Balance...Syrian war verse US invasion of Iraq

Great Debates
1

I was reading this article on CNN about a little girl killed in Aleppo by either Russian planes or Syrians flying and using Russian equipment. I decided to take a look in GD to see the thread about stuff happening there and, much to my shock (heavy irony here), there isn’t one. In fact, there isn’t one on the main page about ‘Syria’ or ‘Aleppo’, and the only one about ‘Russia’ seems to be one on cyber security hacking that is dropping out because of the general consensus that ‘everybody does it’ and ‘the US is worse’.

Rather than start a futile thread on what 'dopers think about what’s going on in Syria (the obvious conclusion based on the lack of threads is…they don’t), what they think the US and everybody not Syria and Russia could or should do, I figured I’d ask a different question…why this dual standard? I mean, all through the Iraqi invasion there were myriad threads about US deprivations in Iraq. Every time there was a US mistake or US attack that caused casualties there were threads…hell, there were threads at just the hint that the US MIGHT have fucked up and killed innocent civilians.

Here we have two nation states who are deliberately targeting civilians. There isn’t a gray area here, they have used bunker buster bombs on hospitals, not trying to hit ‘terrorists’ who were using a hospital for cover but going after, in a systematic way, all of the hospitals. They use cluster munitions in civilian areas and barrel bombs that deliberately target civilians, they have attacked aid convoys that are clearly marked. Yet, there just doesn’t seem to be the same level of outrage or even interest. Hell, I’m not even seeing much of an uproar about some of the stuff Russia and Syria has been getting up to lately on non-SDMB sources…certainly nothing like the furor week in and week out of what the US did in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Why? I mean, just from a balance perspective, why does there seem so little international interest when it’s not the US doing something heinous? Let’s say, since I know it will come up, that what the US did was every bit as bad and heinous as what Russia and Syria are doing…hell, lets say we did worse, since I’m sure many 'dopers feel this is true. Ok, the US is worse. But why is this not worthy of debate, why is there such a seeming lack of interest in this or a lack of international outrage? Is it just burn out…what’s happening in Syria has been going on for years, and folks are just numb to it? They never did seem to get numb to the US, as when we were active in Iraq and Afghanistan there weren’t many weeks I recall where it wasn’t being talked about here or elsewhere, but maybe my memories are faulty.

I did a couple of quick searches, just in GD on ‘Syria’ verse ‘Iraq’…in the last 6 months. Even today, threads with the word ‘Iraq’ has more hits (73) than ‘Syria’ (35)…and many of the 35 were only peripherally about Syria and the war, while many of the Iraq ones were still re-fighting the US invasion. There is no contest if you look over the period of the Syrian civil war verse the time the US was in Iraq…5 years verse 7 depending on how you count things. It’s orders of magnitude difference. Why?

2

I concur … a few stray USA bullets hit a hospital and everyone screams foul … Syria is targeting hospitals with bombs everyday and no one says a word.

The American media seems completely centered on describing just how awful The Donald is, so it’s important that Obama be raised above in godlike fashion. Anything to do with the administrations shortcomings has been pushed off the agenda. I’m heartbroken about what’s happening in Syria right now, and there’s many many reasons why this is happening. So in small part, Obama drew a line that Bashar al-Assad must go. Hindsight is 20/20 and maybe this was unwise. Maybe it’s time to cut a deal with the Russians and stop the killing?

Phaw … even the slightest criticism of liberal policies is a good way to get torched on these boards …

3

I’d chalk it up to two factors; a certain collateral-damage fatigue whereby the public just doesn’t care too much about hearing about civilians being killed, and also this odd double standard whereby if the United States kills civilians, it’s a global scandal, but if Russia or Syria kills civilians it’s cool or at least not noteworthy, because the United States should be held to a higher standard, or some logic of that sort.

4

Ooh, non-sequitor and well poisoning. Good job!

5

Thank you, even the slightest criticism …

Perhaps you have a different answer to this question posed by the OP?

6

It’s far less clever than you think to preemptively declare that any criticism of you is just butthurt liberals being butthurt.

An American board pays more attention to an American war than a Syrian war. Zero surprise.

7

Presumably this goes for news sources as well. So, your contention is it’s perception…I, the OP, only see a disparity because I only read US (and British) news sources and visit US message boards such as this, but the reality is that non-US message boards and news sources are actually reporting the war in Syria and the rather heinous things the Syrians and Russians are doing at about the same level and this message board (US based) and US news did the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts when the US was heavily involved in both?

8

It’s hard to say, I also mostly visit US-centric boards. I’d guess that even in foreign media the US plays an oversized role because of our oversized role in world affairs.

I think that US media will report on US led wars more than non-US led wars. 100% neutral media will report on US led wars more than non-US led wars, but to a lesser extent. And that media that is closely tied to the conflict zone will report more on the local war than a US led war. That’s a hunch though, and I don’t have data to back it up.

9

It’s a bit much to expect Dopers to criticize American enemies for free when the corporate media gets paid to do it. Just be patient, Hillary is gonna win and she probably still wants to start WWIII over it.

10

Fair enough, and seems like it’s a credible theory. Perhaps the reality is just that when the US does something it’s always news, while when other countries do similar things it’s not as much. It’s a bit sad that you see multiple articles in the news about Trump et al, yet you see very little about Syria and what the Russians are up to…and a similar trend here on this board (and on a few others I follow).

11

I’d only be worried about WWIII if there was any chance Trump would get elected. Of course, the fact we are bringing the US presidential election into this thread sort of makes the point…

(Also, I’m unsure Russia is an American enemy…even Syria isn’t really an enemy, per se, though Assad and his regime are definitely into extreme unfriending territory)

12

I try to catch BBC World News and the DW … these sources do report heavily on the war in Syria and that’s what got me interested in the OP … I do see a lack of in depth reporting from American sources.

The events in Egypt during their revolution was hardly an American War, but I didn’t have to seek out European news sources to get information. I think the OP is on to something here, the American media is shy around these events in Syria. It’s a though they’re running scared of something …

13

Well, the news cycle is the news cycle. And outrage meters were pegged a long time ago. To me, the interesting thing is that there now appears to be zero common ground in US-Russia relations. Kerry pulled out of Syria talks yesterday and Putin suspended the plutonium program nearly simultaneously, putting to rest the final vestiges of the US-Russia ‘reset’.

I think the Doomsday clock just moved a minute closer to midnight.

14

Maybe because 1) there’s no debate, everyone agrees this is heinous, and/or 2) people are not surprised that other countries like Russia and Syria do heinous things (but expect the US to be better).

15

I’m more concerned about the possibility that Russia has sent their newest S-300VM anti-air missile system to Syria, especially where they are saying it’s going to be deployed. That has a pucker factor of about 8 on a 1-10 scale, since the potential for a major fuckup will be in similar hands as those who shot down Malaysia Flight 17, but this time it would be a US or coalition plane with gods know what results (since it would be US or coalition, instead of some Malaysian civilian jet when most folks seemingly don’t care).

16

Sure, I get that…and I even agree, the US SHOULD do better and be better than either Russia or Syria. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect, or perhaps a dual standards wrt when the US fucks up and when a country like Russia deliberately targets civilians, and certainly a vast disparity between simply talking about this stuff and debating it. While there isn’t much of a debate, at least as far as I know, that Syria and Russia are doing heinous things, there should be on what could or should be done…even if it’s just a lot of us talking out of our ass about unrealistic shit that isn’t possible.

Or, maybe not. Maybe there just isn’t anything to do but watch relatively silently as this train crash continues to happen. And happen. And happen. With no end in sight.

17

Maybe it’s post imperial age Western guilt. But I see hand-wringing when we don’t intervene and I see hand-wringing when we do.

18

A bit off topic but one of the few things that irritated me with W was his provocation of the Russians with the implementation of missile defense near their border. Russia could have been made into an ally. Instead we act in a way that frightens them and makes them doubt our intentions.

Our politicians don’t take seriously Russian concerns. They lost a TON of people in WWII. They are surrounded by competitors. They don’t have oceans and overwhelming military and industrial might as protection.

What does the US gain from the destabilization of the middle east? Is this just a modern day version of divide and conquer? For what purpose?

19

I think several people have good points.

Whenever “outrage news” falls off, despite outrageousness continuing, there are common reasons for it, and only rarely is it due to reporting bias.

Possibilities include (some as mentioned)

  • other crap going on which is NEWLY outrageous, whereas Russia bombing hospitals is not.

  • We’re approaching the Presidential election, and that drowns almost EVERYTHING out.

  • When the US does something wrong, being Americans using a primarily American forum, we sense that participating might have some effect; protesting about Putin’s behavior here will certainly accomplish next to nothing, except where we are chastising the fools who praise Putin for not being Obama.

  • We haven’t taken our Outrage Vitamins this week.

  • People are just as outraged, but people who are sensitive about criticisms of America, take outrage against America harder than they do when it’s against other nations.

  • when someone who brags about being wonderfully caring does something horrendous, it IS more outrageous than when someone like Putin, who takes pride in being vicious, does the same thing.

20

Cold War 2.0 has been on for awhile now. Non-state actors and client states are lining up for proxy wars just like the good old days. The problem is American power is declining and Russia isn’t cowed by its threats and is just daring them to do anything. Has there ever been a war where two airforces bomb the other side’s allied ground forces accidentally on purpose but don’t attack each other? There was also that Kafkaesque story from awhile back where two U.S. backed rebel groups were fighting each other.

I don’t think Trump would act against Russian interests. Then again, he takes both sides of every issue, so who knows. Hillary wanted to put in a no fly zone and presumably shoot down Russian planes. I bring up Hillary because I’m guessing you have a problem with Obama’s weak response to Russian expansion.

If you just want to focus on the human tragedy, then yeah, shit is fucked. Humans are monkeys that figured out how to wear pants. I don’t see a lot of threads about Mexican cartels shooting down police helicopters with RPGs or ambushing army convoys. I think I remember one or two Darfur threads back in the day when it first started, but after awhile there’s not much of a point unless something changes.