Batman wins if he's "prepared"

Cafe Society
41

Fenris, Fenris, Fenris.

Dammit.

I need to go to bed, man.

Yet my dander is up. Fenris! Ye have impugned my Batman-tactical skills and this MUST be seen as the foolish, desperate gambit it IS!

  1. It’s not Batman’s job to be a jailer. BUT: given a 24 hour warning, he is capable, willing and has the resources to stop a Arkham escape or Gotham City jailbreak, regardless of who it was.

  2. The Phantom Zone has had a number of different interpretations over the years. A) The most prevailing view, especially in the Silver Age, was the Zone as an invisible, intangible dimension full of Kryptonians trapped in ghost form. The Kryptonians could use their normal (not superpowered) senses to see and hear outside the Zone, but interaction to anyone on the outside was limited. B) The first two Superman movies held that the Phantom Zone was an inescapable two dimensional prison within the space time continuum where the inhabitants were removed from Kryptonian society to float in space where they would not age or die. C) The JLA Morrison issues featuring the new Injustice Gang showed that the Phantom Zone was a readily accessible dimension to a number of alien races who gave it different names (e.g… “Limbo” and the “Still Zone”) and could be physically traversed as a shortcut across galactic distances; those inside the Zone weren’t intangible to each other at all. D) In fact, there was a Superman Adventure comic (based on the TV cartoon, can’t remember the ish) where Mala and Zod were physically fighting with Granny Goodness, who used a Boom Tube to access the Zone. E) Of all these interpretations, I do not recall ANY instance where a Phantom Zone criminal had Superman-level superpowers while in the Zone, though.

So: I say it’s very likely that cranky Batman could enter the Zone, encounter a non-super-powered Kryptonian who threatend to escape, and pimp-slap him into unconsciousness. And wake him up the same way.

  1. I concede that the average Pre-Crisis Kryptonian under Sol’s influence could attain light-speed, have vast number-crunching abilities and time travel under their own power. But the rest is hyperbole. Fenris: kindly cite the Pre-Crisis issue of ANY DC comic where ANY Kryptonian has been able to snuff out a freaking sun using super-breath (in airless space, no less!) or affect a real-time attack on Earth from across the galaxy using his own power-- or indeed, from another planet within our solar system – and I will bow to that scenario as “possible”. At BEST such an attack would involve heat vision and telescopic vision, which move at light-speeds at best ( but I’ve seen way too many villians dodge or deflect Superman’s heat beams, so…) As far as the heat beam goes: if the attack was from deep space, much of its force and intensity would likely dissipate by the time it even reached Earth, even given the insane power-levels of a Pre-Crisis Superman. (of course, all YOU have to do is cite one measly instance! I’ll wait.)

Incidentally, super-number crunching ability has bumpkus to do with devising tactics, assessing dangers, plotting booby-traps and weapons attacks, etc. It just means under optimal conditions the Kryptonian’s brain moves as fast as a Pentium 4. Some kryptonite – or better yet, red sun radiation – should disrupt those synapses nicely.

  1. If Luthor, a human, is seen as smarter than the average Kryptonian, then our polygot Morrison Batman’s intellect should at least be in Luthor’s league, at a minimum.

  2. I concede, most versions of Batman probrably shouldn’t ask for help. Morrison’s super-sneaky Batman definitely wouldn’t (this is the same man that hacked into a Pentagon black-ops computer to gain information about IT), but he would STEAL or BOOBYTRAP what he needed in a heartbeat (he did both to Prometheus). So: he’d use his JLA protocols to access the Trophy Room in the Watchtower to help himself to a number of purloined gadgets to take out the kryptonian, if need be. He might even gain illegal access to the Fortress of Solitude, Z’onn Z’orr or any other place with high alien technology and adapt it for his own use.

  3. Heh. The boiling Batman alive in the lead lined room was a nice touch. But, y’know – Batman IS an escape artist and he IS in the Batcave, so maybe all is not what it seems…

Pleasure talking to you.

Askia, The Bat-Fan With A Bat-Plan.

42

I am not going to get into the middle of the Fenris/Askia Batman hypos (though they are rather inventive and enjoyable to read!) but I do want to add my two cents.

I have always had difficulties with the Batman as a character. One of the greatest things about comic books is that they allow you to suspend disbeliefe and believe in super heros. For example, Superman requires that you believe that an alien landed on earth and was raised by normal midwesterners. It was far out but not so far from home as to be too ridiculous. An alien flying made some sense in the super hero world. Batman has never passed that same litmus test.

Intellect and money aside, Batman is a rather boring character. A Sherlock Holmes without the wit and charm. It always seemed absolutely silly to me that he could ever dodge a bullet or avoid being punched in the head. It seemed so silly that it was impossible, for me, to suspend the disbeliefe and thus, undermine the cornerstone of the comic experience.

That said, Batman preparing in the DKR made sense. He had been preparing for a fight with Superman for more then 30 years. It fit the story and it was accomplished with rare logic. Batman since then is almost a charicature. Perhaps he is a balm for every fan-boy who wants to believe that a human, without powers, can compete with the make-believe heros. This nonsense that with preparation he is unbeatable is utterly silly and, in my mind, destroys the glue which holds the comic universe together. It has been taken to such a degree that it appears that Batman is the man of steel. I am not sure that works on any level.

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He’s the world’s greatest detective and the most dangerous man alive.

But he ain’t God. And…say it with me now…that’s okay.

Vorae, Bat-Fan 'Til I Die, Yo

44

Lochdale, welcome aboard and you have a valid rationale, BUT…

The reason I enjoy the Batman character above others is that he is a conflicted and tortured soul. His entire life is about the fine line between justice and revenge. Psychologically, he is no better than those that he fights. Often times he struggles with his own sanity, but he continues because he has no other choice.

No “heat vision,” no tornado breath, just a man who continues to struggle even though he knows he is ultimately doomed to fail. That’s my kind of hero.:wink:

45

Old news.

46

Well… this is sort of like holding Madonna in disdain because she’s not Aretha Franklin, isn’t it? And divoring Batman from two defining characteristics of the character strikes he as a bit finicky: “Her flair for self-reinvention and penchant for flaunting conventional sexuality aside, Madonna is rather a boring pop singer. An Aretha Franklin without the vocal depth and range.”

I, for one, never said that Batman was unbeatable… just that with Prep-Time©, strategy, and the right equipment, he could take X character out. Given the right scenario (that’s up to the writer to make it plausible) it can work. It worked for you in DKR.

47

Ok. I’ll grant you all this. But.

But let’s get past this point. The OP says “Batman wins, if prepared.” So let me state the challenge that Bats has to win more clearly: the Pre-Crisis Earth-1 Zod AFTER he escapes from the Phantom Zone, destroyed the only two Phantom Zone projectors out there (there’s one in the Fortress and one in the Bottle City of Kandor), zipped over (via Hypertime) to the Post-Crisis world (Hey, Supergirl, pre-Crisis just did, during Zero Hour, the real Superboy did too) and is running amok. He’s killed most of the other Super-Heroes out there and is now challenging Batman who’s been unconcious during this period after a particularly brutal battle with Crazy Quilt :stuck_out_tongue: . Batman regains conciousness just as Zod issues his challenge. Batman’s 24 hours starts now.

**

I’m not about to dig through all my back-issues ( :slight_smile: ) but a quick check of the Great Superman Book says that in the March '65 Superman, Supes throws a spaceship filled with Superman Revenge Squad members into “a far distant galaxy, light years away”. In Action 226. Superman uses his Telescopic vision to locate a specific person in another solar-system. In realtime. I have no idea what telescopic vision uses, but it’s not bound by light-speed. And according to the same book, in Superman #91, (from 1954) “Superman extinguishes a star with a blast of his super-breath” and in Action #273, Mytzptlk uses a sneezing powder to make Superman sneeze. Superman’s super-sneeze is so powerful that it "literally destroys an entire ‘distant’ solar system ". If you’re not willing to trust me that heat vision can go faster than light with pinpoint accuracy, Zod just goes to another solar system and sneezes at ours. End of Bats and a partiularly ignoble fate it is!

There’s an issue of Superboy in the roughly 50-100 range (same year period) where Superboy fills up his super-lungs with air and blows out a sun that’s going to explode. He tows it away and builds a new sun by throwing a bunch of rocks together. But it needs to be lit. So he flies to a planet covered with trees, scoops them up and squeezes them into a giant stick, he then flies to some more planets, digs up the appropriate chemicals and coats one end of the giant stick so now he has a matchstick an AU long or so. He strikes the match against a convienient moon and reignites the sun.

The Weisinger Superman wasn’t really bound by logic or science. You wanted good science, you read the Julius Schwartz books. You wanted really great adventure stories that had a weird Alice-in-Wonderland internal logic but had NOTHING to do with reality, Weisinger was the place to turn.

I no longer have a solid run of Superboy so I can’t dig up an issue number but if you look at my posting history, you’ll see that I normally don’t use the “I can’t find an issue/I can’t remember an issue” excuse and my knowledge of the '60s Superman family titles are pretty well documented.

**

**
This is a VERY good point.

Fenris

P.S. Vorae said “But he ain’t God. And…say it with me now…that’s okay.” I agree.

48

I should point out that the concept doesn’t start with Frank Miller. I could point at the '64 New Look Batman for the beginning of the Grim and Gritty Defeat Any Foe style… but I think I have to go earlier. Back to 1941… and the first issue of World’s Finest. They had to have a way for Batman to bring something to the table with Superman… and this is how it developed.

49

Mort Weisinger sucks all kinds of butt.

And ** ResIpsaLoquitor’s** Bat-Mite idea is looking better and better.

So all have have to do is come up with a plausible way for Batman to defeat General Zod in THIS scenario – even though THIS version of Zod is an omnipotent, nigh-omniscient genocidal meglomaniacal sociopath who has destroyed two key units of surviving Kryptonian technology and kiled damn near every potential superhuman ally Batman could turn to – with 24 hours of preparation?

Hh. Thought this was supposed to be a challenge, Fenris. Your conditions are actually pretty fair.

You’ll permit me to think on this awhile. I’m no longer on spring break… besides, nobody said I had to do this within 24 hours… :smiley:

50

If kryptonite radiation didn’t do long term damage Batman would probably have specks of it implanted in his hands so he could just punch out superman whenever he needed to.

51

It occurs to me that faster-than-light travel is quite common in the DC Universe, both pre- and post-crisis. It stands to reason, then, that there are FTL sensors. It shouldn’t be too hard for Bats to get his hands on one, then.

Ok…Batman can now track Zod as he comes in at .999999 C. But what to do about him…?

Batman finds Warp (the bad guy who used to fight the Teen Titans). He has the ability to make “warp gates” that can teleport things. All he needs to do now is find some way to boost his ability. Using Green Lantern’s power ring comes to mind. Based on past history, borrowing/stealing the ring from Kyle is pathetically easy.

Zod’s about to hit the Earth when Batman & Warp use the JLA teleporters to intercept him a few light seconds away. Using his boosted ability, Warp opens up a gate right in front of Zod, who finds himself about to collide with the star Proxima Centauri.

Proxima Centauri has two interesting features:

  1. It’s the nearest star to our Sun, only 4.2 light years away.
  2. It’s a red dwarf.

Zod loses his powers, and strikes the star. This may be enough to make it go nova. While this may cause some distress for Adam Strange, it does solve Batman’s problem.

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**

Morty rocked and the market bore him out. The Superbooks (IIRC) never sold more copies than they did under his reign. Th’ guy’s Superman has more sensawonda than any other version. [sub]Granted, the depth of characterization was, oh, barely an inch deep, but…[/sub]
**

No prob, but I have to make three minor :wink: additions before we start: I was rushing out the door for work and didn’t have time to append my post before posting it. Feel free to add onto your time to make up for this.

Before Zod left Earth-1, he flew into the far future and borrowed/stole the Time Trapper’s Iron Curtain of Time and the Miracle Machine (read “The Cosmic Cube”) and Braniac 1’s force Field projector.

For those not familiar, the Iron Curtain of Time is a dealie that prevents Time Travel into or out of a particular period. The entire Legion of Super-Heroes couldn’t break through it. The Miracle Machine is the Cosmic Cube and Braniac 1’s force field projector makes a force-field that Superman, Supergirl and Krypto, plus a bunch of teeny-tiny (but incredibly powerful) Kandorians (the powerful Earth-1 versions) can’t break through.

Once Zod has snuffed Bat’s allies but BEFORE Bats woke Zod did the following. He turned on the Iron Curtain of Time. No help from the past or future. He used the Force Field projector to surround Earth with an invisible force-field that nothing can break. He’s outside the force-field of course.

And then he used the Miracle Machine to wish the following "I wish that when Batman wakes up from his Crazy-Quilt induced coma, that the nature of the universe changes in as follows ways:

  1. No one can ever use or even touch the Miracle Machine except me ever again. Even if time travel is used to go back before the wish was made, it won’t work. That goes for any other god-machine like device that people try to sneak over

  2. I’m immune to kryptonite, magic, “Q-Radiation” (Superman #203, look it up if you care), red solar radiation, 5th dimensional imp magic, etc.

  3. Magic doesn’t exist anymore in any case* This includes magical beings like the Spectre . Um…neither does Green Lantern/Guardian energy.

  4. No matter what Batman does, he always loses from now on. And no “Well, he tries to help me so when he loses he hurts me” type crap. His ultimate goal, even if he convinces himself otherwise (via self-hypnosis or that kinda crap) will always fail.

  5. Regardless of any bullshit he might pull with rule #4, he can’t through action or inaction harm or hinder me in any way, phyisically, mystically, mentally or emotionally.

  6. No one, not even me (even if I’m tricked or something), can undo wishes one through six

  7. No-one can ever enter or leave this dimension ever again. Hypertime is closed, the Infinte Earths are closed “parallel dimensions” like Gemworld are closed." Zod wishes

  8. Says Zod, upon preview “It’s been inconsistant whether or not Braniac’s Force Field is teleport proof or not. The question has now been resolved. I wish that it WAS teleport-proof.” (Good one, Gorillaboy, but what’s to stop Zod from flying away or around the warp field? He’s faster than light and Warp is a slowpoke.)

“Oh yeah.” adds Zod “One other thing: .0000000000000001 seconds after Batman’s “24 hours to Prepare” ends, his head explodes like a bag of popcorn left in the microwave too long. And nothing can undo this wish either.” sez Zod.

THEN he issues his challenge.

Remember; the OP (and the Grant Morrison version) says any situation.

Go for it, my friend! :smiley:

As an aside, I’m cheating. I’m doing something that no super-villian ever does: I’m thinking about things. I’ll happily conceed that if it was Zod, Earth 1 as he’s normally written vs Batman, Batman stands a fighting chance.

BTW, Askia, I’m really enjoying this geekfest we’re having! You should post more often! :slight_smile:

Fenris

*The Miracle Machine is science, not magic, so it isn’t affected by this.

53

Time Dilation. While his mass has increased by a factor of 50,000,000, his reaction time has also slowed by a factor of 50,000,000. He has superspeed, but he’s not Barry Allen.

(This is independent of the Miracle Machine/Curtain of Time stuff, of course)

54

I had an idea some time ago about how Luthor could maybe kill Superman in a fairly underhanded manner; I see no reason why Batman couldn’t adapt it for use against any renegade Kryptonians he encounters. The idea takes advantage of Kryptonian psychology, and assumes that a Phantom Zone escapee would be feeling so invincible with his new powers that he wouldn’t even consider ordinary humans like Batman to be a threat (not an unreasonable assumption, if Batman’s battles with Killer Moth and the Mad Hatter are visible from the Phantom Zone).

Batman would have to get in fairly close to the villain to start with, so he would need to choose a battlefield where the Kryptonian would be expected to be moving at less than light speed for a short length of time. For this purpose, he would probably want to set up in Washington DC. Although said Kryptonian villain could vaporize the city from orbit, it’s pretty much a given that he will instead choose to humiliate Earth’s most powerful nation by knocking over the Washington Monument, forcing the President to kiss his boots etc. Of course, he will take time out to revel in the destruction of the military forces attempting to defend the nation’s capital: melting whole battalions of tanks into slag with heat vision, catching missiles and hurling them back at the planes that fired them, and all that good stuff.

While this is going on, Batman would get himself into position. He would be disguised as just another soldier, so as not to arouse any suspicion. None of that goofy-ass “I’ve got my Bat-costume concealed under my clothes and somehow am wearing my cowl under a convincing latex mask” crap. Presumably Zod or whoever would be too engrossed in the large-scale carnage to focus on one measly soldier with no powers. Safety in plain sight, ya see. The old Purloined Letter.

Batman takes aim with a high-powered sniper rifle fitted with a laser scope, and fires. Since he’s well aware that bullets have no effect on him, Random Kryptonian Supercriminal doesn’t even bother to dodge. HIS LAST MISTAKE!!! For these are no ordinary bullets, but lead-jacketed Kryptonite. Actually, steel-jacketed lead alloy armor-piercing rounds with a Kryptonite core in place of depleted uranium, I guess. For an extra helping of juicy Krypto-death, the laser scope is actually focused red-sun radiation. Death by Flashlight!

…What do you think, Sirs?

55

Don’t use a laser scope; even if it’s beaming red sun radiation at him, he’s still absorbing yellow sun radiation at the same time. While this might weaken him a bit, it will also draw attention to the shooter.

(Just as an aside, I’m not sure if Batman could do this; he has a major hangup about guns…)

As for the bullet itself, the last thing you want to do is jacket it in lead. Lead stops Green K radiation! It might just bounce off without penetrating his skin.

56

Well, the idea behind the laser scope was that the red solar radiation would be focused only on the tiny area where the bullet would strike, to allow ease of ingress, rather than create an overall draining effect that would be more noticeable. I got the “red sun flashlight” idea from Superman Vs. Muhammad Ali.

As for the lead jacketing, I assumed that it would be sloughed off on impact, allowing the Kryptonite core to penetrate the target, in much the same way the DU core works on standard armor-piercing rounds. the nice thing about this setup is that it works just as well if your rampaging supercriminal isn’t actually a Kryptonian, but is instead a misidentified Daxamite. The two species are easy to confuse, especially from a distance.

But you’re right, I hadn’t even considered Batman’s latent gun phobia. This guy is just a walking sack of neuroses. Do we* really* want to trust this sad bastard to save us from the guy who can blow out the sun?!

Hell, maybe he can subcontract out the job to Robin or something.

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Alright, let’s see everybody here come up with a fun solution to the following problems. Assume that in all cases, Batman is deprived of his utility belt and all other hidden weapons (i.e., the bat-blowtorch in his ear.) Also assume that the JLA and any other metahuman/alien/mystic hero is conveniently out of town, and can’t come to his aid. There is no “right” answer; I’m making these up as I go along.:

-The Joker launches Batman into outer space in a sealed capsule that contains 2 hours of breathable air. The capsule was fired by force and has no means of self-propulsion. Batman is tied up by ropes. The only other things inside the capsule are some chattering teeth, a bottle of seltzer water, a rubber chicken, and a vacuum cleaner.

-Batman is swallowed by Godzilla. Batman is conveniently wearing a rubber radiation suit and mask that protects him from the stomach acids and radiation, but only for the next 45 minutes. Godzilla will not have to go through the bathroom anytime soon.

-Batman, while driving the Batmoblile, falls into the Negative Zone without passing into the transformation field that would have converted him to antimatter. He’s rapidly approaching an asteroid field, and will probably hit it in the next 30 minutes.

-Batman falls off a sheer cliff with no decent handholds. He manages to grab onto a small lone tree branch (only one hand can hold it) protruding from the cliff. Having narrowly escaped a sausage factory, Batman now has the smell of meat about him. A pair of tigers awaits him at the top of the cliff. Another pair awaits him at the bottom. Several mice are chewing through the branch, and will probably weaken it to the point where Batman will drop in 5 minutes. (For the hell of it, there’s a lone strawberry on the branch.)

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  1. Batman uses the vacuum cleaner to suck up the breathable air in the capsule, turning it into a makeshift aqualung. He then opens the capsule and, using the seltzer water as reaction mass, manages to alter course to rendezvous with the International Space Station. Once he gains entry to the airlock, he evades confrontation with the astronauts by hurling the rubber chicken at the nearest one. The chattering teeth, which have been installed in the chicken’s beak, latch on to the unsuspecting astronaut’s face and the victim flails out of control, distracting the others who assume that the chicken is some sort of freaky alien thing. In the confusion, Batman makes his way to the escape pod, ejects, and splashes down in Gotham Reservoir just in time to prevent the release of the Joker Fish.

  2. Godzilla, like many birds and dinosaurs, presumably has some kind of crop or gizzard which contains stones for grinding food, or for ballast. Batman would work his way into the crop and shift the stones further down into the digestive tract. Since Godzilla’s digestive system is both acid- and radiation-based, it stands to reason that the lower end of the GI tract is designed to admit very little if any solid matter, since nothing much could survive the trip. Once the tract has been blocked, the resulting backup would give Godzilla the worst case of acid reflux in history, allowing Batman to wriggle free as the beast is desperately venting his radiation breath in an attempt to cool off his internal organs.

  3. Batman could presumably use any of the Batmobile’s many projectile-type devices (harpoons, caltrops, etc.–even an oil slick) to shunt asteroids out of his way; since they’re normal matter as well, they will also react explosively with any antimatter. However, the best thing would be to get back to the Negative Zone portal, which he might be able to accomplish by using the gas from the tires or air bags as jets, or by judiciously positioning the Batmobile at an angle and “surfing” carefully timed matter/antimatter blasts back to the starting point. Side Note: Do we know for certain that the Batmobile* isn’t* equipped to maneuver in space under its own power? Just in case, you know.

  4. Batman manages to dislodge the strawberry with a carefully placed “farmer’s sneeze,” and catches it in his free hand. He then bites it in half, relishing the sweet, sweet juice, and uses the two halves as projectiles to dislodge the mice, which he catches and stuffs into his pants with one hand. Having done so, he carefully wriggles out of his pants and loops them around the branch. Since the branch is no longer in any danger of being nibbled through, Batman now has time to remove his cape, unravel it with his teeth, and produce a thin nylon rope. Next, he throws down his meat-stained, mouse-infested pants to distract the lions at the base of the cliff. While the lions are briefly lured away by the smell and the motion of the entrapped trouser mice, Batman takes advantage of his pantsless state to urinate in a large circle around the base of the cliff. Having marked his territory, he is now able to lower himself down by the rope, leaving him free, safe and joyfully pantsless on the African savannah. Kreegah! Bundolo!

59

Opps! Wait a second… those are tigers, not lions! Crap, that changes everything!

…What are tigers doing in Africa, anyway?

60

In point of fact, he is.

As far as I can remember, on Earth-1, the three Superman/Flash races, they tied. Superman can’t do the vibrational crap or the “complete control of every molecule in his body” stuff, but in terms of speed and reflexs, if he’s slower than Barry, it’s just by a fraction of a second. Time dialation doesn’t affect Barry and since Superman zips back and forth between (say) here and the Lesser Magellenic Clouds with no relativistic effects, so he should be just fine.

BTW, for anyone who cares, gorillaboy is the friend I mentioned who did the math for what happens if Zod hits the earth at relativistic speeds. He may know his physics, but I know my Silver Age comics. And which skill will make you luckier with the chicks? I ask you that.

:smiley:

Fenris