tdn, I’m going to try to swallow back the vomit that came up the back of my throat at reading your post, and actually respond by doing something other than calling you a nimrod. It wont be easy, 'cus that’s what I’m feeling, but I’m gonna try anyway.
First - I’ve seen “The Accused”. In fact, I own it.
The reason that I like that movie so much, is because it rather clearly illustrates a couple of points:
A woman can be dressed like a floosy and cozy up to strange men in bars and she still didn’t do anything to “earn” her attack.
Rape is not about sex - I guess you missed the part where the woman was being attacked and degraded and held down, and repeatedly assulted by strangers, while their pathetic friends cheered. There was NOTHING “sexy” about that scene - it was violence from begining to end, and the fact that the weapon of choice was a penis dosen’t change that at all. Honestly, if you saw that and got “sex” out of it, perhaps you need to rethink you’re point of view.
There are some men - a majority in that movie, that are mysoginist pigs and view an attractive woman in a revealing outfit to be their’s for the taking. Who cares if she has a boyfriend? Who cares if it wasn’t you she was flirting with? Who cares if she was screaming NO at the top of her lungs and trying to fight you off? She showed up at the bar in a miniskirt - she deserves everything she gets, and more.
Finally, let me just point out - Jodi Foster may have gone to the bar looking for sex. What she wound up with was rape and the two are totally, 100% not the same thing.
But, my point is that no matter what kind of “rape” it is–the MEN are the ones not controlling themselves/their emotions/actions. It is NOT the woman’s responsibility to stay sober just in case a man wants to “drill” her later. The onus is still on the female then-we must curtail our actions/behaviors/dress to accomodate the possiblity that some man will take advantage of the opportunity presented by our actions/behaviors/dress.
How is raping a woman who is passed out a party any less heinous than the stalker on the late night subway?
I am not sure what your point is, here. Rape, to me, is rape. Maureen --I am not sure I totally agree with your last opinion, but I do see your point. Add to it that many women have sexual fantasies of being manhandled or even “raped”, and the situation gets murkier by the minute.
Then shame on you, for allowing them to think it’s okay. The women who didn’t press charges probably didn’t out of fear of being on the receiving end of just the attitude you’re exhibiting here. “It was no big deal, just an error in judgement.” No. It was rape. Were you present? How do you know it wasn’t violent? Because it was one of your friends, and they’re all good guys? Because you didn’t see any bruises? I don’t care how much alcohol and how little common sense was involved. Most men are able to control their urges. And guess what? It’s their responsibility to do so. “I was drunk” is still an excuse. And forcing yourself on someone is still a violent act.
Possibly we are. Any rape is violent rape. Does a woman have to be beaten to a bloody pulp to make it so? Yes. Giving someone something to make them pass out so you can have sex with them is rape. Get it? My body is not yours. It’s mine. Your girlfriend’s, wife’s, co-workers. You need to understand specifically: not your body. Ours. No man has rights to my body unless I specifically give him that right. It isn’t just some lack of common sense. It isn’t the heat of the moment. It is intentional, and it is wrong. Seems to me, it isn’t the victims who have problems taking responsibility for their actions.
Lust does not drive rape is true, and I believe sexual activity has very little to do with the reason for someone to rape another. But…
Rape by definition “the crime of engaging in sexual acts, usualy forcibly, with a person who has not concented” is sexual by definition, never mind by any degree.
“Rape is not about sex it is about power” is a good slogan, and important in distinguishing Rape from positive sexual activity, but it isn’t a truism. Consider Paedophilia which if acted uppon is by definition rape (since a child is too young to give consent), it is also a sexual perversion.
So if you are offended by those who suggest rape involves some sexual activity are you also offended by the definition of the word Rape?
I’m sorry if I’ve upset you. I know this is an extremely emotional topic, and one that engenders misunderstandings (gender differences probably account for a lot of that), that tempers are bound to flare. I also realized that everything I posted was bound to inflame, and yet I did it anyway. My bad. Take two more sorries out of petty cash.
sigh I suppose precautions are useless, but I have a hard time believing that, probably because I don’t want to believe it. If victims could protect themselves, then we wouldn’t have as much of a problem. Do you see why I wish this was the case? Can you blame me for not wanting to give up hope?
Oh, and it’s not a justification and an excuse. It’s a hope that women could be empowered enough that they could truly live without fear. My first hope, of course, is that there would be no rapists in the first place. But barring that (in a slightly more realistic world), I would hope that women (and men) could protect themselves. I don’t see how anyone could think of that as a bad thing. But if it is, I’d appreciate it if someone could explain why.
Of course. But there’s not much you can do about his actions, right? If we could somehow get him to stop, I’m sure we’d all do whatever we could to make that happen. You understand that we’d all give our collective right arm to keep you safe, don’t you? And that preventing rape attempts in the first place is the ideal way to do that? But in the real world, we can’t always be there for you. So the number one person responsible for looking out for your safety is you. Sometimes you’ll fail, we all know that, and it can’t helped. That’s sad. But if you learn to protect yourself, you stand a better chance. And far from making you cower in fear, it’s extremely liberating.
I want to understand why you (and so many other people) are so insistant about this. Is it because it implies that it feels good, or you’ve somehow consented, or that it equates to intimate feelings? What’s the objection based on?
Physically, it’s sex. The physical act of rape is more or less indistinguishable from the physical act of sex. This difference is in the minds of the “participants.” Willing or not willing. Pleasurable or not pleasurable. And the instruments of rape are nearly always sex organs. Also, look at the story posted earlier about the boys who considered rape to be “scoring.” In their minds, it was sex. In a (twisted and sick) way, whether it’s sex or assault is a matter of opinion. (Before you flame me for that, reread the “twisted and sick” comment.)
Of course rape has a sexual component. It’s the one component that differentiates it from ordinary, garden-variey assault.
Do you sort of see what I’m trying to say?
I never made that assumption. I realize that sometimes it takes much more, and sometimes nothing is enough. But isn’t it worth it to do whatever you are able to to prevent it from happening?
Not to sound flip, but whose responsibility is it, then? I mean, assuming the rapist is bound and determined.
Yes, makes sense. Sorry we’re having tension here.
No. I don’t buy that. I’m sure that sometimes – most often, even – it’s about aggression and rage and all that, but on occasion it is about sex, at least in the rapist’s mind. I’m willing to bet that in the “scoring boys” cite above, those boys thought of it almost entirely as sex. It’s still rape, of course, but not in their perceptions.
Take this situation: An 18 year old boy fucks his 17 year old girlfriend. Technically, it’s statutory rape. In his mind, is it murderous aggression?
I hope I’ve explained myself well and diffused some of the vitriol. It might help if you reread this post while imagining my gentle and soothing voice.
It doesn’t matter what was going through the mind of the attacker - if he’s thinking “sex, and I’ll take it anyway I can!” that’s not a sexy thought. That’s a violent, dominating thought. Period.
The reason I know this, is because the vast majority of men, when confronted with a sexy woman who seems to be coming on to them (or is minding her own business, for that matter), will bring the subject of sex up. “Hey, want some sex?” either directly, or indirectly. When the woman in question says “No, piss off.” (or words to that effect), most men think to themselves “Pooh. No sex for me.” They don’t think “Well, I don’t give a shit what you want, I want some sex and I’m going to have it.”
That’s the difference. See? Normal men versus rapist assholes.
Reading further and getting I think more insite (I hope). I see the problem somewhat in the multiple meanings and connotations of the word sex.
Sex as in contact with genitals is what I mean by Rape being in part sexual.
And has nothing to do with the meanings of the word sex that leads to the word sexy.
In some ways I would like Rape the crime to have no sexual part in its definition. So that any crime of physical and mental humiliation, degridation, and control could be considered as equaly revolting.
So someone who physically humiliates others (say spitting on urinating on beating up …) without ever engaging in sexual contact would be considered a similar crime.
In any rape there is a point where the victim decides whether to escalate the violence. Does she fight back? How hard? The rapist is often bigger and stronger than she is. If she is passive, she might get off with “just” getting raped. If she fights back, she could end up bloodied and bruised, get broken ribs, or worse.
Some women play passive…this is NOT consent and they are not to be blamed for not fighting it off. Maybe if they’d have fought, they would have fought off the rapist…but maybe if they’d fought they’d be dead. They survived - in what way they thought best at the time.
Some women fight and get raped anyway, bruised and bloody. Had they not fought, would they have ended up bruised and bloody? Or “just” raped. You know what, doesn’t make any difference, they survived in what way they thought best at the time.
And some women end up dead no matter what choice they made.
We had an interesting discussion about this at my bookclub. One of the women insisted that getting raped was the worst thing that could happen. Two of us who’d been raped said getting hit was worse. I’d get raped again if it meant I didn’t get hit. Other people will make different choices.
Oh I’d take the knuckle sandwich for sure, if it meant I didn’t get raped.
A knuckle sandwhich hurts like hell, and looks really bad. And you know what - people want to help, and offer to make you smoothies and milkshakes, and rub your feet.
Rape creeps everyone out, doesn’t show, and doesn’t make people want to help - it makes them want to know what YOU DID WRONG (even if they don’t voice this), so that they can not do it and it won’t happen to them.
Trust me - smoothies are way better than revulsion, at least in my opinion.
Human beings are such confusing animals. I cringe from the term “rape fantasy.” But what else can you call it? It’s nothing at all like the real thing… gah. That’s a whole different thread.
No, I don’t blame you a bit. I think it’s very difficult to force yourself to see past the sexual aspect, which is understandable, to the violent aspect, which is unforgiveable. Precisely because this is how we physically express our emotions for each other. That someone would take that and turn it into something hurtful and wrong is unthinkable.
Self protection is never a bad thing to learn. But most times when it comes to rape, it’s useless. Against a purse snatcher? Not a problem. All they’re interested in is your cash. Rapists are out for something far worse.
Well, that’d be good. Unfortunately, rapists play upon people’s trust. So, that moment to fight back is usually gone, you’re not on your guard, and defense is the furthest thing from your mind.
I do. Here’s the thing. The reason I’m so adamant about it is precisely because the physical act of rape is not just a physical act. It has emotional and psychological overtones. Numerous ones, which may be anything as simple as the mob rules mentality cited earlier, or proving who’s in charge, all the way to the rapist showing his mother just exactly what he thinks of her. Or even peer pressure. In each case here, the woman or girl is really incidental. It isn’t nearly as personal to the rapist (other than what’s going on in his head) than it is to the woman. She’s just the recipient. There are many flavors and varieties of rape, and we can keep throwing up examples all day. But, if someone keeps going after a girl says “no,” then there’s a reason beyond “I just wanted to get some.” Whether the man is willing to admit it or not. Because he obviously knows it’s wrong. If he didn’t why on Earth would he take pains afterward to tell the victim it’s her fault? That she deserved it?
Depends. Did she, at any point, say no? See, statutory rape is really hazy, IMO, and while I understand they had to set the age somewhere, it varies from woman to woman on when she’s ready to have sex. That’s a whole different discussion, too.
It’s the rapist’s. It is the rapist’s responisbility to know not to do it in the first place, and that if he does, he will be punished. It really is that simple. My responsibility to fight back, certainly. But his to not do it in the first place.
Yes, I see the difference, but I stand by my point. I understand that it’s not the same as “dinner and a movie” sex. I understand that there’s a strong violence component. And I understand that IT’S NOT OK!
I agree that the misunderstanding may be due to differing definitions. Let me ask you this – would you agree that rape is assault using sex organs? Would you agree that lust might have a dark side? Would you agree that two people might view some random subject differently?
Would you be amenable to agreeing with anything at all?
With all due respect, you take that and shove it right up your ass. I think I made it pretty clear that i find rape repugnant. However, you make rapists out to be some sort of shadowy boogeymen out in the shadows rather than your sons, your husbands, and your fathers. And yes, some rapists are thinking of nothing more than getting their rocks off.
My largest body of experience with rape comes from the college party scene. Every weekend, going out to clubs, party houses, etc, and without exception, happening on incidents (plural) in which a young woman had gotten totally plastered (self-drugged) and someone took advantage of them. This fits my legal and moral definition of rape. I quit that scene pretty early on, because there was just too much of it going on, and it was too frustrating to deal with every weekend. Other than going on ‘party patrol’ to hinder it, I had no recourse, because it was an accepted part of college culture. This attitude is reinforced both by the actions of the men and of the women involved.
Rape is a monstrous crime, but reducing all rapists to monsters really leaves you with few options to fight them. And you can keep telling me that it has nothing to do with sex, but in the minds of quite a few of the guys doing it, that’s all it is about.
Yes, except when it isn’t. If a person (man or woman) is violated with a broom handle, it’s still a rape. The “sex” part comes in because that’s the part of the person being assulted, and has nothing to do with what the attacker is assulting with. Thus the attacker is not having “sex” with the victim, or performing a “sex act” with the victim. They are attacking the “sex organs” of the victim.
I think that not all rapists think that they are even committing rape or if they acknowledge what they are doing could be labeled rape that somehow it is justified. So many messages in our society suggest that any woman who places herself in a situation that can result in a man being able to put his penis into her vagina, then no blame or wrongness can be placed on the man. She consented because she knew it could happen and did not take enough steps to prevent it. Women as much as men buy into and perpetuate these beliefs.
It is truly amazing what humans can make themselves believe in order to get what they want. For rape, I think it (what the rapist wants to get) could be sexual, could be power, or even revenge. it could even be the self-rightious feeling one gets from proving those who violate social mores will pay. I think it is a mistake to say rape is never about sex. What that message says to a rapist is that if it is about sex, then the act is not rape.
There are many behaviors that can be labeled as crimes that society condones. Surely, we can agree that taking jewelry from someone’s locked house is wrong. Some feel is it less wrong if the house is not locked. Some feel that it is less wrong if the item stolen is less valuable. Some feel it is not wrong at all if the item were discarded and even less wrong if the item was never missed.
Embezzling millions from trusting widows is wrong. Embezzling thousands from your employer maybe seem as slightly less wrong, especially if they have treated you egregiously. What about taking home office supplies? What if it is only a used bic you forgot was behind your ear?
Rape is so horrific, we would like to believe it is rare. I know it is not. I think we are willing to make any excuse possible just so we don’t have to admit what a huge horrifying mess our society is perpetuating.
I think that rapists justify their actions to themselves:
[ul][li]Hey, she should have known about date rape drugs, they have been widely publicized. [/li][li]If she did not want it, then she would not have imbibed something that could have been drugged. [/li][li]It is just part of the game. If she did not want me to have sex with her, she should never have let herself be alone with me. [/li][li]I never realized she did not want to have sex with me, sure she said no and cried, but that is just for show. [/li][li]I thought she liked it rough and was just playing along.[/li][li]Yeah, I got her so drunk she passed out, but I had a few myself so you might as well say she raped me.[/li][li]I read her diary. She said she fantasized about me. I was just giving her what she wanted.[/li][/ul]
I think that every time someone asks, “What were you wearing?” or looks for “mitigating” circumstances" they help rapists live with themselves. Everytime someone puts date rape and acquaintance rape into a completly different category, they help rapists’ self esteem.
And once again - what’s in the mind of a rapist really isn’t important. Just because he can justify it to himself doesn’t mean that justifys it. Most people don’t want to think of themselves as a repugnant, disgusting human being - so, guy forces himself on someone, and it becomes “just sex” because that’s not repugnant or disgusting, right?
Had you read this whole thread, you would realized that the majority answer (at least from the women posting) is “None” because dressing like a slut doesn’t get women or girls raped.
Asshole rapists get women or girls raped. Period. There is no justification or mitigation, whatsoever, because the victim had a miniskirt on. NONE.
I think it is important, because one of the best ways for us (men and women alike) to fight the issue of rape is by educating people on what is and is not acceptable. If teenage boys (for example) are committing rapes because they’re desperate for sex, and if we deny that anyone commits rape for sexual motives, then our efforts to educate these teenage boys about what’s unacceptable behavior is necessarily going to be undermined.
Once a rape has occurred, sure, the motive for the rape isn’t important, except inasmuch as it helps us understand the mind of a rapist. But if we can understand what’s going through potential rapists’ minds, we may be able to prevent some future rapes.
Teenaged boys wanting and going after sex, is about sex.
Teenaged boys wanting and going after sex at the exclusing of being a decent human being, is not about sex. It’s about a predator in the making.
I think if you say to guys “You know what - all guys want sex, lucky ones get a willing partner, unlucky ones get 5 fingers Mary” Period. No willing partner, no sex, 'cus of course then it’s not sex anymore.
