone think that rapists are not to blame? Anyone feel like blaming a victim? Hello, anyone?
sound of crickets
You seem to have trouble distinguishing between fault and responsibility. If someone attacks you, yes, it’s his fault. I don’t know how many more times that can be said. But in that unfortunate situation, whose responsibility is it to save you from that situation? Hint: The choices are you and him, and it likely it ain’t him. Yes, it sucks. No, it’s not fair. You shouldn’t have to live in fear. But you can’t put the guys eyes out with idealism. You can’t kick him in the balls with blame. You have to defend yourself.
Trust me, if I happened to be walking nearby in that situation, I’d be more than happy to help you out. I’d do anything to save you. But if no one is there to help you, who are you going to rely on?
Can I pit prisoner6655321 on a different subject? His name is screwed up. In A Clockwork Orange, Alex’s prisoner number is 655321, not 6655321. Dude, you can’t even get a simple thing like copying a number right.
Oh yeah, and you’re a poopy head who can’t grasp the simple concept of rape. It’s 100% the agressor’s fault.
Well said. I just never felt like that as a younger man, and so don’t think about it too much. But you are perfectly correct that males should be taught not to think in such ways. And that would be a more important and useful step towards reducing rape and other violence than self protection by potential victims (which is everybody).
Point well taken. If I said anything that came across as a personal attack rather a debate on the merits, I apologize.
TDN, please tell me that you are not using a hollywood movie as a depiction of real life. Do you really believe what you pontificating or are you just trying to get people to argue with you?
Eleanorigby, I hope nothing I said upset you.
Exactly. Anyone remember that story out of Texas a few years ago about the HS boys who were keeping score of all the girls they had “tapped”? It was a Barbra Walters special or some damn thing. It made me sick. Sorry, don’t have a link.
Every last parent of the boys was PROUD–“boys will be boys”, indeed. As a mother of sons, I find this attitude repugnant. As a mother of a daughter, I find this attitude repugnant and dangerous to her(and all women).
Bippy --while it may comfort you to build an entire country into some sort of garrison–most of us would like some peace and freedom. As a citizen of the USA and of the world, I claim the right–the entitilement-- to live rape free. How radical of me.
The change must be societal, must become a facet of learning, much like we are taught to value honesty or integrity. We must pass on that violence and rape (and all similiar crimes) are NOT acceptable, not condoned, not winked at with much tsk-tsking as a sop. How about we treat the female victim with some respect and dignity–in the court room and in the press? How about we give them some credence and not smear their reputations so that the perp can still play pro ball?
Where in health class are these kids taught about date rape? That might does not make right? That choice of dress does not an open invitation make?
Hell, we can’t even talk to our kids about birth control and sex these days–I dont’ see enlightment coming about predatory sex and violence any time soon.
As for Prisoner --I am new around here, but the more I see posted by him(her?), the more I feel sorry for him. It is obvious to me that he lives in a narrow world, filled with all manner of preconceptions about people, be they gay, female or “different” from him(non-Christian). He is clueless–completely clueless.
I am wondering if he is my FIL, actually–about 70, conservative, never had a critical thought process in his life, Republican (of course)—but I am wandering OT.
And alice --I am sorry to hear your news. I enjoy your posts. I hope you are ok.
Sorry, it’s the only rape I’ve ever witnessed. I hope it stays that way.
But in my defense, I understood it to be an accurate portrayal of a real life event. Then again, I know about Hollywood’s ideas of accuracy.
Are you familair with the real life case? It was pretty well publicized.
Try as I Might --No, you did not offend me. I agree with your post.
I am offended by the fact of rape, period. But I realize that that makes me both idealistic and naive. I think that if we changed the word from rape to murder, that may make a difference. No one will argue that X contributed to his own murder. If there are scenarios where one would be culpable for his own murder, please elucidate.
I am also offended that some here (there has been more than one) that still see rape as sexual, in a ny degree, in some context. I, and I think most women and “experts”, see it as a crime of violence–a hate crime, if you will. Lust does not drive rape.
My beef is that posters keep harping on the safety tips–as if those will prevent rape. Yes, maybe sometimes they can help deter or even prevent, but just because a woman/girl doesn’t use those “tips” doesn’t mean that she “asked” for the rape or was even guilty of ignoring safety advice. I agree with Try --often these victims are set up.
I can do routine maintenance on my new Volvo, change the oil, rotate the tires etc., but it could still die on me–am I culpable for the cracked engine block even thought I followed the owner’s manual’s directions on maintaing the car? Am I responsible for the Volvo being stolen, even if I locked the doors/had a car alarm?
I can hear the replies-why, yes, you are somewhat responsible, if you park that car in a bad neighborhood.
And while we’re at it–let’s get rid of the bad neighborhood nonsense. I know several women who have been raped–and not one of them was in a bad neighborhood. Maybe that is why I am so scathing of the counter-arguments here. IMO, the safety tips (which are little more than common sense) are more a ritual to bring comfort to those who have not (yet) been victims. One big tip is avoid places after dark. Yeah–that’ll work in my life! Should women not stay late at work? Should they not go out after dark?
Who dares to impinge on my freedom and tell me it’s for my own good? I take umbrage with that attitude, no matter how well intended it may be.
Sorry, I’m not familiar with the case. It is quite horrifying, though.
sigh…I had been doing well up til that point. Unfortunately, your post just put it over the top. I’m sorry.
The reason I snapped is because you said this:
I am tired of hearing this argument when it comes to rape. A former prosecutor comes in and explains exactly WHY precautions are useless. And still, it keeps getting bounced back on the woman. “If you take better precautions… If you don’t dress like that… If you learn to defend yourself…” No. No, no, no, no. It has. Nothing. To do with it. It’s a justification and an excuse. Why can you not see that?
Really. I have no problem distinguishing between fault and responisibility. I am responsible for my actions. NOT FOR HIS. My walking from my office (not the best part of town) to my car is not an open invitation to be assaulted. That is what rape is. Assault. Stop equating it with sex. IT. IS. NOT. SEX. And, kicking a guy in the balls doesn’t always stop him. Yes, I know this for a fact. We won’t get into how ridiculous you sound telling some 130lb 5 foot nothing that she should fight, and it’ll make it better. Women DO fight back. And still get raped. Stop making the assumption that’s all it takes.
You’re missing the point. The point is, whether or not I defend myself, it isn’t my responsibility to make sure someone doesn’t fucking rape me!!
tdn, you and I see eye to eye on most things, and I apologize for getting so frustrated with you. In fact, that’s the reason I’m so frustrated with you right now. If that makes sense. 
Okay. One more time, and with feeling. Rape is not about sex. Rape. Is not. About sex. It isn’t. This is what makes it (in some people’s eyes) forgiveable and (in others’ eyes) understandable. “Well, look at her. She’s hot. Of course she got raped.” Rape is not sex. Rape is murderous aggression. Blind rage. The rapist uses sex to further humiliate and shame his victim. Not for any pleasure other than dominating and hurting his victim. Do you see?
It’s a good movie, and I highly recommend it. Didn’t Jodie Foster win an Oscar for it? However, that one scene is very difficult to watch, and goes on relentlessly for about 20 minutes. It’s like Passion of the Christ or Schindler’s List in its ugly intensity.
The actual incident, from what my decayed brain cells can recall, took place in Boston, I think at a club called Pooh’s Pub. It would have been in around 1984 or 1985. I can find out more if you’d like, but frankly just thinking about it makes me feel a little sick.
Thank you, maureen for saying it so well.
'K, another observation which is totally my opinion only. So no, I don’t have any cite for this, it comes from what I’ve observed only. And please tell me if you think it may have any validity. And, I’m sorry if any of this offends anyone.
I believe that men, to some extent, feel several different things in regard to rape.
Guilt- whether it was because they could not do anything to stop it, or just for the mere fact that they are men and feel that women blame all men (we don’t).
Empathy-because, well, what man hasn’t wanted to attack (and I mean that in the good way, not rape) some woman and have his way with her?
I believe there are several other emotions involved, but that those two contribute largely to being able to put any responsibility in regard to rape on a woman’s shoulders. That because they have harbored a desire at some point to “attack” a woman (and again, rape and the kind of attack I am describing are two different things), it must be comparable to what the rapist felt or wanted when he raped a woman. They are not even comparable. Rapists are not normal men. Lust has nothing to do with the acts they perform. In fact, if case studies I have read are consistent with most rapists, they find the sexual act itself distasteful.
Women do not blame all men for this, and we all understand that not all men are capable of rape. In fact, most are not.
Thoughts?
tdn: You’re a bit off in your recall of the scene in The Accused. (Not that I blame you for wanting to block some of it out.) Anyway, the rape took place in the same room where JF’s character had been flirting with the guys, not in a back room. First they played pinball, then she started dancing with one guy. She started saying “no” when he became too aggressive, but he wouldn’t hear of it, and lifted her onto the pinball machine.
What I took away from that was that the worst offfender was the guy who didn’t lay a hand on her, but who egged on the physical rapists and led the other onlookers in chanting and clapping. He also pointed at the waitress and said, “You’re next, huh?”
He and two others were convicted for this. On what grounds, I’m not sure, but that was really the message the film wanted to send. (I think in the RL incident, only the physical rapists were convicted.) Stuff like this doesn’t just happen; mob mentality can spur people to do things against what would otherwise be better judgement. And it’s an outgrowth of the mindset that men should be studs and women can only be either virgins or whores.
This is the only part of your post that i disagree with. Unfortunately, I have known quite a few guys that have met all of the legal (and moral) definitions of rape, and have gone on with their lives, even raising families, usually because the ladies in question refused to press charges. In every case I saw in college, it was definitely a case of lust overriding common sense (usually alcohol involved) and leading to criminal acts.
Maybe we’re speaking at cross-purposes here, and you’re trying to single out violent, serial rape from aquaintance rape, or separating ‘rapists’ from ‘guy that has sex with passed out chick at party.’ But if rapists are really NOT normal men, we have a lot of abnormal men walking among us. I think you’d be surprised, just as I’d be surprised at how many of the women I know were victims of rape.