Bad precedent

[Martini_Enfield]

This thread is, I think, a textbook example of what I modestly call Martini’s Second law of Internet Messageboards: Everything is offensive to someone.

The linked post in the OP- at least in my cultural background- is not offensive and an acceptable personal observation in the context.

Indeed, I’m reminded of this Pub Joke that always gets a laugh with your mates here, but would probably cause most Americans to get the vapours:

Why are Holden Commodores and Ford Falcons “Clitoris Cars”?

Because every cunt’s got one.

There are a few things I see expressed on the boards that I find horribly offensive and, if I were RL dictator of a country, would probably have anyone espousing them arrested and re-educated. But I don’t go around saying people shouldn’t be voicing them on the boards or using “naughty” words or whatever, just because I, personally, don’t like them.

If we were to allow the precedent set by twickster (with whom I do not believe I’ve interacted previously) to stand- and yes, I realise that an apology has been issued - then the mods in other areas could say, for example “I find your support of (say) Sarah Palin offensive. Do not voice these offensive ideas in this forum in future.”

Apparently, this messageboard is supposed to be full of Smart, Civilised People; a Private Club For Cultured Netizens, if you will. It’s not a Third Form Common Room.

The Mod Warnings being dished out here have left me flabbergasted, I must say. They really do appear to be issued Pour L’encouragement des l’autres- “There will be no disagreement! The [del]beatings[/del] warnings will continue until morale improves! Windmills do not work that way!”

It’s still (just) repairable- rescind the warnings, apologise for over-reacting, ask people nicely not to make a song and dance about the apologies, move on. But coming in with mod-phasers set to “Smackdown” isn’t going to encourage people to communicate in an adult and civilised way about the very real issues that face the board.

Seriously, do you want people to leave? I’m certainly noticing a smaller pool of “regular” posters and only a few new “regular” names. That’s not to say the boards are circling the drain or anything (people have been saying that for years and here we still are), but there’s no denying this place is a lot less “fun” than it used to be and taking the “If you don’t like it, be sure not to get ass-prints on our door when you leave” approach certainly isn’t the way to fix that.

[Guinastasia]

@tomndebb

Are you going to follow up with a call for the whole staff to don sackcloth and ashes and beg forgiveness?

Pfft!!! That is sooooo last season!!! Don’t you know that hair shirts are all the rage now?
Note: this is meant as a light-hearted joke. NOT to make fun of anyone. Of course, I would imagine that SOMEONE will take offense.

[eleanorigby]

@tomndebb

No, I do not see how it reflects on all dopers, since the specific statement was in regard to the small group of chronic complainers acting in concert. Nothing I have posted, here, can be reasonably read to mean that all posters are included in my comments.

Huh? If you weren’t making a general remark, then to whom were your remarks re “the hive mind” addressed? You named no one. I have posted in this thread, mildly criticizing and protesting the overreaction of some mods. Whether or not you intended to include me in your “hive mind” comment, I considered myself so included–because your remarks did not otherwise specify. I said “Dopers” because IMO, any Doper who came in here and posted would also then be included in your hypothetical “hive”. Who the hell IS the hive? I don’t see chronic complainers. True, I lack your overall perspective and can’t remember even the simplest of Doper monikers (I tend to reply to content in posts, not react to the name of the person who posted. I think I am in the minority here).

The problem, there, is that we are a small group, as you note, which means that we wind up taking shit from a much larger group. If we were to back off, there is no indication that the complainers will behave any more civilly unless they come under pressure from their peers to dial it back, so taking the high road begins to look to some staffers like painting targets on their foreheads.

How to say this? Um, baloney. Most people and most Dopers turn the other cheek and forgive/forget. It’s when umbrage is taken by several mods all in the same thread that people get shirty and threads become shitty.

Seeing some actual support from the TM would go a way toward getting notion that we are only here for the abuse out of the way.

I am truly sorry you see your role in this way. Perhaps you have been too long at it. (no snark).

I want to see both sides ratchet back the hostility, but any call that only one side is responsible for that hostility will do nothing to encourage that side to do so.

Hmm. A clue phone is in order here: there will always be a segment that is disgruntled. There will always be a segment that is defensive and hyper-critical. There will always be a segment who just wants to land zingers. You are dealing with a cross section of the public. This is just par for the course.

Things have NOT been the same at all since Ed messed about with the Pit. That’s my take on things. How long has it been now? A year? The irony is that the reason people are still prickly around here is that they cared so much about this place and felt that arbitrary, high handed and (in the end) useless changes were made. This still rankles for some. For others, they like to stir shit. I’m sure I don’t know who is who, but I think you are assuming that both groups are one and the same, and I doubt that.

I do not expect any poster to jump in and defend any Mod on any given topic. On the other hand, when the complainers begin dragging up unrelated incidents and ancient history in every challenge thread, it would be nice to see a few posters telling them to stop the hijack, (because you know darned well that if a staff member tells them to stay on topic, there will immediately be cries of "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. ").

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I realize this is not addressed to me. In essentials, I agree with you. But I find it disingenuous that you, of all people, who have denied making any broad remark re the Dope in general should now (again) make another blanket statement and not expect it to be taken up. Can you not see how responding in these vague ways just clouds the issues?

It’s not violence in the system that is at issue here–it is misunderstanding, mistrust and a desire to gain the upper hand. Both “sides” are guilty–although I have to agree with the other poster who said there really isn’t a Doper “side” to this.

I like the Dope. I care about it. I probably need to get a life. I would no more take my marbles and go home in high dudgeon than I would walk naked down the street. Why? Because people who do so look silly and slightly hysterical in print. That, and my absence would not be noted for even a day. I understand my position in the scheme of things here quite well. But perhaps next time a mod “mods” in the heat of the moment, 3 other mods don’t need to man the barricades and cause collateral damage. Just a thought.

[Czarcasm]

@eleanorigby

It’s not violence in the system that is at issue here–it is misunderstanding, mistrust and a desire to gain the upper hand. Both “sides” are guilty–although I have to agree with the other poster who said there really isn’t a Doper “side” to this.

The “violence in the system” statement was a reference to a scene in Monty Python And The Holy Grail(warning: video)

[eleanorigby]

@Czarcasm

The “violence in the system” statement was a reference to a scene in Monty Python And The Holy Grail(warning: video)

O ferfuckssake. I know the reference and could probably quote it better than you. I think I’m done here. There is no way I’m going to get sucked into tangentials when my point is being (deliberately I’d say, at this point) misunderstood. I know I communicate well. If it’s not clear to you–tell me that. Don’t assume I am ignorant of a pop culture reference that is most likely older than you are.

I think I understand the OP’s and Sleeps’ and Fenris’ frustration much better now. Thank you for that. I’ve said my piece. Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow.

[tomndebb]

@eleanorigby

Huh? If you weren’t making a general remark, the to whom were your remarks re “the hive mind” addressed? You named no one.

Well, did you actually read what I posted?

@tomndebb

Look over this thread. Several posts by staff addressing specific issues have resulted in posters replying, not to the staff member’s actual remarks, but to all the staff with more condemnation. If every member of the staff is going to be lumped in as “staff” and treated with the same contempt for the individual actions of other members of the staff, how long do you figure it will be before “the staff” begins to look at the “complainers” as a hive mind attack group?

My observation was in the context of what would provisionally happen in the dynamics between the staff and a previously remarked upon, but not individually identified, group of “complainers” who show up in every one of these threads to lob insults at the staff.

Do you consider yourself to be among those who simply has to post in nearly every thread challenge Mod action? Do you consider yourself to be one who lobs insults regardless of the discussion? Do you believe that you attack staff members for statements they have not actually posted, just because they are staff? I don’t see you that way and I see no reason why you would.

@eleanorigby

How to say this? Um, baloney. Most people and most Dopers turn the other cheek and forgive/forget. It’s when umbrage is taken by several mods all in the same thread that people get shirty and threads become shitty.

You need to have read more of these threads. A very large percentage of these threads–typically involving the same posters–have “developed” as Pit Lite threads long before any Mod could even read them, much less post to them. It does not happen in every single thread, but it happens often enough to be noticeable to the targets.

@eleanorigby

I am truly sorry you see your role in this way. Perhaps you have been too long at it. (no snark).

It was an observation about some staff members. I generally consider the source when reading insults and criticism, considering well intentioned posts and ignoring attempts to bait me.
Different staffers have been subjected to different levels of abuse and have different reactions.

[Czarcasm]

@eleanorigby

O ferfuckssake. I know the reference and could probably quote it better than you. I think I’m done here. There is no way I’m going to get sucked into tangentials when my point is being (deliberately I’d say, at this point) misunderstood. I know I communicate well. If it’s not clear to you–tell me that. Don’t assume I am ignorant of a pop culture reference that is most likely older than you are.

I think I understand the OP’s and Sleeps’ and Fenris’ frustration much better now. Thank you for that. I’ve said my piece. Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow.

1. I had no idea if you knew the reference or not, and I was just trying to be helpful.
2. I am older than all three references(including your name).

[RedFury]

Keeping it short. Mods in this thread need a free calling card to a clue-phone. Because it’s been quite sometime I’ve seen so many of them running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Here’s a couple of free tips*

1-A commercial MB has no choice but to cater to its customers for content. Amazingly enough, without same there would be NO SDMB.

2-Tom, you – and I and the rest of us – are really nobodies. Meaning that regardless of that oh-so-important mod tag under your user name, you are just more wasted pixels on the never-ending intertubes “debates” – where the fuck do you think they lead and/or influence? US elections? Please. That said, seriously, do you honestly feel any of your passive/aggressive arguments for modding the SDMB are swaying a significant majority of members to your “side”? Please. As Forrest was fond of saying “stupid is, as stupid does.” And there’s plenty of stupid modding right here in this thread.

But hey! Don’t let me deter you on your Crusade in favor of “All That Is Good About The SDMB and its mods and capricious rules.”

Just don’t come crying to me when you’ve finally managed to shoo off the majority of contributing members. STM you are well on your way.

Cheers.

*Making up for my missed X-mas spirit this year.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

Gah! Stop poisoning the well! This isn’t helping anything!

[Ed_Zotti]

It’s time to bring some closure to this. To review, we (that is, the SDMB staff) screwed up. Specifically:

1. A poster called an off-board individual a cunt in post #41 on 3-29 in the thread in question. We issued a mod note in post #45 on 3-30.

This was a mistake. Although we don’t encourage posters to direct vulgarities at off-board individuals, we’ve never had a rule against it. We have a rule against hateful material, and would likely take exception to terms such as nigger, kike, etc. Cunt isn’t usually thought of as falling into that category. The only rule we have regarding this term is that it can’t be directed at another poster in the Pit. Outside the Pit, you can’t insult other posters, period.

2. The poster called the off-board individual a cunt again in post #193 on 4-9. We subsequently issued a warning. When asked about this, we said the warning had been issued because the poster had disobeyed a moderator’s instructions.

This was also a mistake. Our rules state, “You agree to abide by the wishes of the board moderators in interpreting and enforcing these rules. Refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges.” No rule had been broken, and there was little evidence of refusal to cooperate. The second instance of cunt was nine days and 148 posts after the issuance of the mod note. There was minimal discussion of the note during the intervening time, none of it by the poster in question. He didn’t appear to be openly defying the mod note; the simplest explanation is he never saw it.

Let me be clear: we don’t allow open defiance of mod rulings, and had the poster been defiant, the warning would have been proper, even if the original ruling were ill-considered. But that wasn’t the case here. We just messed up. The warning accordingly has been rescinded, as you see. Our apologies for the confusion.

A couple final points. First, please don’t assume that, because some time elapses between a complaint and our response, that we are stonewalling, ignoring you, circling the wagons, or anything of that nature. Remember that the staff is mostly volunteers in widely scattered locations. We’re not all online at the same time; we communicate via e-mail. Most decisions are arrived at collegially; the process is inherently slow. Please be patient.

Second, if I may make a practical observation, if you express yourself in a civil manner, you are far more likely to get a civil response.

Since this matter has been thoroughly dissected, I’m going to close this thread in a few minutes.

[padabe]

Tom, I appreciate your candor, but letting the board go to pot for the benefit of a few hecklers is insanity. I’m not sure how many you would place in this group, and I’m not going to ask. But I would say, if it’s something on the order of a half-dozen, you have the means to fix the problem at your disposal. And possibly there are some things you haven’t tried yet–can you ban people from ATMB?

Frankly, I don’t think this would work, because I don’t believe the problem lies with a handful of complainers. Perhaps a couple are providing a disproportionate amount of smoke and noise, but really, man, that’s something you’re going to have to resign yourself to–as someone pointed out upthread, you’re dealing with the general public.

I sincerely hope the mods make an attempt to ratchet down the pressure. Stop closing threads, stop blowing the mod whistle every time someone looks at someone else funny, for the love of Christ, stop the other mods from calling certain posters troublemakers (by name or in aggregate). It’s fine to think that, but saying it usually doesn’t help.

Stop refereeing pissing matches, too. If two members who’ve been here for ages and have 40K posts between them get into it in GD, try harder to avoid intervening for the low-stakes indiscretions. Because as things stand, it seems the contest becomes “let’s see who gets modded first.” It’s not the end of the world if someone gets called a shithead.

As things stand, people expect moderator intervention for the slightest damned things. Borderline offenses pop up, and you KNOW there’s going to be a debate over this and that element for which there are no specific provisions in the rules, thrashing and rethrashing, things carved in stone, and then crossed out again.

Let the herd ask for more moderation. Chalk a lot more of the complaints and reports up as squeaky wheels. Your job, I’d say, is to make sure the wheels don’t fall off entirely. I’m not going to make rosy predictions about how posters will begin to moderate each other in response. But I don’t see an alternative, and like I said, this place is really beginning to sour.

[RedFury]

Ed,

Good post. And that’s the last I say on this issue.And not just because you’re closing the thread.

By and large I am uninterested in how the board is run. It’s just when I read sorry spectacles as this thread that I feel I should pipe up.

Cheers.

[Ed_Zotti]

On that positive note, we’ll conclude this thread, and hope any incipient sourness soon dissipates. Good night to all.