Oh, I think that it definitely isn’t—certainly not all by itself. For one thing, in order to solve the problems purely with population shrinkage, we’d need a massive revolution in most people’s attitudes toward family and society. And that’s just not going to happen. We’d have a better chance of persuading all Americans to install solar panels and ride bicycles to work, starting tomorrow—and what’s the likelihood of that happening?—than we would of persuading, say, one-half of Americans just to forget about ever having kids.
No, IMO our most effective ways to counter excessive environmental/resource loading are, roughly in order of likely usefulness, (1) marketizing the environmental costs of waste and resource use, (2) limiting waste and resource use by direct government regulation, and (3) developing technological geewhizzery like carbon sequestration plants and more efficient renewable energy systems. That, plus some of the good-old-fashioned-common-sense-and-thrift that tend to get somewhat undervalued in a heavily consumerist market culture.
But population has a role to play here as well, even if a comparatively small one. At the very least, we can certainly conclude that population growth does multiply the impact of unsustainable lifestyles, so it’s environmentally damaging to have more children than we genuinely want.
Back to more or less the OT, it does seem that childlessness is on the rise in recent decades, as are smaller families, although I don’t know why or where it will go from here:
It’s interesting to think about… I wonder what would have happened if I had truly not wanted to have kids – would that have been a dealbreaker for my husband? Did he want kids bad enough to leave me me if I hadn’t wanted them? He’s in Florida this week for business so I can’t ask him. I will ask, though, when he comes home late tonight.
For myself, if Kevin hadn’t wanted kids I think I would have married him anyway. I don’t remember having a super-strong biological urge to procreate. As I said before, having kids just seemed like the next thing to do, so we did it. I think that, if Kevin hadn’t wanted kids, or if I hadn’t been able to have them, we would have still gotten married. Maybe we’d have changed our minds later and had kids that would be younger now… or maybe we’d just have remained childless. But you know? I think we’d still be happy together – we’d have a different life than the one we have now, but still a happy life, I’ll bet. After all, he and I are the ‘core’ of our family, and we’d still be us.
It’s true that all of us today are products of a long, long line of people who all survived to reproduce at least once-- yet those of us who don’t bear children today are not the first generation ever to do so. Of course, a huge number of those who left no descendants are those who died in infancy or childhood. Still, a smaller number of people grew to adulthood, and either died before becoming parents, or chose a life path that didn’t include such a possibility, such as religious celibacy or a career that took up most of their time. Despite not leaving direct descendants, the childless of ages past have left a huge intellectual and spiritual legacy for us.
I could consider myself as the last of a line-- I’m an only child, and on my mother’s side an only grandchild (my father’s brother has one child and no hope of more). And I’ll never have children of my body. Yet if I go back even a hundred years, I have more third and fourth cousins than I can even hope to count-- that hardly sounds like “dying out” to me!
A hundred years from now, no one will find my name among their ancestors. My own little stream will evaporate, and never trickle its way to another and another, and back to the ocean-- but I’m content nevertheless, simply to be part of the rain.
I’m assuming that other people have already answered this, but I want to chime in here.
At this point in my life, I not only love, but I like both my parents very much. I enjoy spending time with them either together or alone, and doing activities with them. They are going to be visiting this summer and we’re going to be going to the local fair and I honestly can’t wait to spend the time with them, and see the shows, etc, etc.
10 years ago, I couldn’t even stand to be in the same room as my mother. I wanted to stab her with a rusty spoon at every opportunity. She is very much as you describe your mother - self-centered, selfish, and obtuse about things that she shouldn’t be obtuse about. However, when I quit relating to her as only my mother, and started to relate to her as another woman - as her own human being rather than just the person who gave birth to me, I met a really interesting person, with cool ideas, excellent tips for a variety of things, a great sense of humour, and a kindness streak a mile wide.
Essentially, she didn’t change, but I grew up and was able to recognize these things about her.
For that reason, I now find myself, in my mid 30’s, thinking about having a child, and not being horrified at the idea. In fact, the only part that disturbs me now is the horror show that having a baby will create in my now mid-30’s body - however, I now have the financial wherewithal that if it bothers me that much, I’ll get a boob lift and a tummy tuck.
Honestly, I think sometimes younger people think about children in a negative way, because emotionally they are still somewhat childlike themselves (that’s NOT a criticism, BTW). Then all of a sudden you get old, you’ve done a boat-load of really cool things, gone a bunch of really cool places, had a tonne of hedonistic, self-indulgent, selfish experiences, and you think “Huh, maybe a child would be a good idea.” Or maybe not - and both are perfectly ok choices. However, your OP really paints mothers in a bad, put-upon light, which I think is totally unfair. I think it’s possible to be a well-rounded, happy, self-actualized person, who contributes to the greater good of society, while still producing a crotch apple.
hmmm. Sounds like a failure of imagination. (Or, perhaps, simply a lack of experience .)
I see no reason to presume that the younger person does not know what he or she wants–only that the younger person is lacking the experience to make accurate assessments of some situations.
I am quite willing to accept and believe that New Girl knows exactly what she wants and will never change he mind.
On the other hand,when she posts that
she displays an opinion that seems seriously circumscribed by a lack of experience. One hopes that such lack of experience is due to youth and not to attitudes fossilized at a young age and carried into senescence.
Choosing to refrain from childbearing and childrearing is a personal decision for which she should not be criticized.
Making a sweeping generalization that no person likes their parents and that no person believes that he or she was raised well indicates a seriously narrow view of the world that is much more gently attributed to callow youth than ignorant bigotry.
My take on that is that overpopulation IS an issue we need to take seriously; in my opinion, not taking it seriously is going to be a Very Bad Thing in a very short time. I have no opinions on the morality of it, save that people who say birth control is immoral really get under my skin.
But, it does happen in nature - bacteria, rabbits, and deer (to name a few examples) do it all the time. We are seeing huge amounts of deer and rabbits around these parts because human encroachment on habitat (and going out and shooting them) has reduced the natural predators of the deer and rabbits. I don’t know if we’re arguing the same side here; exponential growth does tail off as all the resources are used up and/or disease runs rampant through an over-crowded population. This is what humans look forward to if we don’t grow in a sustainable fashion.
Humans do indeed make these kinds of equations funky; humans have more children under stressed conditions. The average African woman has six children.
As I said, under ideal conditions, the middle of a population increase appears exponential. But those ideal conditions don’t last very long, and the tailing off that happens at the end of the increase is a gradual process, not an abrupt process (with some rare exceptions). The rabbits will reach a population in rough equilibrium with their surroundings, and there the population will remain–it’s not a situation where they’ll reach a (for the rabbits) crisis population.
ALso, though, human populations can follow different processes, for a variety of reasons. While predictions about the effects of our technology on our environment have proven true, and while population is one factor in those effects, Malthusian predictions about our population have invariably proven false.
Would a 35 year-old person ever tell a 28 year-old who was deciding to have a baby that they lack the experience to make accurate assesments of the situation? Would they trot out the ‘When I was your age…’ story to the 20something who is having a kid the way that they do to the 20something who doesn’t ever want to have kids?
In my experience, even strangers feel perfectly free to assume that I lack the experience to know that I don’t ever want to have kids, and often will tell me ‘I didn’t want them when I was your age either, but then I changed my mind when I grew up. You’ll change your mind too in five or ten years.’
Deciding to have kids or deciding to not have them is an equally life changing thing, especially when you’re talking about permanent surgical sterilization, but I rarely hear people offer as much criticism for the former decision as the latter. I have been told that at 28, I am not ‘old enough’ to know that I will never want kids. My mother got pregnant with me when she was 28. No one ever told her that she wasn’t ‘old enough’ to know that she wanted to have a kid. Why is the presumption always seeming to happen with respect to one decision rather than the other?
I’m not defending the generalization that New Girl made about nobody liking their parents. I am, however, suggesting that it’s inappropriate to assume that she is young because she doesn’t want kids, or that her attitude toward that will change as she gets older. I also think it’s a bit rude to interject a ‘When I was your age…’ story to someone regarding their decision to not have children unless a person is asked something like ‘Did you always know you wanted to have kids?’
Keep in mind that a lot of people who have chosen specifically to not have children, especially those of us who knew at an early age that we did not want them, have often had our position questioned (and sometimes criticized harshly) for years. I’ve even had doctors throw some harsh criticism at me about my decision. One rudely suggested that instead of sterlization, what I should do was go to a psychiatrist so that I could learn to accept my role as a woman and learn to love babies. It makes a person a little sensitive to tales of life experience. If someone else’s life experience was different, that’s fine. Up until they begin to project theirs on to me, that is.
Reasons? I think we as a species have lost our way. There is still no sign of any prospect of long term peace on this planet.
And to those who argue that there is still enough space for many more, I ask you this. What is your definition of space? How big is this “space”? 10 meters by 10 meters? 1 meter by 1 meter? 1 kilometer by 1 kilometer?
Whatever happened to the vast expanses of uninhabited nature, toxin and pollution free, where one could roam for days and days without seeing another human, where one’s soul could be invigorated and replenished, simply by being there? What has happened to the rivers where one could merely bend down and drink freely? What is happening, on a daily basis, to old growth forests, the “lungs” of this planet? Where are the times when one could look up at the night sky, and actually see stars? I mean, really see them, so clear that one feels like reaching out and touching them.
I think that we are a species under stress, increasing each day, and I think that many of our social ills and dysfunctions are a result of less and less access to real “space”. Space is not some grid one draws on a map, to which one adds a multitude of red and blue pins, calculated by means of an Excel spreadsheet, and whereupon one stands back and says, “ah, you see, we can fit more in”.
More and more I hear, “I GOTTA GET OUT!!” To which I reply, “Out of what, and to where?”
New Girl, I understand that asking you makes me a total cad, so I won’t ask. If, however, you wanted to tell us your age, it seems there are a bunch of people who are interested :).
catsix, while I wholeheartedly understand your resentment of that kind of condescension, I think in this case the assessment of New Girl age was based pretty exclusively on her remark about no one *really * liking their parents, which you must admit is a very youthful remark.
I adore both my parents. Did they make some mistakes in raising me? Undoubtedly - no one is perfect. But the big thing is, they always *tried * to be the best parents they could. I not only love them, I enjoy their company. Any flaws I possess (and the list is endless) are my own damned responsibility, not theirs! All three of us children (ha! I’m the youngest) absolutely love our parents, and yet all three have remained childless by choice.
I am 50, childless, and eternally grateful to be so. I can’t *not * admit that my viewpoint (which I have pretty much always held) influences my perceptions. But I think some of the parents here are glossing over a bit.
When I was in my early twenties, my then boyfriend and I used to ask the middle-aged women (mostly secretaries in those days - the world has moved on a bit) we worked with “If you had it to do all over again, would you have your children?” Almost without exception (and we asked quite a few), the response was “I love my kids dearly, but no, I probably wouldn’t.” And the ironic thing is, I think they probably had it easier parenting than contemporary parents do! I’m absolutely horrified by the demands that are made of parents these days - the social stigma attached to not attending every little function they might be involved with (graduation from kindergarten, ye gods and little fishes!), the social demand for supervision on middle kids (hell, I was babysitting myself at 11!), the social requirement to schedule every moment of a child’s life with enriching experiences or athletic stuff (every game of which the parents must attend), etc. And these women work full time, whereas my generation’s mothers for the most part did not (My mom did, but she was somewhat unusual).
The fact is, your life *does * tend to revolve around the kids, and you *do * lack the time, money, and/or energy to pursue many of the activities that you otherwise would. Prior to having children, your life could blamelessly be primarily for your own benefit (obviously there are other duties, but few as all-encompassing), and now your absolute first consideration in virtually every decision *must * be your children. That’s not quite the same as not being an individual anymore, but it’s a massive change in lifestyle, devoted to a being who, by biological necessity, spends its first few years completely amoral and selfish (part of raising them is teaching them morality and selflessness). That doesn’t mean you don’t enjoy it; I’m sure you do (although I can’t quite wrap my mind around why, but I accept that it’s so). But the fact is, most of New Girl’s list of reasons not to have kids were, while rather exaggerated, were not so very far off the mark as some of you claim, and I think it’s a trifle disingenuous to deny these things.
That’s fine. Different strokes and all that. My big problem about having people kids is not either individual or societal pressure to have them - I was never the recipient of any but the most casual from acquaintances. But what I greatly fear is a tendency (I think stronger in women than men) to hugely romanticize parenthood, and go into it totally unprepared for the enormous amount of work, time, and money it takes to rear even one child. And the others who just kind-of fall into it because “it’s what you do.” I wish to heaven that, instead of having to take measures to prevent pregnancy, you’d have to take those same measures to get pregnant. And I’d love to see there be some kind of magical requirement that you have to demonstrate at least a fair clue as to what parenthood *really * involves before you could!
To sum up, I have no problem with people who choose to have kids knowing the prices they will pay over many years. But those who do not have and still have children scare the heck out of me! I think a lot of current social problems probably have as a contributing factor the fact that their parents were unprepared and might well have been unwilling to have kids had they truly known what it would (or at least should) do to their lives!
You know, when I was young, I would’ve been offended by that remark (or, to put it in the famous comical retort, I would’ve “resembled” that remark!). I didn’t like my parents (well, I did like my dad), or think I was reared (sorry, my H.S. English teacher will hunt me down & draw and quarter me if I use the word you did, it was her pet peeve) well. I had a lot of resentment about the emotional damage I’d been through.
Now, I totally understand and agree. And I have begun to approach liking my mom, though not unreservedly. And I especially think I was reared well when I see the way so many kids get away with absolute murder and are a nuisance to the general public in many ways because of it. I know damn well I was not allowed to act like that in public, and I would never dream of sassing back an adult. Yeah, mistakes were made, and my mom was not entirely an emotionally fit parent, but she did care for my physical needs (well, most of them), and teach me right from wrong, and instill a sense of responsibility in me, which is more than some parents can be bothered to do. So, overall, they get a passing grade from me.
As I’ve said before, hopefully you heal from the hurts with time. Unfortunately, you don’t do it if you don’t learn to tell yourself the truth about your childhood, yourself, and your parents - not at all an easy task.
Whatever inappropriate remarks various people make, intruding on private decisions regarding procreation, (and I agree that some people do and I have stated my opposition to such intrusions), I was responding only to your own broad brush generalization.
Your stated position was that the mere utterance of the phrase “When I was your age…” rendered everything that followed it as deliberate claim that the younger person would definitely change her or his mind with age. LHoD did not actually make that claim, nor have others who have commented on the OP’s apparent youth made that claim. We have simply noted that some of her expressions indicate a lack of experience. If you declare that any story that begins “When I was your age…” can only end with a prediction that the younger person will change her or his beliefs, you are creating a straw man.
I rather liked the OP, I felt exactly the same way until I was in my 30s.
Becoming a mother often makes women forgive their own moms. Not always, by a long stretch; plenty of mothers fail as grandmothers, and don’t or can’t support their daughters.
But you might find the task of forgiving worthwhile anyway. It’s very peaceful to realize you’re truly separate from your parents, that their flaws are not yours, that they are merely two ordinary human beings, and that they have regrets.
Although I had all of the doubts that you list (being a Mom was hardly part of my feminist ideal, much less a SAHM), I’m finding that my children are worth it, at least so far (they’re only 2). It’s added so many dimensions to my life. I hope that by loving them unambigiously, recklessly and with wild abandon, they’ll be more accepting of their flaws and mine. There are no guarantees - but that’s the way life is.
Before we had our daughter, I made it a point of grilling every middle aged parent I could (my job puts me in front of a lot of different people) with many, many questions on parenting, including the “would you do it again?” question. If I ever met a single person, male or female, who said they’d rather not have kids given a second chance, I don’t remember them. Often the responses were remarkably enthusiastic, along the lines of “Gosh, yes, it’s been the coolest thing ever.” And in many cases the question evoked the response “If I could do it over again, I think we’d have more” or “I wish we could have had more.” I’m sure one or two people might have said otherwise, but if so they were outnumbered 200 to 1.
This was fairly recently, too.
It’s not at all disingenuous. The problem with New Girl’s posts is that she doesn’t seem to understand her perspective is wholly subjective; she pays some lip service to the concept, but then comes up with boners like “Nobody likes their parents,” based on the fact that she doesn’t like her parents. Her reasons stated in the OP, aside from the silly overpopulation bit, are all perfectly, 100% reasonable for herself. But the OP projected it out a bit; there was an element of “These reasons are good for me, and so why aren’t they good for YOU?” - akin to her “I don’t like both my parents, therefore nobody does” post. It’s every bit as stupid and deniable as me saying that everyone who doesn’t like their parents is an ungrateful asshole because MY parents were great so therefore all parents are great.
Applied to herself, her arguments are insurmountable. Applied to anyone else, of course they’re deniable. They don’t apply to me or my wife - obviously, since we had our kid on purpose, and incidentally I like both my parents (my wife doesn’t like her father, so hey, mixed marriages can work!) They are objectively wrong if projected beyond New Girl’s own perspective.
It is really worth fearing in general? People have done it for a million years and generally speaking it usually works out. In some individual cases, there’s the potential for catastrophe, but is this really a general problem? Are things going to hell in a handbasket?
I mean, to hear some people trot out the usual Internet memes like “It should be as hard to get pregnant as it is to not get pregnant” or “People need a license to drive a car, they should have a license to have a baby” and all that crap, you’d think this whole childbearing thing was out of control.
But in fact, the birth rate of almost every country in the industrialized world is worrisomely low and below the replacement rate - in many cases WAY below replacement rates, presenting a significant possibility of demographic effects that will seriously damage the Western economy. Virtually all First World countries rely on immigration to keep their populations afloat and prevent their work forces from contracting, and that’s not going to last forever, since those countries are getting richer and the impetus to emigrate will eventually level off. And in most cases the receiving countrues do a crappy job of embracing the immigrants, so they don’t even get the full benefit.
You may know someone who got into parenthood too early or stupidly, but the fact is that our countries aren’t afloat in unnecessary babies. Not that I’m saying people should have babies if they don’t want them, but speaking as a parent, geez, we could use some less unfair tax laws. I can’t even claim my kid as a dependent.
In the interests of full disclosure, one sentence from my first post–“understand that as folks get older, their lives change such that having children can deepen their lives immeasurably”–could be read that way. I think it’s clear from context that I didn’t intend that, but it would have been better if I’d added a few more weasel words (e.g., “Understand that as some folks get older, their lives occasionally but not always change such that for them, it may be that having children has the possibility of deepening their lives in a way that may or may not be measurable”).
If that sentence confused anyone, I apologize; please feel free to insert the necessary weasel words in it, as I intended to imply that children deepen the lives of some folks as those particular folks age, not that they can deepen the lives of even the most ardent child-hater.
I would say, if you don’t want to have kids, then don’t. No other reason is needed. But it does dilute the point that some people just don’t want kids when you throw arguments of everyone hates their parents or I’m being noble and saving the world from overpopulation.
I’m from from anti-child, but realize that raising children myself is not the best path for my life.
Oh, but it does. Around the first of March, I spent about $500 to spend just three days with my parents. Why? Because I love being with them! Hubby kept the kids so that I could have uninterrupted time to visit to my heart’s content. And as eager as I was to get back to my family back home, it was still hard to leave them. I love, respect, and like both my parents very much. Did they make mistakes? Damn skippy. That’s the human condition. But never EVER during my growing up was I in doubt that they loved me more than their own lives.
I know that’s right. For real mistakes made, of course, but also for all the imagined “wrongs” they did. You wonder why they hold you back, keep you from doing all that fun stuff (“Come on, Mom, it’s not a bit dangerous!”), make all these rules. Then you have kids and wonder how they let us do so much! (“What do you mean, you want to ride that ATV all by yourself. Do you know what could happen?”) In the end, you do a lot of what they did–keep your kids from the really bad stuff as much as you can, and let go sometimes (and pray a lot!) when you want desperately to hold on. And when they have their own kids, you hope they forgive all the mistakes you made!
