Guy, I agree, but would go even further.
The Watchmen is simply a great work of fiction, graphic novel, super hero, or otherwise.
Bucky
Superman is the Al Gore of superheroes.
Silly men in thights…
For once you must try to face the facts: Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts.
Bucky,
Interestingly enough, “Watchmen” is being used as one of the required reading texts in one of the Arts & Sciences classes at Indiana University. Don’t know which class specifically, but it sounds like a class I would like to attend.
I’m not a fanboy by any stretch, but I have to say that “The Dark Knight” and “Watchmen” would make the very best comic adaptation movies ever. No storyboards or rewrites needed, just put 'em on film as they are. Animation would probably work best, though, and they would probably have to be adapted in a miniseries format.
“It’s only common sense,
There are no accidents 'round here.”
Yeah, Batman’s villians are more interesting, and there has to be an advantage when your enemies have question marks all over them, are dressed in black leather, or have green hair. You can certainly * see * them quicker!
Superman can ** fly **!! His x ray vision sees through houses, he could stop a train with one arm tied behind his back, * extremely advantageous *! 
It’s always bugged me, though, that people are fooled by Clark. There * just has to be * some kind of mind control at work here!
Judy
“Muck should replace ‘suck’. For ‘muck’ is yucky, while ‘suck’ feels very lucky. So, don’t stay stuck on suck, switch to MUCK, today.”
Or maybe(if you’ll recall the SNL sketch) they’re all just humoring him because they like having superman around.
Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate mother-fucker.
Superheroes aside, I have to agree that Batman has better villians - The Joker, The Riddler (my fav), Catwoman, The Penguin, Mr. Freeze… what a rogues gallery! And all emminently rememberable, whereas the first and only one people can remember of Superman’s is Lex Luthor. Um, and I guess that General Zod guy. Hmmm…
OK, so I don’t read the comics, and Batman had a cheesy TV show and a better movie franchise, but still - his enemies have panache! Surely that counts for something? 
Esprix
Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)
Hello? Does Brainiac ring a bell?
And I’ll say it again. Supes has x-ray vision. He can fly. He can squeeze a lump of coal into a diamond, so he’ll never be caught short financially. 'Nuff said. 
mazirian wrote:
You’re just sayin’ that because Al Gore looks like Christopher Reeve.
(Well, okay, like a more-wooden Christopher Reeve.)
The Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come, Watchmen, and the Astro City series are some of the greatest stories ever set down on paper, with or without pictures, IMHO. Then again, I’m a giant dork, so my bias is clear.
The Dark Knight Returns gives an especially good treatment to the idea of Batman as the pinnacle of human achievement (but at what price?) and Superman as a being so powerful he is akin to a force of nature (no matter his intentions, that much power is frightening to behold). Kingdome Come also deals a lot with the relationship between Batman and Superman both as people and as exemplars of their respective M.O.s.
I’d also suggest, for those who think Superman’s a chump, reading A Superman For All Seasons, by Tim Sale and Jeph Loeb. I’d always fallen on the Batman side of the Batman/Superman debate until reading Kingdom Come, and after reading A Superman For All Seasons, I’m not sure that I haven’t been converted to the other side. Big Blue is certainly not perfect, as some here believe. Imagine it: by birth, you’re almost a god. By upbringing, you’re a decent and sympathetic man, with a sense of responsibility to match your power. It’s not just that you can help lots of people with your power, you feel obligated. It would be easy to be overwhelmed by your own expectations for yourself. Not to mention lonely in your position.
Superman’s just as driven as Batman, in his own way. Hell, Superman’s parents were as big a factor in his becoming a hero as Batman’s were, though in a different way.
Not that I didn’t relish watching Batman kick the crap out of Supes in Dark Knight. I’m a sucker for a good David and Goliath throwdown like anybody else.
“Are you frightened of snakes?”
“Only when they dress like werewolves.”
-Preacher
Man, I’m a nerd.
“Are you frightened of snakes?”
“Only when they dress like werewolves.”
-Preacher
Plus, before Crisis on Infinite Earths, Superman could shrug off hydrogen bomb blasts, throw whole solar systems around the galaxy, and break the light-speed barrier without breaking a sweat.
He could? That’s nutty. No wonder they felt the need to reboot the whole universe.
I’m a child of Marvel, myself, so I’m not as well acquainted with DC stuff prior to the past few years (speaking of which, Claremont’s back on the X-Men! Claremont’s back on the X-men!).
Ahem. Sorry.
“Are you frightened of snakes?”
“Only when they dress like werewolves.”
-Preacher
Comparing two of my favourite characters? sigh If we must…
Who would I prefer? Well that’s easy from my perspective. Superman. Why? Because of what he embodies rather than what he is.
He represents all that’s good, decent and honest. A spirit that never gives up whatever the odds, and someone who does what’s right regardless of the cost. The ultimate idealist (with cool powers to boot). You could even go so far as to say the triumph of good over evil without sulliment.
Other descriptions: faith in humanity/the belief in our potential (positive), the love for your fellow man, the desire to make things better/right.
That’s not meant to denigrate Bruce, but his character is driven more by circumstances and is willing to cross certain boundaries (differing with each incarnation of course) to achieve ends. Sometimes the means did justify his ends. Fascinating and you still cheer because of the triumph (and often the cunning method) but it’s hardly an ideal to hold up is it?
But such comparison is unfair and reliant on context on personal opinion. I love both - they’re perfect foils. The Super Odd Couple.
Long live our dreams.
The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
Required reading for all you folks! (Warning: HUGE Superman bias. Hell, I’m wearing a Supes shirt right now. I plan on getting a Supes tattoo this summer)
Death Of Superman: TPB
Batman: Year One
Kingdom Come
Elseworlds: Speeding Bullets
Elseworlds: Superman/Superboy crossover, circa 96
JLA 7 or 8, I think. With Spectre guiding the JLA about how to deal with an alien invasion. MUCHO bravery by Superman.
I could list 100 others.
Superman is the bravest person I can imagine.
No, he’s not real. But who cares. When a person is this pure, why not strive to live as he does, even if he never was. Even if he is a myth, a fake, immaterial. What does this matter? If he inspires a single person to be better than they are, he is worth it. Superman is my Hero. He always will be.
How can you tear a man down who is as noble as he? If any single person debasing him were in trouble, Superman would lay down his life, thoughtlessly, to save you. Yeah, he’s not real. Who gives a fuck.
–Tim
You can’t accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot. - Coldfire
Two words: bat pole
If I remember correctly superman was working for the us gov. in the episode that had him and the dark knight square off. Both have respect for one another but with different views about how to go about doing the same job. (apples and oranges).
anyway there are international heroes. I believe there was red star in the old/new JLA.
In the new series on WB superman is much less campy then before and he seems to embody the american way even with it’s pitfalls.
Batman on the other hand is a horse of a different color. Gotham is much more dark then let’s say metropolis therfore the charecters are darker/lighter per towns.
I am quite sure that if superman had to deal with the dank of gotham everyday he to would get alittle mean spirited at times.
also batman has a foster family ROBIN(S),BATGIRL,NIGHTWING,ALFRED, AND EVEN COMM. GORDON./Without a support system like that Batman most surely would have a hard time seeing right from wrong given the enviroment.
As a Ditkoista, I feel compelled to point out that Rorschach was origninally meant as a variation on the Charlton Comics/Steve Ditko character The Question. I think Alan Moore (writer of Watchmen) wanted him to be a sort of freaky dark brother to the Question and Ditko’s objectivist vigilante Mr. A. This, combined with Alan Moore’s rather dark, cynical themes in Watchmen, understandably made him a bit different from ol’ Bats.
OK, now for my opinions on Supes & Bats.
- I like Clark Kent’s motivation better. Bruce Wayne wars on crime because of what crime did to him; Clark does what he does because he can, & because he’s a decent guy.
But then, growing up, I loved Spider-Man: the hero who does what he does because he has to do it; he learned the hard way that things would be a lot worse if he didn’t. “With great power comes great responsibility.”
2a) Batman’s had some decent sparring partners, but his “rogue’s gallery”–his most recognizable villains–are jokes. Or Bats himself is. Ever notice that they never send the Joker, etc., to prison? They send ‘em to that worthless incompetent insane asylum! Which is gross incompetence, of course, in the Joker’s case, as he’s not actually insane, but manipulating the system. (Hey, that’s my interpretation–you can read Grant Morrison’s Arkham Asylum for a still-somewhat-current portrayal of how DC’s writers envision the madhouse.)
If it were the real world, the incompetence would upset me. As a comic book, it offends me that it seems to say that really nasty criminals must be mentally ill; I think that’s a stupid delusion. And while some of the villains are provocative characters (Two-Face, the Ventriloquist) the Riddler is about as convincing a character as a Mad magazine parody.
2b) So does Superman have great recurring villains? Not really. Supes deals with the weird alien stuff, dangerous but pretty “normal” criminals, and so forth. The criminal as recurring villain is a stupid enough comic-book convention normally; against Superman, it’s in danger of being absurd.
But Luthor can be interesting. The hoary old Superboy story about Luthor losing his hair in an accident and blaming Superboy–excuse me–has squat to do with either Luthor’s origins as a character or the current version. So let’s leave that one behind, OK? But the “real” Lex Luthor–a brilliant but somewhat corrupt man who envies the glory that Superman gets–is a pretty interesting character, but ol’ Lex has been shafted by lousy writing.
Oh, well. It really depends on the writing, and the editorial position, for me. I like Mike W. Barr’s version of Batman. I think the current one is a lunatic and a fool–not even the same guy.
Some of my favorite super-heroes–or rather, treatments of super-hero type characters:
Spider-Man, as written by Ann Nocenti;
Doctor Zero, as written by Dan Chichester & Margaret Clark;
Kitty Pryde (in Excalibur), as written by Chris Claremont;
the Justice League, as written by Keith Giffen with J. M. DeMatteis & Gerard Jones;
and–believe it or not–Batman and the Outsiders, as written by Mike W. Barr.
P.S. Oh yeah, the guy in the Justice League that BRIAN BROVOLD was thinking of was probably Rocket Red–an Iron Man riff, funded by the gov’t of the USSR. (Although DC does have a “Red Star” charcter, too, IIRC.)
Oh, and Homer—Where are you putting the Big Red “S”?
Yes, I am an egomaniac; why do you ask?
…You didn’t ask?
Ah, but I knew you were dying to!
…You weren’t?
[GQ/MIPSIMS Moment]
All the Watchmen characters were originally supposed to be Charlston characters. Rorschach/Question and Night Owl/Blue Beetle are the only ones I can actually remember. When DC started bringing the Charlston characters into the DCU, this of course became impossible.
[/GQ/MIPSIMS Moment]
Eschew Obfuscation
Ah yes now I remember, it was rocket red. I personally loved batman and the outsiders. I also enjoyed that era of JLA. Does anyone remember a guy named BOOSTER GOLD?
What happened to the new teen titans? kid flash? And have ant other robins joined the titans since nightwing?
[HIJACK: DC SUPERHERO INFORMATION]
Okay, here goes:
The Teen Titans have been reorganized a few times. The current group is simply called the Titans, and is built around the members of the “old” Teen Titans:
Dick Grayson, the original Robin, now Nightwing;
Donna Troy, the original Wonder Girl–I think she may be using the name Troia still;
Roy “Speedy” Harper, now Arsenal;
Wally West, formerly Kid Flash, now simply the Flash–he took the name after his mentor, the previous Flash, died;
and Garth “Aqualad” Curry, now called Tempest.
The other members include Dick’s ex-fiancée Kory–aka Starfire–and lady speedster Jesse Quick. The book is written by Dick’s sister, Devin Grayson. 
The second Robin (killed by the Joker) was Jason Todd.
Tim Drake is the current Robin. He and the current Wonder Girl are part of a Teen-Titans-riff team called Young Justice.
The Young Justice comic is written by Peter David, who is also responsible for the current version–a very freaky revision, in fact–of Supergirl. He plays with some strange ideas about God and angels in that one.
As for Watchmen, of course Dr. Manhattan was a Captain Atom riff, and there was a pretty recognizable riff on Peacemaker, too. But I wasn’t trying to get into that.
[/HIJACK]
Seriously, though, I am pretty geekified when it comes to superheroes. I realized after my last post that I was arguing about differences of personality between Superman & Batman, instead of dealing with the real conceptual difference between an idealized “Mr. Perfect” crimefighter without any obviously fantastical abilities, and an idealized “Mr. Perfect” crimefighter with obviously fantastical abilities.
Hmmm… I prefer Spider-Man. Admittedly a fantastic character, both superhuman, & an unusually skilled engineer & chemist, but mostly a regular joe in character.
But I still like that Superman’s motivation is simply that his father taught him that he should use his powers to help mankind. Beautifully simple.
Tony Kanal, you IDIOT!!!