Another problem is, it’s not always so clear-cut whether or not someone is a negative influence on society. There’s obviously going to be disagreement on political figures- are George W. Bush and Barack Obama negative influences on society, or not? You’re not going to get anything even close to universal agreement on either one. Religious figures are also going to be a source of disagreement- was Martin Luther a positive or negative influence on society? You would probably get two very different answers from a Catholic and a Lutheran. It’s also possible to be a positive influence on one society, but a negative influence on another- Christopher Columbus would be a good example of this. And then there are people who seem to be a positive influence on society at one time, but that gets called into question later on- Thomas Midgley, a key figure in the discovery of tetraethyl lead and chlorofluorocarbons, would be an example of this. His inventions seemed like a good idea at the time, but seem less so now. Some inventors’ inventions get used in ways the inventor didn’t intend or even would have been opposed to- Alfred Binet and his IQ test would be an example of this. He intended it to be used to identify children who needed extra help, it ended up being used to try to prove the superiority of some races over others.
Yeah. The chances that your child will grow up to be a Martin Luther, a Barack Obama or even a George Bush are negligible. The kid who smashes bottles on the sidewalk and tries to intimidate passersby is generally acknowledged to be a negative influence.
OK, then, someone who spends most of their life working for a company that does some morally dubious things, a company with a checkered environmental record, or a company that produces a product that has negative health effects on people.
Let me try it with the analogies you’ve brought up. Lisa is the mother. She is pregmant. She has a baby. The baby is named Anna. It is Anna who is now a person. This person willl grow up. In a few years she will be a child. In a few more years, she will be an adult. People willl have full-blown, adult conversations with Anna. For good or bad, Anna now exists, and is a member of humanity. It is the height of insensitivity to tell a specific person that he or she should never have been born.
Actually, the problem is that people keep making assumptions that are incorrect, and refusing to stay with what I actually asked. Such as in your #1 …
I have never said that the female told me she was pregnant. As I said above, pregnancy gets next to impossible to hide at some point, so people do find out that she is pregnant eventually unless she miscarries or has an abortion.
And even those who tell you they are pregnant may not have made a decision - I think it was flatlined who told a story like that about a co-worker of hers.
Polite?? You are worried about being polite in a case of a baby likely to be born into a bad situation?
Besides, this again isn’t anything I said. Read my OP, it was asking about those who immediately go off the deep end with joy about any pregnancy, no matter what the situation is. Nothing about going about spreading gossip, or being rude or any of that.
Support is one thing - acting like the pregnancy is the best thing every is quite another. This is one thing that no one here seems to see, that one can offer support without being overjoyed.
I don’t care about that, which is why it is not in the OP, and why I keep turning those posts aside. That has nothing to do with my question, and really your whole post here has very little to do with the post you quoted. Is it simply not possible for those who love babies to answer a simple question or two? Here it is again -
Originally Posted by curlcoat
A female of the human species becomes pregnant. It is obvious to anyone who knows her at all that this is not a good idea, so she should abort or adopt. Reasons could be things like severe lack of money, poor treatment of existing children, interruption of education or just plain growing up, abusive partner, etc. Why then do most people greet the news of this pregnancy with celebration? Do they not care about the baby to be at all?
Okay, I’ll give it one last try.
Because it’s none of my fucking business. Because in our society, the only person who gets to say if a specific girl or woman has an abortion is her. Because I so strongly support personal choice that I’m willing to see babies born into situations I worry about rather than working to change the law to favor mandatory abortions. Because I’m an optimist, and hope that my fears are wrong, and things will work out, as they worked out for me and my son.
You aren’t in the pit here, so you are lucky I cannot be bothered to report posts like this. I will point out that this is a thread I started, so if you don’t like it you can go away. But of course you really can’t since for some bizarre reason, far too many people who love babies simply cannot leave those of us who don’t alone. People like you, who selfishly insist that your children are more important than anyone and anything, who keep shoving them down our throats, are why many people end up like me. Not wanting to have anything to do with kids.
But wait! I asked a question about it. And what do you do? Try to answer it? Try to find common ground? Of course not. You come in with your insults, accusations, demands and dismissal. Way to try to get those who hate parents like you to come around to your side.
Not that you need to, since parents run this country. Why is it that you are so defensive then?
I didnt manage to have a child till 40+ for various reasons.
I have some experience of what its like to be childless around peers for over a decade in general, most of them are moving towards teenagers now while I have a toddler. There were the implied assumptions that Ive missed out on life, that Im somehow less mature because I havent had a child, that it feels like being a second class citizen at times, feeling excluded, etc etc. ‘You dont know what its like’ and all that
Now not all those might apply to you, as they were my experience. But I would say that parents can be smug gits about these things.
I guess my counterpoint is that childless people can be too and I can remember all the ways I defended myself in ways that just annoyed other parents and really was just me being bitter or trying to make my experience into something superior or some kind of careful ethical position when it was really just how things had worked out.
Maybe this is all just academic interest, but you have posted a lot on this topic, its pretty obviously a hot one for you, and trying to win at the internet is a great way to end up frustrated.
Otara
True, but for the most part, the vast majority of cases, if a woman is visibly pregnant, chances are a baby will be born (whether it’ll be adopted or kept is another thing). Late term medical-abortion is very much a tiny minority of cases. Hence, the decision to continue the pregnancy is the most likely one.
If one is not close to the pregnant woman, then yes, it will be impolite or rude to publicly or even privately tell her that is (in their opinion) a horrible idea that will wreck her life forever. Also, read what WhyNot said. People are optimistic that the pregnancy will, overall, be a net benefit instead of a negative.
OK, then it is probably because people have different views and experiences than you. I have not seen people (other than perhaps the expectant mother, father, and immediate relatives) being completely overjoyed. I’ve seen support and positivism, which someone may misconstruct as joy. It may be that what you see as overjoy is nowhere near overjoy for those who express the emotions. In general, I do not see strangers or non-immediate relatives being “overjoyed” with pregnancy.
I look very young for my age and I didn’t really think about that too much until I got pregnant last year. Once I started showing and people playing the fat vs pregnant game could tell there was probably a baby in there I got lots of concern from well meaning friends and strangers alike. At least a dozen times I was given a sideways glance and asked, “How old are you?” while riding in an elevator or on a bus with people who were obviously wondering if their tax dollars were going to have to pay my medical bills and feed my baby since I looked all of 17. When they found out I was 28 they would smile and congratulate me on the baby but until they determined that I wasn’t making horrible life choices they withheld their well wishes.
It was a little bit different with people I know personally. While there were a few people who reacted with extreme joy at the prospect of my being pregnant there were just as many at the other end of the spectrum who were concerned about the future well being of our child. Both sets of people were obviously reacting not to my baby but to their potential future children or grandchildren. The people who were super excited were the ones who really loved the idea of having a child or grandchild of their own because they love kids and all of the people who reacted negatively were the people who couldn’t stomach the thought of being forced to spend time around a baby for even a few minutes in the future. I had lots of people who were very neutral in their response until they learned that I had no intention of forcing them to touch, hold, smell, or otherwise interact with my child if they didn’t want to, at which point the response became very positive. Most of the reactions I got weren’t really about me at all but instead about their internal desire or lack thereof to have a baby.
The problem is it becomes my fucking business if I am expected to help support that child such as occurs in an extended family and to a lesser expect in any society that has any sort of safety net. I agree that it takes a village to raise a child, but that means the village has a right to express their opionion on whether or not a child should be born and certainly a right to tell a woman making a bad decision, it’s a bad decision that deserves scorn and isolation, not congratulations.
Yes, I know - what I mean by negative influence on society is pretty basic. Teach the kids to be responsible, willing to work for a living, considerate of others, confident, self respecting. We cannot expect that everyone will share our political/religious/social beliefs so getting into that part would open up a huge grey area. As long as someone is not going about causing others harm in the name of their political/religious/social beliefs, I don’t consider whether they are a positive or negative affect on society.
In order to stay on topic and respond to my questions, you must stop right here as everything else you posted is irrelevant to this thread. Nothing I have asked about has anything to do with what happens after the birth.
How in the world do you get something like that from anything I’ve said here?
If this is your best try, you are excused from the need to involve yourself in further discussion. None of what you say above has anything to do with what I’ve asked, and if you are going to try to pretend things like I said anything about mandatory abortions, there is really no point to our continuing.
You missed “you aren’t a real woman” and “what do you mean my child isn’t all important to you”. 
But yeah, any adult female who has not had a child, or isn’t at least actively trying to become pregnant is viewed as anything from deficient to a menace to society.
Oh, any sub set of humanity can be smug gits, including the child free, but in my experience those of us who do not and never want children are forced into that response by those who say those things we listed above. Parents simply cannot leave us alone with our decision and our opinions. I am in no way bitter about my decision to forgo reproduction, yet there are parents that simply will. not. let it go. If I do anything at all to defend my lifestyle, I must be a bitter old hag or whatever. It’s as if the fact that I can have a great life without having had children is a threat to them or something.
I’m not trying to win at anything here. In the pit, it amuses me to poke at smug entitled parents, but I also have a fair amount of curiosity as to how they get to that place. I guess I have trouble believing that otherwise normal intelligent people can simply lose their minds just because someone has become pregnant, no matter what the situation is or what the woman herself thinks about it. I’m beginning to think it is the same thing as the anti-choice folks - the pregnancy is something to be celebrated, protected, etc but the resulting baby is kind of an afterthought. At least as it applies to what sort of life it is going to be born into.
Huh? What happens after the birth is the whole point of pregnancy.
However, that isn’t what I’m asking about. What I want to know is why it is that so many people go nutbar over every pregnancy, no matter what the situation, no matter what the girl/woman herself might think of it. If it is, as you seem to be saying, because it is going to result in a baby and those people are nutbar for babies, why do they not care about what sort of situation that baby is going to be born into?
This has been answered time and time again curlcoat.
Firstly, few people on this board have witnessed the, shall I say, exuberant enthusiasm that you declare occurs when a woman announces a pregnancy. Outside of close family and friends, the most that is generally offered is a tepid congratulations, perhaps accompanied by an enquiry as to whether it might be a boy or a girl and an EDD. I don’t know where you are seeing all these hysterical well-wishers.
Secondly, if a woman announces a pregnancy, it is overwhelmingly likely that she has decided to carry the foetus to term. Telling her that you think it would be better for her to have a termination is not good form.
Thirdly, if you are close enough to the pregnant woman that she confides in you that she is regretting her pregnancy, then you should just supply a sympathetic ear, and maybe some moral support if she decides to offer the baby for adoption. Going on and on about what a bad idea it was for her to get pregnant in the first place is not going to help her one bit. That’s not polite either.
Fourthly, if she shares that she is happy about the pregnancy (but you see a more dismal prognosis) then just remind yourself that you are not clairvoyant and cannot see into the future and what it might hold for this mother and child. It’s pretty rude to mention to a prospective parent that they are likely to be fuck-ups. How many good people have come from less than ideal beginnings? Probably most of us actually.
Now curlcoat…all of these points have been made many times throughout this thread by various posters. Have you not read them?
I think she got that from here:
Now, maybe you’re talking about mandatory adoptions, but that’s not wildly different, concept wise. Either way you are expressing a desire to control other women’s reproductive rights, and you wouldn’t like it if they were trying to control yours.
I still doubt that the majority of women really go ‘nutbar’ or ‘gaga’ (or whatever other unflattering term you want to use) over every single pregnant lady they come across. As many others have said, if you really are regularly seeing this happen, there is a good chance that’s it’s coming from people that actually have mixed emotions about the pregnancy but are only presenting the excited part, either because they don’t know you that well and baring their soul would be inappropriate, or because they know how you feel about kids and they don’t want to open the can of worms that might come with expressing doubts.
She has, but she says they are not related to her question or tangential or misrepresenting the OP or not answering the point of her question, etc.
Look, you don’t see scorn and apathy publicly because in the society we live it is yes, impolite, rude, and a bad idea to berate/insult/go on and on against someone’s personal choices in front of them. You can do it privately to them, but no one else will notice. Hence, you see the positive wishes because the negatives are saved for private.
Again, I think curlcoat’s experience differs, and what she call overjoyed is just “normal reaction” to most other people, and I guess what other people call “overjoy” to her would mean a nuclear explosion of glurginess unlike no other.
[QUOTE=curlcoat]
What I want to know is why it is that so many people go nutbar over every pregnancy, no matter what the situation, no matter what the girl/woman herself might think of it. If it is, as you seem to be saying, because it is going to result in a baby and those people are nutbar for babies, why do they not care about what sort of situation that baby is going to be born into?
[/QUOTE]
They do care, it’s just really impolite to say that you think the pregnancy is a bad idea, and that their baby might have a terrible life. It’s not your life, and it’s not your decision.
I’ve never met a woman who’s gotten pregnant who thinks that pregnancy and children are sunshine and rainbows. What women who announce pregnancy tend to be looking for are support and congratulations, and possibly sympathy, depending on the circumstances and how well you know her.
I’ve never actually seen anyone go nutbar over pregnancy, and I’ve been pregnant several times, but you may know people who do. Anything’s possible.
To everyone - please read my OP before you respond. I am getting really tired of all of these flights of fantasy.
Really? Where?
OK, whether or not you think it is at all common for people to get all excited about a pregnancy that isn’t a good idea is kind of immaterial. The number of people who do that isn’t the basic question.
What is EDD?
AGAIN, neither of these is in play here. The only time woman announcing pregnancy is pertinent is how it affects when and how people find out she is, which doesn’t seem to have much to do with how they react. And again, I am not talking about me or anyone telling her to have an abortion - where do you get that?
This whole discussion would be so much better, and far shorter, if people would quit making up scenarios that have zero to do with what I’ve said. As for polite, see below.
Well, I did and I’m here to tell you that being born to at least one parent that didn’t really want you, into poverty, is not a good way to grow up. And, again, you are making up scenarios.
Have you not read my responses? Yes all of those points have been made and every time they were off topic flights of fantasy. I am beginning to think that when pregnancy/babies are the subject, people cannot use logic.
I’m not talking mandatory anything other than what we already have as laws. AFAIK, minors do not have the legal right to decide if they are going to keep a baby, right? The legal decision is up to the parents? If so, then why do so many of them let their 15 year old daughter make the decision? That’s insane for both the daughter and the baby. Same with women who have proven previously they cannot provide safe and humane care to a child - the law steps in.
In both cases, a goodly section of society thinks its just awful that those girls/women were not allowed to keep their babies, and others will never even stop to think about the wisdom of becoming pregnant to begin with. I don’t believe that all of the support that people give these bad idea pregnancies and decisions to keep babies is just with the intent to try to make things better, I really think that a significant number of people just see BABY and their minds stop.
:rolleyes: For the most part, my friends are well past the baby making stage so I am not talking about anyone I know at all well.
That could be. OTOH, “normal reaction” still seems to me to be the wrong one to some of these pregnancies.
OK, here is that impolite thing again. Let’s try this - if you had a daughter who has just begun college, is doing great and has a good future in front of her and one day she came to you and said “Mom, I’m pregnant…” - would you immediately go into the “oh that’s wonderful, we need to call grandma” thing or would you ask questions about her plans and concerns? If you had a friend who had shared stories with you about how unhappy she is in her marriage and/or all the money problems they are having, and one day you noticed she was putting on weight. She says “well, I’m pregnant…” - what is your immediate response?
Are you really worried about being polite? If so, how does that trump the best interests of the woman and the impending baby?