While I can imagine, in a theoretical sense, a situation in which it would be a bad idea to bring a baby into the world, I can honestly say that I haven’t experienced it in real life. Every friend or family member that I’ve ever known who has had a baby has always been well-prepared for the baby, both emotionally and financially.
So we really just live in very different universes.
I am rearranging a few things to respond to themes:
You misunderstand me. I mean that I am not going to talk badly to you, the outsider. Even if I have deep, serious regrets about my sister’s pregnancy, I would not say to you, a friend, “God, how could she be so stupid? What is wrong with her?” because that would be rejecting my new family member. I mean, if I am showing you a picture of my 3-year old niece, would you expect me to point out that her very conception was a bad idea and lord, my sister’s life would be so much better if she had aborted the child? Can you understand why I wouldn’t say that?
I am not telling you that you are wrong. I am suggesting that there may be more going on than you are aware of. You asked a question–“why do people react like this?” and I am giving one reason that I know of.
Of course. More often than not, honestly. And I feel really strongly about it: I’ve got one son, and my husband and I were married over ten years before we conceived him because we wanted to be ready on every possible axis.
But I don’t know any people that I think are a bad thing. And once a person is one of my people, I’m going to show a certain loyalty. I may wish I didn’t have to take that responsibility on, but I am not going to deny the responsibility nor blame the new person for it.
In a conversation with a friend or co-worker? Absolutely. Are you not? Have you never been ambivalent about something but put on a more positive appearance? Imagine your spouse took a job and you had deep reservations about whether it was the right thing: in all honesty, you weren’t sure they were qualified and that they might be getting in over their heads, but it was a huge compliment to them and a big raise. Would you really go into all that with everyone? Or would you just say you were thrilled and it was really exciting and you were so proud?
I may spend a lot of time worrying about a “bad idea” pregnancy. I may have blunt conversations with the parents-to-be, I may be having long, extended WTF-fests with other people who are equally close to both me and the child. But I can put all that aside for the length of a conversation and just be glad towards the new person. Not ABOUT the new person and that they exist, but towards them now that they do.
Just so you know, the median wage is $31,111. Median household income was about $53K in the northeast and west coast, and about $45K in the midwest and south.
On a global scale, you’re beginning to sound disturbingly like those missionary priests they used to bring in to school when I was young. There are very good reasons why women are encouraged to delay having children.
I’m with even sven on this one. One’s quality of life -or parent worthiness- can’t be measured in dollar signs any more than one’s willingness to breastfeed is.
Also, the terms median and bottom 45% are two different things, as are percent and percentile.
The median household income may be near $50k, but that doesn’t change the fact that the median income for women is more like $35k.
In the historical context the the nuclear family and the single parent family not living in dire poverty are statistically marginal also. Most people who survived at any level of comfort and safety lived in extended family bands where the group, and not the individual member, especially if the member in question was a baby, was what mattered. Does the guy who works at Best Buy have a meaningless life? He and his children have a considerably more limited and dangerous life than someone who had the foresight to plan a good safety net for themselves.
I come from a big, extended very connected to. We help and support each other all the time, but it’s never no questions asked. There are always rules and guidelines that have to be followed. Violate enough of the more strigent ones and an erring member would (and has been) cast out and thrown to the wolves (metaphorically at least since the 1940s).
There are no such rules in our family.
Yeah. And the median wage, as I pointed out, is $31,111, so good for women. I’m sure you would agree, women should use birth control until they are sure they are ready to have a baby.
Apparently, your bar for a decent life is much higher than mine. While I don’t agree with people not getting at the very least a high school education, if they manage to get a skill(s) that will likely give them regular employment with pay that will pay for a decent place to live, good food, insurance and the ability to save at least something, that to me is a decent life. If they genuinely love and care about their kids, see that they learn social skills, help with schoolwork as much as possible, get them into college or a trade school, that is a decent life for a kid. Not perfect, but also not likely to end up impoverished, abused and/or undereducated. To me, the biggest responsibility parents have is to ensure that their kids, at the very least, don’t end up having a negative effect on society. Nor should any baby be born to parent(s) who don’t really want it and are really ready for it.
I guess so. Or it could be that you can’t imagine a situation in which it would be a bad idea to bring a baby into the world because you think the fact that a baby exists trumps any and all problems it brings with it.
How is that rejecting the baby? You are talking about your sister and her decisions, not the baby.
Abortion is certainly not the only response to a bad idea pregnancy. Also, by the time the child is 3 years old, the issue is moot WRT what I am talking about here.
OK, good point. However, there have been times when I’ve been well aware of what is going on, such as the example I gave above, yet there are still people who are going to go off the deep end. It is almost as if the woman and her life fade into the background and all these sorts of people (almost always women) can see/think about is “baby”. Which I don’t get - if they are really that baby focused, why aren’t they concerned about the kind of life it will be born into?
Good for you - seriously. I wish everyone put that kind of thought into it.
I am not talking people here, I’m talking pregnancy. Before there is a real baby - on the ground as we say with puppies. When abortion or adoption are still possible outcomes.
I’m not talking casual friends or co-workers here, I’m talking close friends and family. People who should and most likely do know the details and background.
That is what I am talking about, as that is not what I am seeing. Realistic responses to a pregnancy rather than the automatic reaction that every bump is a blessing.
The two are too entangled to separate by that point. Bad-talking the fact of the baby’s existence is very closely related to bad-talking the baby.
Well, I wouldn’t say “I wish she’d have given her away instead of keeping her” either. What I don’t think you understand is that the whole thing is moot once the mother decides to keep the baby. It’s as moot at 15 weeks pregnant as it is at the baby’s eighteenth birthday party. Either way, I don’t get a vote.
Perhaps you are not as privy as you think you are? The one example you give, you aren’t close to the woman’s mom. You don’t know if that woman’s mom had “WTF?” conversations with her friends. You know she wanted your friend to keep the baby, but she may well have seen (or thought she saw) some deep ambivalence in your friend about giving the baby up, and so wanted to make it clear that she would be supportive of the choice to keep the baby. And your friend may well have been showing one side of her ambivalence to you, the childless-by-choice friend, and another to her mother.
Honestly, if someone in my family/very close friend had a “bad idea” pregnancy, there’s only about 4 people in the world (including my spouse) that I would let see my frustration and worry. For how many people are you one of their closest intimates?
Because, as I said above, that choice is off the table once the mother announces she’s made up her mind. There’s no point in talking about what you might wish she had done, and you don’t want to risk poisoning the well. If you spend most of a year telling everyone how much you regret the pregnancy and what a stupid twat your sister is, how are you going to react when you meet your new family member? How would you feel as a child if you discovered your aunt had spent your mom’s pregnancy trying to convince her not to keep you?
They may know. Doesn’t mean they are going to air it all out.
That is what I am talking about, as that is not what I am seeing. Realistic responses to a pregnancy rather than the automatic reaction that every bump is a blessing.
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Thing is, that’s not possible. From all indications before his birth, Ted Kaczynski should have turned out well. Jeffrey Dahmer’s father was an analytical chemist and his parents were married. I’ve never read anything about either of them that said anything about their parents not being prepared for kids, or that their parents did anything that made them turn out the way they did. But clearly they did end up having a negative effect on society. Having good parents who are in a good position to have kids isn’t a guarantee that you won’t end up having a negative effect on society.
Plus, mouth off to the wrong person, and down the road out due to loose lips or an argument and desire to hurt you, suddenly “So-and-so thought you were an idiot to get pregnant/thought you should have been aborted/whatever” pops out of that person’s mouth, and a moment of venting years prior may wreck your relationship with the mother and child. Even if everything turned out fine and the resulting child is awesome and the mother turned out to be fabulously accomplished, it’s going to cause problems.
So even if I thought it was the worst idea ever, I would be damned careful who I expressed that exact opinion to.
I guess I’m not ever going to understand that. Is it just babies? Would it be the same thing to “bad talk” about her not putting the baby in a child seat in the car?
I am not talking about getting a vote, I’m talking about people becoming all excited about a pregnancy without knowing, or even waiting to find out, how the woman herself feels about it. Tho that does seem like putting in a vote - “It’s wonderful that you are pregnant and are going to keep the baby!!”
I didn’t really care what her mom may have said to her friends, what mattered was my friends whole life was completely changed by the actions of her mother and some other relatives. If the mom had seen or thought she’d seen ambivalence, she should have talked to my friend and helped her to make a decision, instead of pushing her to keep the baby. My friend wasn’t childless-by-choice, she was someone who was trying to make the best decision in a bad situation, and instead she ended up raising a child she seemed to only like well enough, on her own, with little money. She wasn’t able to do much other than work and stay home for a long time, except when the co-owner of her dog paid for it or when we would treat her to a meal out or something. It would have been so much better for her and the child if she had stuck with her original plan.
Again, I am not talking about expecting to see anyone wringing their hands or whatever, but I also do not believe that the people I am talking about here are hiding any serious reservations about the suitability of a baby showing up at that time and place.
And again, I am talking about those who don’t even stop to find out what choice the mother has made. And even if she has made the decision to have and keep the baby, is it really a good idea to pretend like, say, a 16 year old doing so is the same thing as a mature woman in a loving stable relationship with at least a decent lifestyle? Why the automatic celebration when it’s obvious that a woman with four kids by four different men is again pregnant? Shouldn’t a close friend or relative say something to a girl working her way thru college who becomes pregnant in her junior year?
I guess there isn’t much difference to me how I would feel had I said something or not, I’d still view the baby as a serious mistake (if it was). Not that I’d have spent a year going around talking about it.
And as a child who later found out that she was conceived because her mother was tired of being in New Jersey and wanted my father to get out of seminary, move back home and get a “real” job, I’d say the child isn’t surprised to find out details later on. I was well aware that my father resented me for some reason, so finding out why didn’t make much difference. Might have been better if I had been adopted out.
Within the family, they should. Pretending everything is going to be sunshine and roses when the baby is born isn’t going to make it so.
Yeah, good point. I should have said the biggest responsibility parents have is to do their very best ensure that their kids, at the very least, don’t end up having a negative effect on society. I have to imagine that more negative effects on society come from poor parenting than from good parenting!
Eh, I don’t worry about that kind of shit. No matter what the subject, no matter what is said or how, someone will cause trouble. Good friends sluff it off or ask about it.
No. I am not going to say I wish my family member didn’t exist. That has nothing to do with not bad talking my SISTER, it’s that I won’t suggest I resent their existence. It’s the kid. Not the sister, the kid.
You are moving goalposts. Earlier, you said you weren’t talking about what people say to the mother-to-be, but what they say to you about the pregnancy. You don’t understand why that always seem so positive. Which are we talking about?
How do you know that that wasn’t the case?
No, YOU are childless-by-choice. So your friend may well have talked to you with the part of her that wanted to give the baby up and to her mother with the part of her that wanted to keep the baby. And then, when faced with your disapproval over her choice, she put the responsibility on her mom.
Then we just have had really different experiences.
Unless you are close enough to a woman that she stays in the bathroom while you take a shit, I would assume that when she tells you she is pregnant she has 100% made up her mind to keep the baby. Prior to that choice, no woman I have ever known would have discussed the issue with anyone they weren’t extraordinarily close to.
Because it’s too late. You have to look at the situation as it is: the baby is coming. It’s a fact. You might as well concentrate on the positive to give the baby the best possible chance of being successful, and being treated as a gift and a joy seems a better foundation than having every adult sighing and shaking their head at the very thought of your existence.
That close friend or relative should say something to the girl. They shouldn’t say anything to you about the girl. That would be petty, ugly gossip about something that is too big to be gossiped about.
And I’d view it as a person. Maybe a person I felt really sorry for, but a person.
I am sorry for that. But I don’t see how you’re relationship with your father would have been better if he’d been sure to air his resentment far and wide, so that everyone knew he felt you were a bad idea.
And maybe they do. But only very privately. The fact that you are rarely included in these conversations doesn’t mean they don’t happen.
I give up - no matter how I word it, you insist on making it look like resenting a “family member”.
We are talking about people who act like each and every pregnancy is a blessing, no matter what the circumstances are. What people say to me doesn’t come into it.
Because we believed my friend - OK I’m tired of that, lets call her Lisa since I’m watching the Simpsons. We believed Lisa when she came home and told us what had happened.
Well, for one thing it wasn’t just me Lisa talked to - it’s been a long time, but I’m pretty sure she never talked to me alone about it. Also, back then I wasn’t childfree, I was child neutral; I may have even been still assuming that at some point I’d be having kids myself. Finally, Lisa came to the decision of adopting the baby out herself before she discussed it with us. She was smart enough to take a look at her life and realize the baby would be better off with adoptive parents, her mistake was in thinking she would be allowed to make that decision.
Um, you do know that pregnancy cannot be safely hidden, right? So if a woman has decided to adopt the baby out, there are going to be strangers who know that she is pregnant, never mind co-workers, friends and family. So at some point the subject is going to come up, and the assumption IME is always that the pregnancy is wanted and the baby looked forward to, and the world is sunshine, butterflies, bunnies and rainbows.
Which doesn’t mean you go about celebrating the pregnancy. Minors should not be allowed to make the decision to keep a baby. Women who have children they can’t support or have abused prior children or are on drugs that will affect the fetus shouldn’t be allowed to keep a baby, tho for some bizarre reason the law says they can have as many babies as they want. But at the very least, the vast middle ground between “being treated as a gift and a joy” or “having every adult sighing and shaking their head at the very thought of your existence” should be used. Quit celebrating and supporting the poor choices, which you don’t seem to understand is a completely different thing than the baby itself.
I have said nothing about petty, ugly gossip.
You don’t seem to be able to separate the mother from the baby.
Why do you keep bringing this up? I have said zero about airing anything far and wide, or ugly gossip.
I think I’m going to give up on you. I keep making things clear and you keep coming back to things I haven’t even said. I’ll try one more time -
A female of the human species becomes pregnant. It is obvious to anyone who knows her at all that this is not a good idea, so she should abort or adopt. Reasons could be things like severe lack of money, poor treatment of existing children, interruption of education or just plain growing up, abusive partner, etc. Why then do most people greet the news of this pregnancy with celebration? Do they not care about the baby to be at all?
This looks by now that has gone in circles, with various posters telling you similar things and you either ignoring their posts or arguing something else.
If a female told you she was pregnant, unless you’re very very close to said person, it is likely that if she tells of a pregnancy is because she already wants to have the kid. The baby is coming, she chose so. That is the assumption most people do.
If this is the case, her mind is made up, and bringing all the reasons why it may not be a good idea to raise that kid, especially if the pregnancy comment is made in public, is not polite. If you think you’re close enough to the mother that you can talk to her about those things, do so, but it is considered extremely rude to do that in public.
Hence, what you see publicly is celebration, because most people are not douches, and some of the celebration includes giving things to the new parent that will help with the baby raising in some way (baby showers, for example). Also, there may be hope that perhaps the pregnancy will be a turning point for the pregnant woman, and in that case, she needs support.
If you have not seen the “non-celebratory” side of pregnancy often, it is because you are not close to the pregnant women to see that. It is not that they may not get messages telling them their pregnancies are a bad idea, it is that you are not close enough to their inner circle or considered a part of it.
I’ve known people who have aborted, and in that case, very very few people even knew of the pregnancy. No celebrations were given because no pregnancy was acknowledged.
Yeah, that whole “reproductive rights include choices I disapprove of” thing is such a pain.
And here we are again at the **curlcoat-circus. **Let’s face it…the very notion of a child is toxic to this woman. That some people choose to have kids, happen to love them and try their darndest to bring said kids up the best that they can is just not quite good enough in her eyes.
All these kids are fucking up her life for some reason. How that happens I dunno, seeing as I can’t imagine her getting within arms distance of any critter < adult age. But they inconvenience her in some way, and apparently ‘bad idea pregnancies’ give her more of the shits than others.
So, in other words…if your baby-daddy pisses-off the minute he finds out you’re pregnant, if you don’t earn > $50k per year WITH adequate health insurance, if you’re under (whatever age she deems fit), if you might receive emotional and physical support from close family and friends when your baby arrives, if somebody (OG FORBID) throws you a baby shower, if your mum and dad offer to help care for you in your post-natal period…then you don’t deserve to have a baby. No matter how much that baby is welcomed and loved by all the extended family, curlcoat’s manifesto would see no such child arrive in this world.
Last Thursday my gorgeous daughter delivered my second grandson…to the delight of myself, my partner, great grandma and grandpa, her brothers and cousins and all of her close friends. This little boy has not come into a world of wealth, but he has so many folk around him who already love him dearly that he will not be lacking for anything. As a family we have closed-ranks so to speak. And we dare anybody to criticise my daughter’s choice to have this child. To do so would be very unwise…we are a formidable bunch when needed, and anybody who would challenge that would be very quickly put in their place!!
Now tell us all again curlcoat how you are reliant upon the largesse of the insurance-paying community to access your disability payments? :dubious: