I’m seeing a lot of videos and stuff on Facebook that looks like things getting pretty nasty over this independence vote. Of course most of the descriptions are in Spanish or Catalan, and I don’t really speak either.
Is stuff getting as bad as it looks on my feed, or is my Catalan friend (who’s also in England, so it’s second hand) sharing misleading or one sided info?
Nava? Anyone else in the area able to explain what’s going on?
Hope it’s better than it looks!
Nava IIRC is a non-Catalan who was raised/spend a lot of time in the region.
What is happening is politicians trying their hardest to start a civil war it seems. 
Bet the Kremlin has ordered pop-corn while they watch.
I’m Catalan. I was kinda hoping the Dope to be a bit of an oasis for me, but of course the moment had to arrive. There we go.
I don’t support Catalonian independence, but I do want more federal rights for Catalonia. Politically I align somewhat with the PSC (the equivalent to the social democrats, I guess) I have access to Catalan and Spanish media. And no, there will be no civil war. We wouldn’t even know how to fight one, quite frankly.
Ask away.
I’m reasonably up on the basic movement, after working very tedious night shifts with a Catalan co-worker (would like to support independence, but thought in reality the problems would probably outweigh the benefits, if you’re curious). I also went to Barcelona earlier this year, and wandered past a couple of small protests. It seemed not that dissimilar to the Scottish independence movement; most people are on the fence or vaguely ‘Yeah, cool idea I guess’ with a fringe of strident supporters (and some people who are vehemently opposed, I guess, but they’re not so vocal).
It’s this whole vote which is bewildering me. It just seems bizarre that the government would try and physically stop a poll by blocking access to polling stations and storming them to confiscate ballots. That comes across like a comic book plot. How can that do anything but increase opposition?
Edit: Co-worker wasn’t tedious, he was great, I mean we had nothing else to do but talk.
It does. But the Spanish ruling party, the Popular Party, will never get votes from Catalan Nationalists, but will get the votes from Spanish Nationalists from elsewhere else. In their case, this polarization of postures also works in their electoral favor.
Will it? I mean, I’m English, and I thought Scottish independence was a terrible idea, but if the UK government had tried to violently suppress a Scots ballot, I know I’d be getting the bagpipes out.
I know the situation is different there, it’s not just one isolated large region that’s making independence noises, but from what we’re getting reported here, it seems the way it’s being handled would lose the government a lot of moderate support.
Right, so remember during the indyref how there were some isolated voices claiming that the whole vote happened because Parliament was too lenient with the Scots, how giving them their own parliament was a mistake and so on?
Imagine there were more of those. Way more hardliners. Pandering to them would be a very legitimate strategy.
If you don’t care about cranking up the tension, I guess so.
It seems a massive mis-step from the Spanish government and ridiculously heavy-handed. If you wanted a guaranteed way to drive up sympathies for a group then this is it.
The videos don’t look good at all. This is, ultimately, a democratic vote. The government may not like it and say that it is illegitimate and that’s fine. The correct response would be “vote all you want but unless it is sanctioned through the the proper channels we wont recognise it.” and then take it from there. I don’t see this as a sensible or productive responses from the Spanish Government. General Franco would be proud.
I’m sympathetic to the Catalan independence movement, but like Filbert I wonder if it is really the best solution to solve the specific problems that exist. I admit that my information is very limited, however.
Ultimately I’m pretty sure that I’ll still be able to get caganers, so whatever the people want, whatever will satisfy them, is fine with me. 
So, technically, reality is a bit more nuanced.
One, this referendum is not even legitimate according to the electoral rules of Parliament the Catalan Government leads. The Independence movement comprises a coalition of three parties, that make up slightly more than half of the Catalan Parliament seats (and less than half of the actual population). They jumped over several electoral laws to make this happen. In a way it’s a showing of political strength for these parties, and less about the will of the people.
Two, the Spanish Constitution literally forbids anything that goes against* “the Unity of Spain”*, and the Central Government claims that all the use of police force comes from the Spanish Constitutional Court. Of course, you would need to be seriously naive to believe there’s no collusion between the Government and the Court, but still, the referendum does go against the Constitutional text.
Could the government not use the courts to stop the vote?
Dola, stay safe. When eyes are averted would be an opportunity for a terror attack.
Yes. Absolutely.
However, they could argue that then they’d be breaking Constitucional law themselves.
So, anyway, at the end of the day, this whole thing is really about Barcelona vs Madrid.
Famous last words. Often said before a bloody civil war. If you think something is impossible (even if it is very unlikely) you will find it easier to take steps which bring you closer to it.
So, basically a bunch of political fucks willing to destroy the country to show how big they are. :mad:
These things are never with good outcomes.
So settle it the proper way, with an El Clasico. Not with running street battles.
Agreeing to a referendum on massive constitutional change, without having any agreement on what exactly details of said constitutional change will be is a very bad idea. As shown in the Brexit debacle.
I was reading about the 1995 Quebec referendum, and it was interesting, the Quebec Government side seemed to beleive that negotiation after an “Oui” vote would have resulted in Quebec staying in Canada, with special autonomy; while the Canadians seemed certain that it would mean seperation.
Until details are agreed; bad bad idea.
ETA: Anyway, to our Spanish residants, remain safe.
Not a chance. That was the line that the PQ was floating to encourage fence-sitters to vote Oui. In reality they had every intention of declaring independence if they won the referendum.
Lil sis: I think that independence is not a good idea, but I support greater autonomy for Catalonia, so I will vote yes to push for changes.
Me: So a protest vote?
Lil sis: Yes.
Those have worked out so great lately…
Bouchard said in a 2014 book that that
As the book points out the three main “Oui” leaders had different ideas as to the result of a positive outcome.
We have seen it with Brexit, where the Remainers clearly had no idea what exactly they wanted in case they won, and differing views as to what was desirable.
LSLGuy said it best a few years ago; a referendum is the electorate venting and should be treated as that, not a license to enact far-reaching and irreversible constitutuional change.
No, really. I mean, I get it, “the Spanish Civil War again! Ha ha!”. But really, Civil Wars don’t happen in a day. It takes years of ethnic / religious / political violence for that to happen.
And outside agitators willing to finance it. It might spawn some low level terror aka The Basques, but no outside governments will finance civil war.