Batasuna

Great Debates
1

No link, but it was reported on Euronews this morning that the Spanish government is threatening to revoke the Basque region’s autonomous status if its local government does not crack down on Batasuna, the party viewed as the political wing of ETA.

Batasuna has already been made illegal by the Spanish government and independent candidates who are seen as “stealth” Batasuna candidates have been banned from running as well (this is all coming off the top of my head so I may have some of the details slightly incorrect).

I am not an ETA supporter, but I think the Spanish government’s policies in this regard are horribly repressive as well as being counterproductive and will only lead to increased support for ETA and increased terrorism. If you take away people’s right to express themselves through the democratic process, what means does that leave them with?

I’m not sure how many people here (Sailor?) follow Spanish politics at all - does anybody else have a view on this?

2

I am no expert in Spanish politics by any means, much less the Basque problem, but I believe you have misunderstood the news, or the report is in error, and the central government is not “threatening to revoke the Basque’s region’s autonomous status” and the reason they are not doing it is because they cannot do it even if they wanted to, which I do not believe is even the case. The autonomous regions of Spain derive from the constitution and the central government has zero power to unilaterally suspend their autonomy. You might want to cofirm your information from a reliable source.

>> I am not an ETA supporter, but I think the Spanish government’s policies in this regard are horribly repressive

Well, you better tell us what you think those policies are because the only one you mentioned is not true. I believe you are not well informed of the situation. What other policies do you disagree with?

Batasuna is the political arm of the terrorist ETA and they are considered a terrorist group by the Spanish, European and US governments. The central government went through a long judicial process to have them outlawed, it’s not like they are acting with disregard to the law. They have been proven to be part of the terrorist group ETA, they designate the targets of the terrorists, they provide them with information and money.

It is not so much a situation of the terrorists killing outsiders as a situation of civil confrontation within the Basque country. Thousands of common Basques (plumbers, janitors, news reporters, university professors, small business owners, etc) live in terror because they have been threatened by ETA and they have been given bodyguards by the government. The Basque police are the ones after the terrorists and the Basque police are the ones being killed by the terrorists. Basque reporters and university professors have been killed by ETA for daring to speak up against the terrorists. Basque council members elected for the local city councils have been killed by ETA for speaking up against the terrorists. They have also killed people in the neighboring province of Navarra which was never part of the historical basque country but which the terrorists claim as part of a “Greater Basque Country”. They recently killed an elected local councilman there. They also claim the Basque provinces in Southern France.

ETA has killed more than 800 people and it is a constant drip which makes people live in terror not knowing who will be next. The terrorists extort money from Basque businesses and they use it to support their terrorist activities. The everyday situation is much worse than anything the USA can imagine and yet it is being dealt with with full observance of the law. No rights to due process have been curtailed. Terrorists, when they are caught, enjoy full rights to due process and the protection of the law. These days a couple of them are being judged for planting a bomb which killed about 20 people and the trial is public and they are enjoying all the protection of the rule of law. The same guys are also accused of planting another bomb which killed about 15 people. They will kill anyone who disagrees with them, including their own people. Several members of ETA have been killed by ETA themselves for changing their minds about the terrorist tactics. Once you join ETA you are it for life. Literally. No other way out.

In light of the situation I believe the Spanish government is showing extreme restraint and I believe they are doing the right thing. No civil rights have been suspended, no special powers have been granted the government. Some years ago, the socialist government then in power, was exposed as having resorted to illegal means to fight ETA and, besides the judicial actions started against them, they were punished in the following elections by the Spanish people and the conservatives, now in power, won the elections due in great part to this scandal being exposed. The Spanish people do not believe it is a good thing to grant the government extraordinary powers to deal with the situation like the American public has done. In the USA today Batasuna would not enjoy half the freedom and legal guarantees they have in Spain. From all that I gather the Spanish and the Basque people are dealing with the terrorist problem with a calmness and a respect for the rule of law which is admirable and which should serve as an example for other countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3008509.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2857437.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2225094.stm

3

No, they’re correct that it was historically significantly Basque. It’s just that it is less so now than it once was ( compare Kosovo, perhaps ). But as it happens I believe the northwest part of Navarre still has a sizeable Basque presense and Batasuna regularly racked up some votes from that particular area ( where they controlled at least a few town councils ). It’s just that the great majority of the population in Navarre wanted nothing to do with them.

  • Tamerlane
4

By the way, I agree that it is a problem that the separtists are being denied an electoral vote - That way always leads to increased tension. Nonetheless, if Batasuna truly was so deeply intertwined with the ETA as to be having party leaders directing terrorist attacks ( and I haven’t studied this issue in depth, so I won’t comment on the reality of that ), I’m not sure the Spanish government ( and courts ) had a lot of choice.

But I would like to see some compromise that allowed a legitimate political voice to Basque separtism. Not being super well-informed on Spanish politics, I unfortunately wouldn’t know where to start to address that issue.

  • Tamerlane
5

Navarra might have had some small Basque population but in all of history it was never part of the Basque country. Never.

I hope the following is correct : Navarre in the middle ages was a separate Kingdom (and I believe part of Southern France for a while). It was incorporated by Ferdinand, King of Aragon in 1512 to his Kingdom which 200 years later merged with Castile.

Navarre was never politically united with the Basque country after or before 1512 AFAIK. In any case, ETA’s claim to Navarre lacks any basis and, even if it did have any valid basis, terrorism is not the way to support it. Navarre today is a separate autonomous region and they want nothing to do with ETA or with its objectives.

6

No, separatists are allowed as much representation as they can get. It is terrorists who are being denied. In Spain it is perfectly legal for a political party to be separatist. Batasuna was not outlawed for being separatist, it was outlawed for very directly supporting terrorist acts. And it was not unilaterally outlawed by the executive branch of the government but rather after a full judicial process with all legal guarantees.

7

No, Navarre and Pamplona were united into a common crown ( Kingdom of Pamplona, 852 ) and included the modern Basque country. Later became kingdom of Navarre. You can see it here: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1000.htm

Gradually it gave ground to Castille, which by 1332 at the latest controlled what is now Basque Country ( this was a very protracted affair ). See it progressively here: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1200.htm

and here: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm

Meanwhile ‘Lower Navarre’ went to France and ‘Upper Navarre’ to Aragon ( in personal union with Castille ) in 1512, as you stated.

A stretch? Good lord, yes. But it does have some historicity to it, however distant. Culturally, ‘Upper Navarre’ ( modern province of Navarre ) always had a Basque presense. It just has declined a bit over time.

  • Tamerlane
8

That’s fine and no argument ( right at the moment :wink: ) from me. However are there any popular non-Batasuna separtist parties now active? Parties that are acceptable alternatives to Batasuna for the Basque separtists?

If not, no matter how correct the Spanish courts were, you’re going to have tension. I’m not saying Spain was wrong - Just that inevitable result of outlawing a semi-popular nationalistic and ethnic political party ( now matter how repugnant they may or may not be ), is going to be ratcheted-up the tension.

I hope a new party, semi-clean ( probably can’t be squeaky clean ) of taint arises soon, to meet that need, is all.

Never said anything to the contrary, that I noticed :).

  • Tamerlane
9

Tamerlane,

I did not know that
[/Johnny Carson]

I did find some more maps online which show the Kingdom of Navarre extending farther west than I had thought although not as large as the map you linked to. I had incorrectly assumed Navarra was always pretty much what it is today and it seems I was wrong.

10

>> However are there any popular non-Batasuna separtist parties now active? Parties that are acceptable alternatives to Batasuna for the Basque separtists?

I am really not qualified to say what parties exist and what they represent. I would have to do a lot of homework before saying anything reliable. i get the impression there is or are such alternatives. parties which are not directly connected to the terrorists but which have nevertheless not ncondemned it outright because the situation as it is favors them politically.

>> If not, no matter how correct the Spanish courts were, you’re going to have tension. I’m not saying Spain was wrong - Just that inevitable result of outlawing a semi-popular nationalistic and ethnic political party ( now matter how repugnant they may or may not be ), is going to be ratcheted-up the tension.

No doubt about it. I do not think there is a solution just like I don’t see one for the Middle East. Unfortunately it seems humans are stupid enough that we sometimes need a devastating or exterminating war to resolve what should be resolved with some goodwill. Only after the war is over do we realise that. Since there is no chance of a war to resolve the basque issue i just can’t see it being resolved any time soon.

I think a great part of the problem is the younger generations who are the ones supporting terrorism and radical solutions. As they get older and calm down new generations have taken over. It is very difficult to counter this.

I cannot see anything which would resolve this conflict. It will probably go on for a long time.

11

Some links:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batasuna
http://www.mir.es/oris/infoeta/ing/p9b-eng.htm
http://www.mir.es/oris/infoeta/ing/p67-eng.htm

In Spanish:
http://www.el-mundo.es/eta/lucha.html
http://www.el-mundo.es/cronica/2002/347/1023693099.html
http://www.belt.es/noticias/2002/02_mayo/01_03/03_detencion.htm
http://www.terra.es/actualidad/terrorismo/historial/190301-1.htm
http://80.81.104.134/2002-08-02/nacional/nacional1.htm

The summary of this news link dated 17 JUN 2003 is that two terrorists are being judged for planting a bomb which killed 12 people 17 years ago (they were recently extradited from France). The accused have said they will not participate in their trial (presumably they do not recognise the court’s jurisdiction) and asked to be excused, which they were. The trial is open to the media and being reported.

I believe one or both of the accused is also charged with planting the bomb in a department store which killed 21 people and maimed many more

12

I am no expert in Spanish politics or laws either, but it is not clear to me whether you are completely right on this point. For a number of years, the idea of suspending the autonomy in the Basque country has surfaced sporadically, pointing toArticle 155 [link in Spanish] of the Spanish Constitution, as legal justification. In short, this article says that if the government of an Autonomous Community “does not observe the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws”, or “acts in a way that seriously affects the interests of Spain”, the Spanish government, previous approval by the Senate, can adopt “the necessary measures to force the Autonomous Community to observe those laws, or to protect those interests”. I simply don’t know if the current situation would legally justify trying to follow this route. [As should be painfully obvious, I am neither a lawyer nor a translator].

The current crisis started when the Spanish Supreme Court ordered the dissolution of the parliamentary group Sozialista Abertzaleak, considered the sucessor of Batasuna, and the Basque Parliament refused to follow that order.

As for the claim in the OP, that the Spanish government is threatening to revoke the Basque Country autonomous status, so far I haven’t heard that. After a quick search, I found that Jaime Mayor Oreja, the *former * Minister of Interior and current president of the Popular Party parliamentary group in the Basque Parliament, gave an interview [link in Spanish] yesterday to Radio Euskadi, where he said that if the challenges continue “it is obvious that at some point that famous article in the Constitution may be applied” [did I mention that I am not a translator?]. Perhaps that interview is the origin of the reports you heard.

13

I found that article 155 of the Spanish Constitution:

It pretty much says the central government can use force to make the regional government stop breaking the law and I do not think there is anything wrong with that. Similarly, in tha US, the Feds will send the National Guard to enforce the law if a State Governor refuses to do so. The Basque Government is already in breach as they refuse to enforce the ruling of the Supreme Court and yet there has been no talk yet of invoking that article.

IMHO, the central government already has more than sufficient legal grounds to do so but is wisely trying to not escalate the situation.

Mayor Oreja (BTW, funny name there: bigger ear) is not in any position to invoke that law and all his declarations mean is that his opinion is the refusal of the Basque government to comply with the law is “taking us all down a path to disaster” where that article may have to be invoked. Which is quite true.

Some links from Amnesty International about this topic:
Amnesty International Report 2003 entry for Spain
Amnesty International demands halt to ETA killings of political representatives
The lethal cost of freedom of expression in the Basque Country

14

Oh, I forgot my main point which is that the article does not grant the Central government the authority to suspend the autonomy but only to enforce the laws. The Central government, Authorised by the legislative, may “adopt the means necessary in order to oblige the latter forcibly to meet said obligations”. It cannot just say “no more autonomy”.

15

Thanks for the link, sailor. Again, I am not qualified to discuss the implications of that article, but Spanish politicians and newspapers are talking as if that article allowed the government to eventually say “no more autonomy”. For instance, the regional leader of the (left-wing) IU-EB, Javier Madrazo, declared to have information that the Popular Party is considering “suspending the autonomy or the activities of the Basque Parliament”, by applying article 155. The Spanish governement denied those accusations, although not on legal grounds. When reporting these news, the (right-wing) newspaper, La Razon (see also here)
says that “article 155 makes reference to the dissolution of the autonomy”. Perhaps, the last sentence of the first part of article 155: “adopt the means necessary…to protect the above-mentioned general interest.” is what could be interpreted as allowing the suspension of autonomy.

Going back to the OP, the current Spanish Minister of Interior just warned that the attitude of the Basque Parliament carries “very serious consequences”. When explicitly asked if he was hinting at the possibility of suspending the autonomy, he reiterated that there are “very serious consequences” for not following the law.

I don’t know how this is going to end; I would imagine that the Basque Parliament will eventually give in, and dissolve Sozialista Abertzaleak. At any rate, I don’t think that the Spanish government has any intention to suspend the Basque autonomy (granting for the sake of the argument that there is actually a legal way). That would open a very big can of worms.

16

I know several activists for Catalan separatism (the people of Catalonia were just as repressed by Franco as the Basque) and they generally assume that the growth of the European Union will lead to greater breathing space for the three “occupied” parts of Spain (Galicia, the Basque country, and Catalunya). As Spain’s national government becomes weaker and Brussels and Strasbourg stronger, they look to EU institutions to step in and give more attention to minorities.

UnuMondo

17

Unumondo, my impression differs radically. Let’s start with the fact that “activists for Catalan separatism” are in no way representative of the majority of the Catalan population and are going to give you a very distorted view of things. Separatism in Galicia is pretty much non-existant. In Catalonia it is a small sector and definitely not violent or radical. So it is only in the Basque country where violence and radicalism is a problem of any entity.

Then, the notion that “As Spain’s national government becomes weaker and Brussels and Strasbourg stronger, they look to EU institutions to step in and give more attention to minorities” does not make any sense from where I see it. Spain’s central government is not becoming weaker and with respect to the EU it is the only one. There is zero chance the Basques can have their own representation in the EU and there is zero chance the EU is going to have anything to do with the internal distribution of government power in Spain. The Basques, whether they like it or not, are one more autonomous region in a European country and the EU is not going to treat them any differently. If the EU were to get involved in any way which was in opposition the Spain’s central government it would be a very bad sign. Spain would not accept that and other countries would feel they might be next. It is not going to happen. The Eu is a union of countries and they are not going to get involved in supporting any separatist movements, much less when they are supported by terrorism.

In my view the Basque problem is caused much more by perception than by reality and so, what needs to be changed is not really objective factors but perceptions and attitudes. This is very difficult to do due to a number of factors which include perceived injustices, pigheadedness and politicians who profit from the situation. And then you have a terrorist group which purports to be fighting for political ends but which is also a mafia who collects millions in extortions and who would have difficulty in being integrated back into a peaceful society. All these factors and others make peace difficult. My impression is that this is a problem which will not boil over but will be simmering for generations to come.

18

I’ve lived in Spain and am familiar with the realities of life in Catalunya. I am aware that pro-separatists are a minority (if only because Franco’s reign did its best to flood Catalunya with Andalucians to dilute nationalist sentiment). Should they offer a distorted view of things, I would notice.

I wasn’t speaking of changes in Spanish government on behalf of the EU. Rather, I am speaking of EU and CoE initiatives that may weaken anti-minority sentiment among the larger populations of Europe. Both the EU and CoE increasingly fund NGOs and pay to send young people to attend seminars which emphasise the richness of Europe’s panorama of cultures and languages and encourage diversity. This may result in future generations of speakers of castellano seeing the Basque and Catalunyans in a better light. I’ve heard a lot of bigoted things from elderly people in central Spain about the Basque especially. One hopes that the young people of today will grow up not to see them as either uneducated fisherman or greedy bankers but as a positive part of Iberian life.

Incidentally, Galicia does have a separatist movement. I studied under a professor of politics who was from Galicia and who spoke occasionally of concerts and festivals organised to promote Galician solidarity.

UnuMondo

19

Sorry I couldn’t come back to this earlier. I’m glad to hear the report I saw was exaggerated.

sailor, a couple comments:

Assuming this is all true (and I’m not arguing that it isn’t, but in view of the similar - and false - allegations that have been made about Sinn Féin, I admit I’m inclined to a degree of scepticism), outlawing them will change this how? Are there any examples in the world of terrorism being reduced by outlawing an allied political group?

Like it or not Batasuna are representative of a significant minority of the Basque population and the Spanish government has to allow that minority a voice - otherwise it will find another way to express itself.

Look at the Irish example. In a country with numerous different paramilitary groups, which two have been the least active over the past several years? The Provisional IRA and the UVF, both of which are linked to parties which have been encouraged to take part in the democratic process. I don’t believe that’s an accident. Politicians are a moderating force in an armed movement and by taking that movement out of politics altogether you are only encouraging the militants within it - the people who have no interest in the democratic process anyway and just want to shoot and set off bombs. Essentially you are telling them that when they said that that was the only way they’d achieve their aims, they were right.

Regarding Galicia. When Celtic FC played Celta Vigo in the UEFA Cup last year some of the more politically-inclined fans of both teams made contact and I can say with certainty that there is a Galician separatist movement. A small one undoubtedly, but not nonexistent.

Finally sailor, for someone who doesn’t approve of the word “terrorist” you sure seem to be throwing it around it a lot in this thread. Is it different when it hits close to home?

20

I am sorry I even posted to this thread.