Why are we all concentrating on how women
What are men supposed to do to prevent rape? Do any of you know a man who was raped (outside of jail)? What would you ask your male friend if he confided in you that he was raped? Would you think he must have done something, put himself in some dangerous situation, deserved it somehow?
I completely agree, that this girl should not have been raped simply because of how she was dressed. Absolutely not.
Upon further thought, I realize that this girl could have easily been raped if she had been wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Her clothing had nothing to do with it.
I was wrong, and I retract my earlier comment. I apologize.
TDN: “I agree that the misunderstanding may be due to differing definitions. Let me ask you this – would you agree that rape is assault using sex organs? Would you agree that lust might have a dark side? Would you agree that two people might view some random subject differently?
Would you be amenable to agreeing with anything at all?”
Oh yeah. I totally agree that we need to have a set of words to decribe a crime of what we think of when we say rape or sexual assault. As far as the crimes go, they are very specific in their definitions. To me, the general definition of sexual assault refers to an unwarranted and uninvited intrusion of the sexual area of another person. I can give you the statute from CO if you want but it is long and tedious and very far off this thread. I agree that there are many cases that are centered over whether the victim consented to the action. That is typically a main issue of contention in trial.
Lust can have a dark side, but I think even with acquaintnace rapes, there is more to than simple lust. I also believe that if a person takes advantage of a passed out girl at a college party, he is very likely to do it again. People with that disposition, especially in adulthood, are very likely to repeat their behavior.
Absolutely none.
alice, I don’t see where you disagree with me. The advice you’d offer to guys seems to be advice predicated on the idea that rape is an unacceptable way to get sex. Which is only advice you’d give to someone who might use rape as a way to get sex. If someone is using rape as a way to get sex, isn’t rape, to them, about sex?
Of course it’s not about sex to the victim; nor is it about sex to many rapists. But for these particular asshole guys we’re talking about here, it seems to be.
I think we’re using some word in very different ways, but I’m not quite sure.
Daniel
Obviously, by wearing those tight jeans and going to a bar for the evening, he was asking to be hauled into an alley and raped. Obviously. :rolleyes:
Evil submit, bad submit.
Please disregard the fragment first sentence. Moving on…
If you have known a male who was raped, did he indicate to you that it seemed to be a sex act? Did he think it was much different than other times he’d been assaulted, if he had a comparison?
Rape is about commiting a violent, aggressive act on another person to satisfy some need the rapist has. That need probably has nothing to do with sex except on the surface.
Some murders kill to obtain sexual release. Is that a sex act? Or do we have to involve genitals.
Yeah, I’m just throwing random thoughts out there to try to give people some other way to look at this.
I know, or at least used to know, several. Typically they’re gay or gay-appearing men who were raped by other men. Many of them quite brutally, and in most cases the rapist did not claim to be gay.
I must admit that I don’t know any men who have been raped by women.
Since a great deal of male-on-male rape is in the form of extreme gaybashing (although date rape can be a problem in gay dating situations just as much as in straight), much of the discussion about male-on-male rape takes place in the context of discussing violence against gay men. Many of the points made about how rape is used to control women apply equally to how violence is used to control gay men. Both are considered inferiors who need to be reminded to stay in their place.
Great Questions.
I know of very few cases that involve anal rape of men by men outside of prison or jail. One involved Mongolian nationals where a gang raped a person because he defied their demands. The Defedants in that action claimed that it was a cultural thing. They were prosecuted and found guilty. I have to say though, that this crime is very much a crime men commit. I have never seen a case of a woman raping a man. I know Donahue had a show on it, but :rolleyes:
I have seen 2 cases of female on female rape charges, but they were dismissed for lack of proof. I have seen literally hundreds of cases of men raping women. It’s not comparable.
In my opinion, anyone, man or woman, who is raped should go see a rape counsellor from a reputable crisis center or a reputable police department. IMO, the sooner the better. There are a lot of issue that take a looong time (if ever) to deal with and professional counselling can help.
Lastly, no one deserves to be raped with the sole exception of child molesters. (Hell, may not be a nice thought but at least I’m honest)
How they justify it is none of my concern, really. I don’t care what they say to make it okay for them. it’s still wrong. They still know it’s wrong. It stops being about sex the second they have to force. Then it’s about “I said yes, and I’m going to take it and you can’t stop me.” That isn’t sex. That’s aggression. How you can call it anything else is beyond me.
Sorry if I offended you, but you’re the one making justifications, here. You agree it’s a crime, but you expect the victims to shoulder some of the burden of that crime simply because you don’t like me calling men you’ve known monsters. That’s total bullshit. They sure as hell weren’t men. Or they would have taken responsibility for their actions. There is no excuse. None. I don’t care how great they are in every other aspect. In a way, that makes it even more reprehensible.
lee, your post was great, and I agree with everything you said.
I would absolutely call that a crime about sex, even call it a sex act. Like I said, I think we may be using the word “sex” differently.
Again, I think it matters because educating teenage boys away from sexual predation seems to be key to me, and if sex is a part of the motive for some rapes, then the sexual aspect needs to be addressed in the education. If there’s never a sexual aspect in any rape, then talking about sexuality in the education is a waste of time.
Daniel
When I was 14 (1984), I told two different guys, in two separate situations, when they were putting serious pressure on me, “Well, it’s my body!” Both of them retorted, “Well, I don’t care if it’s your body!”
The first guy was absolutely spoiled rotten by his family. I have no doubt that I was one of very few people to ever have said no to him about anything. He wanted sex, and he was used to getting what he wanted when he wanted it. So with him, it started out being about sex, but when I didn’t give in immediately, it became a temper tantrum. I swear to you, he whined.
The second guy was the one I mentioned earlier. I think he was in a gang; I know that he was, well, delinquent, for lack of a better term. He wanted sex, and he was used to using violence and aggression to get what he wanted. And almost did, except that I started kicking up a fuss before I was completely overpowered. So with him, it was always about sex; he wouldn’t have enjoyed it any less with someone who was crying and begging him to stop. At least the first guy was trying to get a “yes” from me, even if a reluctant one.
So in both cases, what I did and wore was incidental. Both of them already had a well-established sense of entitlement, and neither had a sense of responsibility for their actions. It wasn’t me; it was them. They didn’t think they were behaving wrongly, but they were.
Oh, and FTR, in the first instance, I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Not Daisy Dukes, just shorts. In the second, I was wearing jeans and a sweater. Not painted-on jeans, just jeans.
And yes, lee, that was a great post.
I agree with the sentiment but I disagree with the syntax. Rape is rape. no question. All forms of rape are evil. However, there are times when you need to differentiate between types of rape. It doesn’t make one type more justifiable because we have categorized them. Sometimes, like in this debate, we have talked about rape subtype A and rape subtype B. Call it what you will but there sometimes is a need to differentiate between such horrific acts. I have always been very careful to still refer to them as rape so as to not to legitimize either of them. Please do not misconstrue that.
The reason that we have to care about the excuses is so that we can stop raising our sons to be rapists. We need to make sure that our sons know that no means no, today that is a joke to many.
I tried floating the idea to a group of college men that immediately prior to the first time you initiate sex with someone, you should obtain verbal consent. The idea did not float. It was too much to ask, as she might say no. They said it would make then sound unsure so she might back out. It was cumbersome and laughable. So much as saying the word, “Now?” and waiting for positive acknowlegement before thrusting inside her was soundly decried. One word was too much to ask of them. Even if this would both reduce the number of rapes and reduce the chance that a woman would “cry rape” it was too much to ask. Afterall, if she did not want it, she would not be in the situation at all.
Trust me…that’s your opinion.
Been both. You seem pretty sure rape is worse than getting hit. It is for you. It isn’t for everyone.
There’s a road a few miles from my home which I drive fairly often to get to a nearby shopping center. Several months ago, a woman driving along that road was stopped by a pedestrian who told her there was something wrong with her car. When she pulled into a side street to investigate it, he raped her. In the interest of self preservation, avoidance of rape and general respectability, should I stop driving along that road? The shopping center it leads to is on the other side of a river from me and, if I were to detour around it, I’d wind up going several miles out of my way.
I read prisoner’s comments in the linked thread. I found them sexist and insulting to men and women alike. The men I know in a certain group range from Christian to Atheist to Wiccan. These men I have danced with and flirted with cover that range. With one exception whose religious affiliation I don’t know and who is routinely pointed out to women as not entirely safe, I have never felt unsafe around these men and I haven’t heard of a case of rape. Apparently the Christian men prisoner associates with aren’t nearly as trustworthy. If that’s the case, I can see why some people dislike my religion.
If a man has trouble controlling himself around me, I’m sorry, but that’s his problem not mine and to blame me for his sin is about as outrageous and irresponsible as it gets. prisoner has posited that the world is going to pieces. If so, it’s because of attitudes like his.
CJ
(bolding mine)
In the context of violence, huh? How refreshing.
I actually know a man who was raped (I may know more; it’s not something I’d expect people to confide to just anybody). He’s an average, middle-class, straight guy. Beaten and raped by a “friend”. I would never think of asking him what he was wearing when his then-roommate decided to beat him, rape him, and then walk out of their apartment. My friend ran away and didn’t tell anybody at the time. I found out ~15 years after it happened. He doesn’t think of the rape as a sex act–more as an extension of the beating this guy was giving him.
and on preview…
Yes, we must be using the word “sex” differently. Rape is an act of violence against someone that includes something that resembles what happens when people have sex. We don’t call an assault a sparring match even though the two activities have actions in common.
Could I suggest that sex implies conesnt where as another word may be better to describe the physical actions involved in a rape? I would suggest assault, sexual assault, or the like. We could probably use the literal definition of coitus but, too me, that is still too close to calling it sex.
(I like the anology to a fight and a sparring match. Great distinction.)
I read this as if reading about alien creatures. The idea that men might feel like this is awful. I am glad I don’t live inside that sought of mind, and sad that I share the same gender as such people.
I like this too. It seems very clear.