Batman wins if he's "prepared"

< Adam West voice >
An…excellent plan, old chum, but you’ve made three crucial errors!

  1. Red Solar radiation is a mix of wavelengths (I have no idea what they are, but Superman doesn’t lose his powers every time he goes into Jimmy’s darkroom. Plain old red light won’t do it) and a laser, pretty much by definition is only one wavelength.

  2. A chunk of kryptonian powers come from the gravity too; while there’ve been stories to the contrary (consistancy? C’mon. :wink: ) it’s a mix of the gravity and the “yellow solar radiation” that does it.

  3. Lead stops kryptonite radiation.

But these are problems that could be solved.

< / Adam West voice >

Fair enough regarding not draining his powers…but don’t forget about all his super-senses. He’s going to zero in on that beam.

BTW…how exactly does one make a “red solar radiation laser”? A laser by definition emits light of a single wavelength; how would it be different from a $3.99 novelty laser?

Mind you, I’m not saying that it wouldn’t work in a comic book world…the science on Earth-1 is a bit more, um, forgiving than in the real world.

Good point. That should work under the rules of Earth-1. That having been said…how long does it take for Green K to degrade invulnerability to the point of penetrating skin with a bullet? That bullet’s only going to be close enough to weaken the target for milliseconds before it hits. I remember many stories in which it takes at least a few seconds for Superman to start losing his powers.

Make that three species if you include Humans, four if you include Thanagarians, etc. There are a lot of species in the DC universe who look just like us.

What a coincidence! I mean, what are the odds…?

ResIpsaLoquitor:

That hardly seems fair, as this thread is about Batman reacting (and preparing) as Batman, gadgetry included.

Are you assuming Batman had the OP’s 24 hours to prepare for this situation? Then he avoids it happening.

Piece of cake. 45 minutes is plenty of time for Batman to chop through Godzilla’s torso to freedom, even if you limit him to chopping instruments he finds inside Godzilla. You forget that we are all never more vulnerable than when we have a human being inside our body bent on mischief. The advantage here is all Batman’s.

Inadmissable. The Negative Zone is not an “opponent;” it’s just a place.

This is the easiest one of all. All Batman has to do is yell for Beetle Bailey to toss down a rope.

Sorry Fenris, but you’re trying to have it both ways. While it’s quite true that Barry was immune to relativistic time dilation, he also was immune to relativistic mass increase, since he didn’t suck up entire cities when running at near lightspeed.

Zod, on the other hand, is not immune to relativistic mass increase…you said so yourself. He is therefore presumably not immune to relativistic time dilation. Conclusion: he’s still toast.

Ah, but when Supes is going back and forth to the Lesser Magellenic Cloud, he’s going about warp zillion…given that it only takes him a few hours rather than 420,000 years. Relativistic effects are out the window once you’re past the speed of light.

http://www.gamespy.com/comics/dorktower/archive.asp?nextform=viewcomic&id=737

You tell me :stuck_out_tongue:

OK, try this one on for size:

Batman vs. Cecil Adams.

Enjoy.

If Batman is eaten by Godzilla he would be ground into powder by the stones in the gizzard. (nevermind that Godzilla’s throat muscles would have crushed Batman when he was swallowed)

First of all, being “prepared” is one of the lamest super powers ever.

Next, all this speculation is well and good but ultimately meaningless. While Batman leafs through the Scout Handbook to get prepared, any halfway decent hero will have already dealt with the threat. As a result, Batman only gets the opponents that real heroes don’t bother with. That’s why you call Superman if you need to save the world. You only call Batman if you have a problem with clowns or penguins. Just make sure you give him plenty of time to prepare.

Finally, Batman vs. Cecil Adams would be brutal. But I would pay for tickets just so I could watch Batman cry.

Save for the majorly, majorly lame “Batman Year Two” crap where Batman not only carries around and uses a gun, but TEAMS UP WITH HIS PARENT’S MURDERER.

As I mentioned in another thread, early Batman used guns a lot. Even automatic weapons. His belt also contained vials of “choking gas” and he wasn’t above using his silken rope as a garrotte.
Plus, we’re overlooking the fact that Batman knows more different ways to kick somebody in the groin than any other superhero. All he’d have to do is wear batboots that have the toes dusted with kryptonite and kick Zod in the nuts really hard. Game.
Set.
Match.
Batman wins again.

Besides, the best way for Batman to deal with the Zod is to have already replaced the Miracle Machine with, say, Chameleon Boy, thanks to a hermetically sealed message left buried in the Rock and Roll Museum in Cleveland.

Having already deduced the location Zod will flee to, he shall then strategically deploy kryptonite-infused net launchers in some convient asteroids. And all that’s left to do after that is the cleanup.

Okay, so if Askia successfully argues that Batman can defeat anyone with only 24 Hours of Preparation[sup]TM[/sup], doesn’t this make Batman, at least unofficially, the Most Powerful Being in the Universe?

(And just as an aside, doesn’t that seem very wrong to anyone else here?)

So who wins in a fight between Batman and Batman? (Random punks in bat costumes do not qualify. Bruce Wayne vs. Bruce Wayne, all things equal.)

Aren’t they the same person? :eek:

::Vorae is promptly taken out back and shot::

FWIW: In re: Bats and kryptonite. I remember one two-parter in the World’s Finest – this would have been back in the 1970’s, and, oh, how much I wish now I had devoted those brain cells to more study – where Batman carried a chunk of kryptonite in his utility belt. The plot of the two-parter involved an efreet that possessed both Bats and Supes after they traveled back in time to the Revolutionary War. After the efreet possessed Superman, Batman had a young bugler use his slingshot to bounce it off Superman’s head and bring him back to his senses.

Batman is the ultimate Boy Scout: always prepared.

Askia: Thanks for the post. I hadn’t checked out the 86th Floor in a couple of years.

reading this thread just makes me gnash my teeth that I sold my leather bound copy of DKR on Ebay. :frowning:

Miller’s BM and Gaiman’s Morpheus

there’s still hope for the art form (I know I’m slow to catch on, but I’m glad when I do)

Sorry, but this is just wrong. At absolute most, he had 9 issues in which he used guns. Detective #28 (I know his first appearance was in #27, but I’m sure he didn’t use a gun in it) through Detective #37 (the BATMAN title hadn’t come out yet.) As soon as Robin joined him in Det. #38 he mellowed considerably and while you could find instances of him doing trick shots with a gun, he wasn’t shooting at people. I recall him using a gun in maybe two of those nine issues. That’s not “a lot”. One of these days, I’m gonna sit down and actually count the gun usage for when this comes up again.

Fenris

didnt’ he have a rifle as late as DKR during the helicopter/skyscraper episode ? ? ? ? ?

Detective #29: He threatens a thug with the thug’s captured pistol. Could be a bluff, and he certainly doesn’t use it.

Detective #32, he shoots a sleeping vampire with a pistol

That’s it. Twice. I checked Detective #27-42 just to be safe. (I love DC Archives) and by #42, things had mellowed so much that movie producers were trying to convince Batman and Robin to become movie stars.

Anyway that’s all I counted (although granted, I just skimmed.

Fenris

I can’t believe I’m getting up this early to type this crap…

Your original scenario left open a HELL of a lot more entertaining possibilities for me to play with for Zod’s defeat, Fenris. I had a notebook by my bed full of ideas: “Zod lured to Z’onn Z’orr White Martian prison”, “Batman with Atom’s size changing belt attacks Zod from inside”, “Infects Zod with modified kryptonian viruses from Kandor’s equivalent of the CDC”, “Batman uses mind device to transfer consciousness mind into a fleet of Smallville Superboy robot,” etc.

My favorite idea: a mere 7 hours into Zod’s 24 hour deadline, Batman shocks Zod by announcing over the airwaves he’s ready. Wearing a modified circa 1985 Lex Luthor battlesuit with vaccum-suspended hollow-tipped antimatter pulse cannon (to try something different than the typical /red solar radiation/magic/kryptonite attack) and time perception-enhancements somehow keyed to Flash’s perception, (to counter Zod’s superspeed tricks) Batman launches a desperate suicide attack on Zod, that has a certain degree of menace but another, secret ulterior purpose: to make SURE that, if defeat was imminent, Zod killed him ONLY under certain controlled circumstances in a place of Batman’c choosing. Sure enough, in the heated battle, Batman does manage to seriously wound Zod yet gets killed. Victorious yet suspicious, wounded yet no fool, Zod inspects Batman’s remains with his microscopic and X-ray vision to make sure that, yes, it’s really Batman, not a clone, not a robot, not a shapeshifting Martian, that he’s really dead, etc. Satisfied, Zod flies off to lick his wounds and conquer the world. Unknown to Zod, the ground where Batman falls is actually an early Lazurus pit of Ra’s Al Ghuls’s, held in biochemical stasis by Batman – which was unwittingly ACTIVATED by Zod himself with his super-vision, as per Batman’s REAL plan… The pit slowly resurrects and heals Batman, leaving Batman to crawl out of the ground. SKIP TO: Six months into the future… Zod has installed himself as absolute lord and master of Earth, and has forgotten all about that lowly human Batman, who suddenly launch a new, unexpected attack on Zod using stealth alien technology to bypass Zod’s senses and pummel him helpless.

THERE. Wasn’t this dramatic?

THEN you had to get all cute and add that &@#!! impossible scenario!

Man, I started to cuss.

But then I thought about it logically:

In Earth’s future, Zod gets the Miracle Machine from the Legion’s headquarters. In the past, he seals Earth from all outside influence by creating an impassable and indestructable force shield. FURTHER he makes it impossible for any dimensional access to Earth to occur. Now, if it were TRULY an impassable, unbreakable force shield, logically, NOTHING could get through it, no even sunlight. Without sunlight, temperatures would plunge to subzero in a matter of hours and all life on Earth would end in a matter of days. Which means, ultimately, the 1) Legion could not have existed. Which mean the Miracle Machine would either 2a) Not exist or 2b) Not have been in the Legion’s possession. Equally logical, 3) Zod wouldn’t have been able to get the Miracle Machine ANYWAY because thanks to the nature of his wish, Earth would STILL have been surrounded by the force field in the Legion’s future! (The Iron Curtain of Time, if turned on, only means the Legion couldn’t go into their OWN future)

All of this meant (da duh duh DAH) time paradox!!

It is Batman’s clearest proof that Zod’s wishes are doomed to failure, if he could only think of the best tactic.

(Fenris, you could argue Hypertime, the Time Trapper’s ‘bubble dimension’, and all of that, but I think most of us geeks reading this would see that the future Earth and past Earth you described existed in the same time continuum. Especially with Wish #7.)

My current thinking along this lines is simple, and similar to one suggested earlier by E-Sabbath: (Thanks, bud!) Batman, realizing the paradox within MINUTES (hey it took me two days and Batman’s smarter than me), and seeing that Zod is heavily relying on not his own superpowers but a device from the Legion’s era to keep superheroes from stopping him, decides to fight future impossible science with far FAR future impossible science. Ignoring the screams and fears of Gothamites who are now trapped in a sunless world, Batman takes a sample of his most futuristic weapon at hand – the machine-and-superhuman-infecting Solaris Virus from DC ONE MILLION – his one active sample held in an active/inert loop in a small Bat-temporal displacement device that somehow survived the Gotham quake intact and was also somehow passed up by Ra’s Al Ghul’s men when they looted the Batcave for those JLA protocols (For critics who want to argue this, it’s the 21st century Morrison-Batman from DC ONE MILLION, ok? He’s that paranoid. He’s got a centrifuge and a teleporter he built himself, he can’t have a lousy time device? And this version has preserved dangerous doomsday items before, like Starro’s drones)

Batman activates the temporal device to launch itself into orbit and its self-replicating 853rd century virus payload at the last known coordinates of the 30th century Miracle Machine. Since it didn’t take long for Batman to figure any of this out, he only needs to send the machine back… oh… an hour or so at the most, at the exact instance when the force shield is activated.

Irony: thanks to the nature of Zod’s wishes, NOBODY – not even his Zod’s Time Zone buddies – can use their vision powers to peer past the force shield. They have no idea what’s going on on Earth.

Batman’s gambit works! ( Duh.) The device appears in space by Zod. The shoddy and crude engineering represented by the 30th century Miracle Machine is no match for the sheer crippling power of the 853rd century Solaris Virus. Immediately, the MM begins to malfunction. Zod can SEE and FEEL his wishes come undone. Zod pisses his pants. Bad move, the vacuum of space. One by one his ridiculous MM-powered conditions fade… except ONE…

“4) No matter what Batman does, he always loses from now on. And no “Well, he tries to help me so when he loses he hurts me” type crap. His ultimate goal, even if he convinces himself otherwise (via self-hypnosis or that kinda crap) will always fail.”

Well, because Batman’s “ultimate goal” has always been to stop evildoers but to take them alive in the process, and this, is Zod’s fatal flaw in reasoning. As the last lingering effect of the Miracle Machine holds, this aspect of Batman’s plan DOES, in fact, fail. All the other wishes fade, but the Solaris Virus turns from the malfunctioning Miracle Machine… and infects Zod.

Zod immediately passes out in the vacuum of space. Unconscious, he can no longer hold his breath. The vast quantities of air he trapped in his super-efficient super-lungs in order to survive in space escapes his body – and Zod dies from both asphixiation and collapsed lungs.

Ultimately the Solaris Virus takes over the force shield projector and it, too, malfunctions – shutting it down – allowing sunlight to shine over Earth again. Then the virus drifts towards earth.

How Batman manages to stop this rampaging 853rd Solaris virus that now threatens to shut down Earth is a long, boring story I don’t feel like getting into. But he does. By himself. During his lunch break.

Later, Batman relates his story to Superman. Superman can’t believe it. “Zod wasted all that universal potential – all that cosmic power – just to try and stop YOU. Why? What was he so afraid of?”

“Beats me,” said Batman with a shrug. “I’m only human.”

HA!

–Askia

Batfan with the Bat-plan GAHWDAMN, m’man.

There are two flaws in your argument: we’ve seen Braniac use the force field to surround Earth before. Sunlight passes through it just fine and there’s never been any Legion based paradox as a result of it’s use. Also, the Miracle Machine comes from a different dimension and a different time-line, I don’t believe that any problems in Earth-Post Crisis’s future would affect the M Machine, coming from earth’s pre-Crisis future…I don’t buy the idea that they’re in the same continuumn. I could debate based on those two points, but I won’t. …

…Because that was a work of art, man! Debating some nitpicky bits would undermine the art you’ve created. (And I have no doubt that you could plug those holes anyway.) :slight_smile:

I loved the rule-lawyering you did with wish #4 BTW. Remind me to never play D&D with you! :eek: :stuck_out_tongue:

:: applause ::

Fenris

Fenris

Feh. :slight_smile: Nobody noticed why I picked the Rock and Roll museum. (See, if you’re going to mix continuities, stick with one title… it’s been used before in modern LSH, Impulse used it to send a letter to his cousin, XS.)

Also, if you’ve seen modern JLA, the Atom can penetrate force fields by riding photons. Bats could duplicate that effect if needed, so clearly, the wish-upgraded force field would have to prevent that.

Personally, though, the weak point, as analyzed, is the delay between the 21st century and 30th. And, of course, the fact that Batman is always prepared.

Granted, the paradox would only exist if one assumes Zod would keep the force-shield in place. In the light of midday and not posting after I woke up shouting, “Eureka!” at 4am – I realize there’s no real basis for this assumption. But hey, even if you take out the ‘Batman realizes a paradox exists’ it’s still a pretty good working theory.

As far as the force shield thing goes: I have ALWAYS been annoyed by invisible force shields. To my thinking, anything that impenetrable should NOT be transparent or translucent. Why should a force field repel the wavelengths on the ultraviolent and the infrared spectrum and not the narrow, visible spectrum? Anytime I write fanfic, I point out that any force-field porous enough to allow heat, light and sound to get through can ultimately be bypassed. The only ‘totally impenetrable’ force-field should be pitch-black in the visible spectrum.

I will commend you on one thing, Fenris: yours is the first comic-book related challenge in a WHILE that had me scrambling for information in my scattered DC Who’s Who collection. Since I couldn’t PRECISELY remember the origins of the Miracle Machine (is that the same one Miracle machine that once split Superman and Clark Kent into two separate beings?) I fudged as much as I could. But once I remembered the details of DC ONE MILLION (and you obviously didn’t) I realized I had an out. My back-up plan for the Solaris virus was to somehow use the Philosopher’s Stone.

  1. Thanks for the compliment, 2) yeah, I would have found a way to plug up the holes and 3) I always did go for Clintonesque semantics. I AM the Dungeonmaster.

Okay, I’m going to hurt my shoulder patting myself on the back. I’m out.